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My proposal for storm boyz is an add on to Boyz and Nob Unit
For Boyz Rokkit Pack - 4pts each for entire unit. Rokkit Pack counts as Jump Pack in every way
For Nobs (except Nob Boss) - 5pts each for entire unit. Rokkit Pack counts as Jump Pack in every way

Can not take Bikes with Rokkit Packs

Only one unit can become Vulca Boyz and take Zagstuk as a boss for 85 points

Malfunction Yep dis idea awesome to strap untested explosive rokkits to our Back.
Only for their first Jump or when they enter the board, ie deep strike roll the number of d6 to number in Units (except Zagstruk). All 1's the figure doesn't get to Jump (the pack can be fixed by a Mek). If coming in from reserve those figures roll on the Mishap table and are separated from their unit.
Tink like a Mek5pts each for entire unit - reroll malfunction

It Came from Behind If any Storm Boy is removed from the game (even Zagstruk) they explode Str 5 AP3 Blast Template (no deviation), if in Melee No Cover saves.
Kamikaze 5pts - only on the charge, the Storm Boy can detonate his rokkit pack. He any everyone in Blast Radius take Str 5 AP3 No deviation and No cover saves.

Storm Boyz and Nobs have full access to weapons on their list, such as shootas, Big Shootas, and Kombi Weapons

S5/AP3 seems a bit too powerful for a simple exploding rocket pack, not to mention that the fun of the Orks involves stuff like them shooting off fizzing irregularly like an untied balloon before exploding. I'd advise causing dead Stormboyz to scatter and then explode, except it'd all be more complicated and make games longer, which is not exactly ideal.

You might be right, let me double check what the Belchas are rumored to be, I made them the same - which is what I based it on.
remember when they explode they will mostly be hitting their own unit, Kamikaze helps prevent that so I have to take that into account.
It's a push and pull, I don't want to make it so weak that Orks wont die from it nor do I want to make it too strong that their opponent will wipe from it. The Str5 AP 3 is what the new Burnaboyz are going to do. what if I kept the AP at 3, but Lower the Str to 4 - so 50/50 it'll Kill an Ork, but gives other armies, especially vehicles with their Back 10, un harmed by it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I'd advise causing dead Stormboyz to scatter and then explode, except it'd all be more complicated and make games longer, which is not exactly ideal.

Something I want to avoid, I want to make it more random, but easy to play. But I love the spiraling off. hmmm, would it be more complicated to roll scatter 2d6 every time one is killed? I'll have to wait for the weekend o play test it.

Nice idea but the main problems I see:

- Its making them have regular jump packs. One of the only good things about them currently is the fact that they have an extra 1d6 movement over others so they are one of the fastest jump units in the game.

- Malfunction; IMO this actually makes them a lot worse than what they currently are. ATM, if you get a 1 on that compulsory 1d6 roll, one guy dies. So thats only 1 in every 6 movement phases it'll happen. Whereas with this there will always be some who malfunction and its effect is that the whole unit will be limited in it's movement to maintain coherency. And this has an ongoing effect unless a mek fixes it, (is that correct?). So it could really screw up the whole unit if only one fails. The deep strike situation is also problematic as it involves splitting up the unit which isn't really permitted in normal situations.

- It came from behind; again... problematic. Due to the 2" coherency and it being a blast template there are virtually always going to be other models who get hit which kill them off on a 3+ and then they explode in turn. So with no great difficulty a lasgun could shoot in and kill one guy, setting the whole unit off.

- Kamikaze; Too powerful and ultimately domineering. With this sort of option why would you bother to use them any other way?

- Lastly its a purchasable upgrade for a regular ork boy. This means they are troops choices so in theory you could have 6 units for 30 stormboys... Not that I imagine anyone would do it, but its one of those things that I see as being army specific; Things like BA sure, or like bikes becoming troops with a marine biker captain etcetera. I would prefer to keep them in the fast attack slot, but maybe have an HQ option that can take them as troops? Zagstruck... allows one unit of stormboys to be a troops choice or have a rokkit pack as an option for a warboss with the same effect?

Really the only way I could see to run these is as a minimal unit with zagstruck and kamikaze. Because otherwise they'll all die as soon as 1 wounds taken or if they deepstrike without zag, same problem. But it all adds up to be a very expensive unit for a one hit wonder.


In reality, all I would do to 'fix' stormboys is make them 10pts a model. But is that fun as well? YMMV...
I think I can see what you're trying to do but with the exploding packs it makes them very fragile and at the same time very good if they can get to charge (DS+Zag). Ap on the blast is really kind of irrelevant since it would be causing so many wounds and its not scattering. It also makes a few game mechanic issues:
- if one dies to overwatch, at what point is the explosion resolved; before the unit commences charging or after?
- when activating kamikaze does it happen at initiative order? If so do the orks get to pile in 2" on their initiative step before detonating?
- or does kamikaze resolve as a replacement to hammer of wrath? (So it would detonate at I10 step, but the packs cannot be used in the movement phase since they're being used in the charge: this would mean you couldn't DS and kamikaze)
- Does kamikaze effect your own unit like 'it came from behind'?

Hopefully this isn't coming across as too dickish; I'm just trying to highlight all the problems I see with it so they could be fixed and then produce a good 'proposed rule' at the end.
So other than reducing the cost to 10 and keeping the current jet pack rules, the only thing I suggest adding in is a modified HoW. Normally its at base strength (so S3), so how about having it that stormboys have a S5 HoW as an alternative to the kamikaze?



edit; also like the idea of them being able to take the normal weapon options. But I probably wouldn't take is as they'll be running every time so not firing big shootas or rokkits. The only time it would come into play is before the charge seeing as they cannot run then as well. Would flamers be an option? This could make them too good though; deepstrike in a unit, flame then assault all in one turn.

Thank you, I don't think I need to test it.
So scarp the changes, give them back the d6 and the lose one on a roll of 1.

Put in the Rokkit Packs as an option for Nobs and Boyz.

How about on the roll of a 1 throw Scatter 3d6 (reroll cross hairs to an arrow) anything under the blast template takes str4 ap3.

I can't even understand your original d6-to-cause-casualties roll mechanic. What on earth does "roll the number of d6 to number in Units" even mean?

As for the stormboys, I reckon;
>stormboyz can attack aircraft in melee, but treat it as assaulting into dangerous/difficult terrain
>When you use the jump packs to move, roll 1d6. On a 1, one Stormboy has gone out of control - choose any one model in the unit and remove him as a casualty. Place a small blast where the model was and scatter it 3d6. This blast always scatters, if a hit is rolled, you choose the direction. Any model under the blast template after the scatter takes a S4 AP- hit.

Oh man, attacking fliers. I know where you are coming from (ultramarines game?) but on the tabletop I could just see the arguments. Plus, seeing as how pretty much all fliers are AV10 at the rear, stormboys would become on of the best anti air units in the game. Its probably too much of a leap for a proposed rule.

It also seems a bit strange from my point of view that they could attack fliers, especially supersonic ones, from when they are starting on the ground. So how about this:
- A unit of stormboys entering the table via deepstrike can resolve a HoW hit against fliers as long as they deploy along the line the flier moved last turn. Hits resolve as normal against moving vehicles (so 3+).

So they move their flier and you just take note of its flight path. Then anywhere along that you can DS your stormboys squad and the flier takes hits equal to the number of boys in the squad. Since HoW is the unmodified strength and they're strength 3, it'll have to be a modified one so S4. So if you took a unit of 20, it would be 20 S4 attacks on the fliers rear armour, around 13 hit so 2 glances on a standard flier. Its not going to be killing it normally, but since the stormboys can still do stuff on the ground as usual I dont think they should become a definitive flier killer. Otherwise the points would go up too much.

If your DS scatters though... I'm not so sure.

Yeah, please ignore me making something simple overly complicated and defeating the purpose of making them attractive.

So no AP, that works. I agree that they shouldn't be able to deep strike a flier. but if they are in range of a Flier they can attack it. The Flier can overwatch them.

How about if we add Landing to the Storm Boyz? Counts as a movment (so the usual d6 on 1 , 1 is lost). Even if the Flier was destroyed, during the Fliers MV phase, roll 2d6 that equals the number of inches the Stormboys mv in the direction of the Fliers MV. If MC or has vector strike this can be used against the Storm Boyz. If their distance takes them off the board, roll on the mishap table, if they survive they can be redeployed.

Didn't I just propose that exact idea in another thread Sleg?

 Dakkamite wrote:
Didn't I just propose that exact idea in another thread Sleg?

Was it in the Ork 2.0 thread? If it was I have to admit, I'm having a difficult time following a single unit improvement there. The reason I made a separate thread was a selfish one, to make it easier for me to discuss a change, without plowing through 30 messages that have nothing to do with Stormboyz.

what about giving Storm Boyz the same ability as Drop Pods and first Turn Deep Strike?

also a Bosspole or something similar would allow a deviation reroll.

Give them assault from deep strike without costing a fortune and they'll have a place on my list.

Currently when I do run them its in tiny units with a klaw nob. But thats too vulnerable to barrage weapons for my liking

Assaulting after deep striking will always cost heaps. To get it from zagstruck you're paying a bit and the only other unit I can think of offhand which has it are vanguard veterans and they're 30pts each + whatever equipment. Stormboys still function okay as a backfield harasser with only a couple of dudes and a klaw. Similar to minimum marine assault squads.

Overall though I don't think there is much benefit to deepstrike them. If you deploy a unit at the start, it'll often be in charge range on the second turn. If you have deep strike on turn 1 they'll still be standing around till turn 2 before assaulting. Currently you can get zag for a second turn assault provided you get the reserve rolls and placement, but if you added him to a unit with 1st turn deep strike its a unit that can get in melee turn 1. Other than FW lucifer drop pods there's not really anything else that can do it. Even though I play orks and often dreads in my marines I still don't agree with 1st turn assaults. With kommandos and scouts last edition you could sometimes pull off some pretty silly things with them that could screw your opponent over virtually before the game began. Just leave options for T1 assaults to poor deployment from your opponent. At the moment if you deploy 24" away and get a good roll on the rokkit packs a T1 assault is still possible, but ofc depends on deploment.

Pretty sure GW FAQed turn one assaults to simply not be allowed. They needed to nerf some Tyranid (Doom?) and so just said "feth it, no fun allowed T1 assaults for anybody"

Yeah I feel that way about Drop Pods in general. Sure you can't assault first turn, but a pod full of flamers is ok? A Mysetic Spore with a Doom is not absusive? Also you are comparing a single Ork Stormboy (12 points) to a Vanguard Veteran (30 points).
Currently, I would never deep strike my Storm Boyz - My tactic has been to footslog them across the board in a small group. This tactic is worthless, even when I don't roll a 1 as they have always taken fire and then routed 1st turn.
Using Zagstuck to deep strike on the 2nd to 4th turn means losing 12-36 points of Orks before being able to assault the turn they come in.
As is, I would never take Storm Boyz, they have no advantage. Since you are resistance to the changes I've suggested. What would you propose to make them equal to a Drop Pod full of twin link Flamer templates? And if the Storm Boyz aren't the unit to use, What unit in the Ork Army list is?

Grot Bomm Launcha? Cut out the whole assaulty thing altogether and drop a S8 AP3 TL pie plate anywhere on the map.

Dakkamite, I know you love the IA 8 Dread Mob list, but what about us Orks who can't use it or don't have access to it?
I have tried but my group will not budge, Forgeworld is not allowed. Also if you are like me Large Blast will always scatter (I need to check for ammo runts) but a one shot grot bomm scattering is a waste of points.

We know that 3 Stormboyz does not equal 1 Vanguard Veteran. And that Ork do not get a unit equal to Drop Pods and GW thinks that numbers will defend against them, but now that 6th primarily a shooting game, all but 3 weapons in the Orks Arsenal are useless.

It stands to reason that without some sort of a change to stormboyz, they are just taking up space in the codex. Like most of the units in the codex.

Zagstruk is currently the only figure that I know of that can assault the turn he comes in. I'm waiting for someone to tell me that because 6th edition says you can't taking away the only reason I would add Zagstruk to stormboyz, Doing this on 1st turn, I think is an equalizer. Having the ability to attack Flyers makes having them worthwhile. Other than this, they are worthless.

Haha, you guys are fethed then.

Seriously though, I never even use GBL any more. I'm done with competitive tournaments, sworn off them for life ~ this is a beer and pretzels game, to try and play it 'competitively' is an exercise in futility - I 'win' more by having a fun game with units I like than by winning a tournament using a cookie cutter list of units I hate. When I realized that, I was able to cut terrible gak like the GBL from my list because I would no longer need it to counter the terrible gak in other peoples lists.

You should try a biker list man. Feels good to disregard cover ("no area terrain? Sure!"), not care about template weapons, and actually make most of your charges due to that extra 6" of movement. You also no longer need to care about "no assault from reserves" because why would you bother reserving your bikes, or deep striking when you've got 24" of turbo boosted movement?

In an attempt to bring this back to making Storm Boyz Attractive or even a unit you might want to put points into.
I'm going to say this, with the current codex, Only Bikes, Lootas, and Battlewagons are useful, they do not make Orks competitive at all. Every other unit in the codex is a hinderance or just a place to put points you are not using.

Stormboyz currently are right near the bottom. They are Elites, so when you have to choose from Lootas or Nob Bikkers, Stormboyz will lose every time.

So what will make me want to try them over a Loota unit? Assaulting 1st turn? The Ability to attack Flyers? Deep Striking without the fear of losing half the unit?

Stormboyz are fast attack man. They compete with bikes, buggies and koptas for slots. I think you have them confused with Tankbustas - now *that* is an elite noone will ever take in a 'competitive' list

We do have heaps of crap units though, won't disagree with you there. Half of them are just plain suck, and the other half are based off of rules that no longer exist and so have no reason for existing themselves.

Weirdboy: Some people take them for the bonus WAAAGH. Too bad WAAAGH sucks balls and just doesn't do enough even in a Dakkajet list. Needs to be usable in larger numbers, as unit leaders or elites rather than hogging an HQ slot

Tankbustas: A Rokkit Launcha just doesn't cut it for 15 points. As our supposed 'dedicated anti-tank' they're a joke. Could be improved with some bonus when engaging large targets (both vehicles and monsters)

Kommandos: When assault from outflanking and infiltration died, Kommandos died with it.

Slugga Boyz: Ok in a trukk list, fail miserably in foot blobs and even IME in battlewagons.

Warbuggies: Only the Skorcha differentiates them from Deffkoptas. Needs bigger units and probably bigger guns too.

Stormboys: All the reasons you've already given. Essentially, jetpack movement sure as gak isn't worth doubling the price of an already mediocre Slugga Boy.

BlitzaBomma: The bomm is S7, AP4. What the feth were they thinking? All that effort to get it across the map and it will do *nothing* every time. Not to mention the what, 25% chance of suicide when you use it. If the bomm still went off, and the bomm didn't suck, then that would be ok - but the bomm doesn't go off, and the bomm is gak, so it's the worst unit in our codex save perhaps Flash Gits

Looted Wagon: Our equivalent to things like the Doomsday Ark is utterly inferior in every possible way. Don't get me wrong, this is how strong I'd *want* all such artillery pieces to be, but since everyone elses is so much better this thing seriously deserves to be trashed

Flash Gits: Seriously, feth these guys.

And thats just the garbage. Haven't even mentioned the subpar stuff which accounts for all but like five units in the dex, two of which being HQ

We dropped them to 10 points each and allow each unit to have one model upgrade to either a burna, big shoota or rokkit launcha.

You still have to deal with 6th Ed. assault rules, which pretty much blow. But that's another discussion.

Yeah, I must have TankBustas on my brain. I was just talking about them as I put up my post for Stormboyz. I should have said Fast Attack and compared them to warbikes and Dakkajets. I'm going to do a Tankbusta post soon.

So back to Stormboyz - tonight I'm testing them with the 1st turn Zagstruk deep strike assault. I'm bringing 20 Vulca Boyz (plus 1 for Zagstruk). The group I'm up against has 2 Helldrakes. So I'm going to see how they do against a Flyer, using these anti-flyer rules.

I am not testing out the upgrade for boyz and nobs, so my guys are all just slugga boyz with rokkit packs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So what people are saying is that even though Zagstruk clearly says that he can assault the turn he comes in (p. 63). Because the BRB says no assault from reserve - this makes this 85 point boss totally useless. Not that the Stormboyz served any purpose to begin with.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
rules to follow has always been FAQ/Errata; then current Codex; then the 40k Rule Book.
The reason for this is because the army codex does break the rules from the rulebook. Certain units do things that make them special.

So you can't use the rulebook to set rules for the army, especially when the codex contradicts these rules.

My understanding is that whenever the updated codex contradicts the big rule book, you use the codex. I know I read that exact statement in the Warhammer Fantasy rules someplace.

If they updated the codex to no longer say +1 INT in Zagstruk's INT striking power klaw, yet left him able to assault from reserves, then yes, he can assault from reserves

Ok, Play tested the new Storm Boys and I have to admit. they were very cool. even though I lost int, the 1st turn assault worked great. I lost 3 coming in. then lost 5 from difficult terrain, lost 3 more from overwatch and severely wounded one of 2 Canifexs (but locked them into melee. leaving me with 5 and Zagstruk. Fortunantly I was able to get 1st blood with my Nob Bikkers killing Doom, while my Stormboyz were lock in melee. turn 2, Killed a Carifex leaving just Zagstruk to face off against the Carnifex. Nob Bikkers started their mow and even though they lost 3 they got into melee with the Hive Tyrant. My SAG actually hit the Tyrant with an 11 (a little banter about deviating 11, rolled it anyway and still cause only a single wound).
Also to note that my Kannons against Termagaunts did nothing. even after in 2 turns not deviating. I had the unfortunate pleasure of rolling 6 1's the first turn and 8 1's and 2's the second. The Mysetic Spore, tried in vain to do something, but I had ignored it too long. 3rd turn SAG rolled a 4 str and it deviated away from the spore. the 3 shots from the Kannons all hit and all glanced. Carnifex Killed Zagsturk but had 2 wounds. Bikes Killed Tyrant at the Top of 3 and then Shot and killed the Carnifex. The Trygon finally rolled doubles and stopped spitting out Termagaunts. Turn 4, Termaguants swarm the Bikes. SAG rolls a 7 and wounds the Trygon, Kannons once again deal 3 more wounds. Bikes start killing Termaguants in droves, I lose only 2 more, leaving me with 6 at this point.
Turn 5 game continues, the 4 remaining units of Termagaunts are all engaged in melee with the Bikes, My SAG and Kannons do nothing. I lose 3 bikes and wipe out 1 unit and tried to shoot at a fleeing unit (we argued over doing this since I was engaged with 2 other units) we ending up just letting them flee. turn 6 game continues, Bikes take a loss and both units flee, I get to shoot at one of the units removing them from the board. The Bikes shoot at one of the units wiping them out and the SAG and Kannons shoot at the Fleeing unit destroy the remaining unit. Nids tabled.

So what does this have to do with Stormboyz, well if I can do the 1st turn assault, I will take them again, if I can get another power claw, I can't see not taking them. They didn't seem to be the overpowering force, they still are expensive for what little they did, but worth it. My Opponent didn't see them as abusive and in fact it was a change of pace from my usual. It was also the first time he saw me use the SAG and by far he thinks it's way to overpowered. So the House Rule for it, is that it always deviates (even double 1's) which with ammo runts is fine by me. If I roll double 5's and the hole is not over a figure, my unit does not teleport. I told him I would take that any day and twice on Sunday - He still thinks he's getting the better deal. He'll change his mind when I roll double 2's and force it to deviate off the target he chose.