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for reasons unknown every C'tan that has ever existed came back suddenly at full power. Which side would rule the galaxy?

The official term is "a new eye of terror" so about a 10k light year wide space of the galaxy is consumed in a warp storm. The rest keeps on trucking.

Also Chaos can be defeated, by simply killing all the mortals who feed it, as fewer can contribute to the system, the warp storms should shrink as the power of Chaos diminishes, exposing more mortals to be killed and further shrink them until everyone is dead and the warp is silent.

The official term is not a new Eye of Terror, it's the galaxy.

I'd suppose it depends on how quickly consumes it, if it's slow the C'tan might have a chance.

Animus wrote:
The official term is not a new Eye of Terror, it's the galaxy.

I'd suppose it depends on how quickly consumes it, if it's slow the C'tan might have a chance.

You can slow it down by wantonly massacring everyone. How can you do that? Trip the celestial orrery and detonate every star in the galaxy.

Everyone dies.

 Kain wrote:

You can slow it down by wantonly massacring everyone. How can you do that? Trip the celestial orrery and detonate every star in the galaxy.

Everyone dies.

Quite possibly including the ones who tripped the Celestial Orrery, semi-immortal construct though they may be. Without knowing the ramifications, I'm not sure it's applicable (suicide to kill everyone generally isn't a good idea).

Besides the fact it's entirely possible that the forces of Chaos would manage to survive within the Warp-overlap that has been created. Stranger things have happened. Indeed, we don't know how the Celestial Orrery works. It might be that something has to go to destroy the star itself, or that the signal can be blocked. There are far too many unknowns for it to definitely be an "I win" button.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Kain wrote:

You can slow it down by wantonly massacring everyone. How can you do that? Trip the celestial orrery and detonate every star in the galaxy.

Everyone dies.

Quite possibly including the ones who tripped the Celestial Orrery, semi-immortal construct though they may be. Without knowing the ramifications, I'm not sure it's applicable (suicide to kill everyone generally isn't a good idea).

Besides the fact it's entirely possible that the forces of Chaos would manage to survive within the Warp-overlap that has been created. Stranger things have happened. Indeed, we don't know how the Celestial Orrery works. It might be that something has to go to destroy the star itself, or that the signal can be blocked. There are far too many unknowns for it to definitely be an "I win" button.

The forces of Chaos die without mortals to feed them, which is why the best plan to kill off Chaos is to slaughter everyone, as less people feed into the warp, Chaos grows weaker and the warp storms should calm. Killing off every star in the galaxy should kill off so many that the warp storms should shrink massively and leave many, many more people to kill. You keep on killing more and more people as Chaos grows weaker and weaker until it dies altogether as the last being with a soul perishes.

 Kain wrote:

The forces of Chaos die without mortals to feed them, which is why the best plan to kill off Chaos is to slaughter everyone, as less people feed into the warp, Chaos grows weaker and the warp storms should calm. Killing off every star in the galaxy should kill off so many that the warp storms should shrink massively and leave many, many more people to kill. You keep on killing more and more people as Chaos grows weaker and weaker until it dies altogether as the last being with a soul perishes.

Like I said, we don't know how the Celestial Orrery works. We don't know if you can just destroy every star instantaneously, if you have to wait for a while between turning of each light, if a physical device has to near the star, there is a certain signal (of sorts) sent to the star, if the star is pumped full of energy (I don't actually know if that would cause a star to supernova but hey) or many of possibilities. We also don't know the timescale involved. For all we know it could take thousands of years for the first star to go supernova and only then can you move onto the next one or if it can be stopped by either technological or Warp-based means.

Even if all the stars could be targeted at the same time, we don't know if the Ruinous Powers could intervene to either sustain their worshipers through other means or keep the stars going. Should a galaxy-wide Eye of Terror form the Ruinous Powers would be bloated on huge amounts of power. Their ability to affect the galaxy would reach new heights.

Sure, it's possible that the Celestial Orrery would end them as a meaningful threat, but I don't think it can be counted on as the be all and end all.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Kain wrote:

The forces of Chaos die without mortals to feed them, which is why the best plan to kill off Chaos is to slaughter everyone, as less people feed into the warp, Chaos grows weaker and the warp storms should calm. Killing off every star in the galaxy should kill off so many that the warp storms should shrink massively and leave many, many more people to kill. You keep on killing more and more people as Chaos grows weaker and weaker until it dies altogether as the last being with a soul perishes.

Like I said, we don't know how the Celestial Orrery works. We don't know if you can just destroy every star instantaneously, if you have to wait for a while between turning of each light, if a physical device has to near the star, there is a certain signal (of sorts) sent to the star, if the star is pumped full of energy (I don't actually know if that would cause a star to supernova but hey) or many of possibilities. We also don't know the timescale involved. For all we know it could take thousands of years for the first star to go supernova and only then can you move onto the next one or if it can be stopped by either technological or Warp-based means.

Even if all the stars could be targeted at the same time, we don't know if the Ruinous Powers could intervene to either sustain their worshipers through other means or keep the stars going. Should a galaxy-wide Eye of Terror form the Ruinous Powers would be bloated on huge amounts of power. Their ability to affect the galaxy would reach new heights.

Sure, it's possible that the Celestial Orrery would end them as a meaningful threat, but I don't think it can be counted on as the be all and end all.

The ruinous powers don't care to intervene except for the lulz. They care very little about the Materium as it is far less interesting than their jockeying for power amongst each other. For all we know they may just do nothing about every star dying and all their sources of food perishing, even if it means their own destruction. I mean, we already know that one of the Chaos Gods (Tzeentch) is indeed self destructive in action and behavior.

Activate Ze Pylons!

They have ways of separating the warp from the mateirium and im sure magic space gods have other ways of deal with other magic space gods.

Do the Chaos powers die though if you wipe out mortal life?

The 4th ed Chaos Codex seems to say nothing about needing mortals to live, just that the emotion of mortals feeds them and nurtures their power. Also that they can only grow by the actions and thoughts of mortals.

It also goes on to say that souls of Chaos followers are consumed by the power that they followed, increasing its power eternally.

Wiping out all Mortal life in the materium would be a serious kick in the space balls for the Chaos Gods but I don't believe it would be the end of them, they would still be able to wage their own wars for ever in the Realm of Chaos but their power would be greatly reduced certainly. There also wouldn't be anyone else to influence to do their dirty work in the physical plane. But if there isn't anyone left, why would they need to?

On the initial post, I don't actually know. Warp energy was the main weapon against the C'tan if I recall, but the C'tan were master of the physical, it would be a hell of a battle.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Do the Chaos powers die though if you wipe out mortal life?

The 4th ed Chaos Codex seems to say nothing about needing mortals to live, just that the emotion of mortals feeds them and nurtures their power. Also that they can only grow by the actions and thoughts of mortals.

It also goes on to say that souls of Chaos followers are consumed by the power that they followed, increasing its power eternally.

Wiping out all Mortal life in the materium would be a serious kick in the space balls for the Chaos Gods but I don't believe it would be the end of them, they would still be able to wage their own wars for ever in the Realm of Chaos but their power would be greatly reduced certainly. There also wouldn't be anyone else to influence to do their dirty work in the physical plane. But if there isn't anyone left, why would they need to?

On the initial post, I don't actually know. Warp energy was the main weapon against the C'tan if I recall, but the C'tan were master of the physical, it would be a hell of a battle.

I think you'd only have to purge life in the milky way rather than the entire universe as a whole. Or else I'm sure they would have told their followers "hey there's this massive swarm of bugs that's eaten a dozen galaxies full of our followers, would you be a dear and sit your asses to the east side of the galaxy and make sure they don't eat this one? K thnx bai."

The C'Tan, even if they are not sharded, are nothing compared to a Chaos God. They struggled to defeat the Old Ones (and may have even been defeated by them once) and were then sharded by the Necrons. Immortal beings of limitless powers with inexhaustible armies who find the hyper-dimensional shenanigans of the favored slaves of the C'Tan merely new flavors of reality to corrupt... well, the C'Tan aren't really much of anything to them.

 Psienesis wrote:
The C'Tan, even if they are not sharded, are nothing compared to a Chaos God. They struggled to defeat the Old Ones (and may have even been defeated by them once) and were then sharded by the Necrons. Immortal beings of limitless powers with inexhaustible armies who find the hyper-dimensional shenanigans of the favored slaves of the C'Tan merely new flavors of reality to corrupt... well, the C'Tan aren't really much of anything to them.

The weapons that shattered the C'tan were described as "Universal" in scale. Taken literally this is dozens of orders of magnitude above anything Chaos has ever been shown as capable of as it would require a Type 3 civilization's entire power output or more. And we have enough evidence that shows that typically Matt Ward means what he writes very literally.

Come now, Chaos can't be defeated

When enough energy has been accumulated and a Chaos God has been born, it's self sustainable and self aware. That's what makes it different from mighty Daemon entities, just like when the extreme complex and intelligent robot becomes self aware.

Don't take this post seriously but I know none the less that many don't regard Chaos as 100% relying on feeling and consciousness of material being.

Does a C'Tan have presence in the Warp? Does Chaos Gods just consume souls, what about consuming C'Tans? If Slaanesh becomes stronger when ever he/she consumes Eldar souls, then surely the Chaos Gods must be swelling if they got just a fraction of the souls, when the rest of the beings in the Galaxy got erased?

 Psienesis wrote:
The C'Tan, even if they are not sharded, are nothing compared to a Chaos God. They struggled to defeat the Old Ones (and may have even been defeated by them once) and were then sharded by the Necrons. Immortal beings of limitless powers with inexhaustible armies who find the hyper-dimensional shenanigans of the favored slaves of the C'Tan merely new flavors of reality to corrupt... well, the C'Tan aren't really much of anything to them.

I approve of this message.

Chaospling wrote:
Come now, Chaos can't be defeated

When enough energy has been accumulated and a Chaos God has been born, it's self sustainable and self aware. That's what makes it different from mighty Daemon entities, just like when the extreme complex and intelligent robot becomes self aware.

Don't take this post seriously but I know none the less that many don't regard Chaos as 100% relying on feeling and consciousness of material being.

Does a C'Tan have presence in the Warp? Does Chaos Gods just consume souls, what about consuming C'Tans? If Slaanesh becomes stronger when ever he/she consumes Eldar souls, then surely the Chaos Gods must be swelling if they got just a fraction of the souls, when the rest of the beings in the Galaxy got erased?
.

The C'tan have no warp presence. At all.

 Kain wrote:

The ruinous powers don't care to intervene except for the lulz. They care very little about the Materium as it is far less interesting than their jockeying for power amongst each other. For all we know they may just do nothing about every star dying and all their sources of food perishing, even if it means their own destruction. I mean, we already know that one of the Chaos Gods (Tzeentch) is indeed self destructive in action and behavior.

The Ruinous Powers intervened against the Emperor. I'm not sure if it was stated as fact that it was because the Emperor was a threat to them but it is the only time we've seen all of the big four act in concert for such a long period of time. Tzeentch counters his own plots but he isn't so self-destructive so as to result in his own destruction.

The weapons that shattered the C'tan were described as "Universal" in scale. Taken literally this is dozens of orders of magnitude above anything Chaos has ever been shown as capable of as it would require a Type 3 civilization's entire power output or more.

Chaos has never had the power it would if the entirety of humanity succumbed to it. We also haven't seen the extent of their power with in the Eye of Terror, which is a whole different ball game (as well as having plentiful worshipers to help bring their power to the Materium throughout the galaxy rather than them mostly being restricted in either number or position) .

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Kain wrote:

The ruinous powers don't care to intervene except for the lulz. They care very little about the Materium as it is far less interesting than their jockeying for power amongst each other. For all we know they may just do nothing about every star dying and all their sources of food perishing, even if it means their own destruction. I mean, we already know that one of the Chaos Gods (Tzeentch) is indeed self destructive in action and behavior.

The Ruinous Powers intervened against the Emperor. I'm not sure if it was stated as fact that it was because the Emperor was a threat to them but it is the only time we've seen all of the big four act in concert for such a long period of time. Tzeentch counters his own plots but he isn't so self-destructive so as to result in his own destruction.

The weapons that shattered the C'tan were described as "Universal" in scale. Taken literally this is dozens of orders of magnitude above anything Chaos has ever been shown as capable of as it would require a Type 3 civilization's entire power output or more.

Chaos has never had the power it would if the entirety of humanity succumbed to it. We also haven't seen the extent of their power with in the Eye of Terror, which is a whole different ball game (as well as having plentiful worshipers to help bring their power to the Materium throughout the galaxy rather than them mostly being restricted in either number or position) .

And here in lies the problem, we have no idea what the C'tan at their peak were like other than that a mere shard of the Void Dragon very nearly defeated the Emperor himself, and we have no idea what the Emperor dying would actually do other than some seemingly hyperbolic statements.

I know that we have to follow the cannon background but the writers really have to be careful around Chaos because Chaos could easily consist of limitless energy. In the materium a certain amount of matter consists of certain amount of energy. A persons mind and feelings wouldn't have any bounds. A single puny person could contain the rage enough to give birth to 1000 Bloodthirsters. Where are the bounds?

Chaospling wrote:
I know that we have to follow the cannon background but the writers really have to be careful around Chaos because Chaos could easily consist of limitless energy. In the materium a certain amount of matter consists of certain amount of energy. A persons mind and feelings wouldn't have any bounds. A single puny person could contain the rage enough to give birth to 1000 Bloodthirsters. Where are the bounds?

Daemons are shards of the gods themselves. Each daemon represents a small investment on the deity's part. With lesser daemons it's probably microscopic, with greater daemons that's getting somewhere, with daemon primarchs and lords? Well, Khorne hasn't tried to one up An'ggrath and Angron yet has he?

 Kain wrote:

And here in lies the problem, we have no idea what the C'tan at their peak were like other than that a mere shard of the Void Dragon very nearly defeated the Emperor himself, and we have no idea what the Emperor dying would actually do other than some seemingly hyperbolic statements.

That is an incorrect statement.

The Void Dragon and The Emperor fighting was written before the rewriting of the Necrons. The Emperor did not fight a 'shard', He fought the Void Dragon, he then beat snot out of it and buried it's ass under a mountain on mars, and the Void Dragon was supposed to be the most powerful of the remaining four C'tan.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 Kain wrote:

And here in lies the problem, we have no idea what the C'tan at their peak were like other than that a mere shard of the Void Dragon very nearly defeated the Emperor himself, and we have no idea what the Emperor dying would actually do other than some seemingly hyperbolic statements.

That is an incorrect statement.

The Void Dragon and The Emperor fighting was written before the rewriting of the Necrons. The Emperor did not fight a 'shard', He fought the Void Dragon, he then beat snot out of it and buried it's ass under a mountain on mars, and the Void Dragon was supposed to be the most powerful of the remaining four C'tan.

And it was retconned into a shard. And he only won by exploiting a chink in the armor and would have otherwise lost the fight.

Deal with it.

 Kain wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 Kain wrote:

And here in lies the problem, we have no idea what the C'tan at their peak were like other than that a mere shard of the Void Dragon very nearly defeated the Emperor himself, and we have no idea what the Emperor dying would actually do other than some seemingly hyperbolic statements.

That is an incorrect statement.

The Void Dragon and The Emperor fighting was written before the rewriting of the Necrons. The Emperor did not fight a 'shard', He fought the Void Dragon, he then beat snot out of it and buried it's ass under a mountain on mars, and the Void Dragon was supposed to be the most powerful of the remaining four C'tan.

And it was retconned into a shard. And he only won by exploiting a chink in the armor and would have otherwise lost the fight.

Deal with it.

"In the memories of the Dragon of Mars it is said that he waged war against his own kind, which left him in a weakened state, so he hid on Terra. - this could possibly refer to the older canon materials which state that the C'tan warred amongst themselves (or post ret-con the Necron uprising against the C'tan)." - Lexicanum, referencing 'Mechanicum' by Graham McNeil.

So, the Void Dragon may have not be sundered when the newly retconned necron codex was written... Unless you have a clearly written statement saying The Emperor fought with a shard of the Void Dragon in ancient Libya, you deal with it, sunshine...


Also: 'Deal with it'... what the feth? Do you even lift?

 Kain wrote:

And here in lies the problem, we have no idea what the C'tan at their peak were like other than that a mere shard of the Void Dragon very nearly defeated the Emperor himself, and we have no idea what the Emperor dying would actually do other than some seemingly hyperbolic statements.

Yeah, that's true. We don't know the how close the Emperor actually came to death or to losing though. He can clearly survive far more than a normal human can in terms of both physical and psychic attacks (as evidenced by the fight against Horus). It's entirely possible that the damage done to him was purely superficial.

I also wouldn't take that telling as wholly factual either, but that might just be me.

Well, Khorne hasn't tried to one up An'ggrath and Angron yet has he?

On the other hand, Daemons are often described as endless and Daemons that are too powerful struggle a great deal to enter real-space. We don't really know the comparison of power from Warp to Materium. There could be much more 'energy' in the Immaterium than the Warp and vice versa. We simply don't know and neither do we know how much of that power the Ruinous Powers could project into the Materium if they had to. The only time Chaos has had a concerted attempt to alter the affairs of the real world they succeeded in their primary goal.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 Kain wrote:

And here in lies the problem, we have no idea what the C'tan at their peak were like other than that a mere shard of the Void Dragon very nearly defeated the Emperor himself, and we have no idea what the Emperor dying would actually do other than some seemingly hyperbolic statements.

That is an incorrect statement.

The Void Dragon and The Emperor fighting was written before the rewriting of the Necrons. The Emperor did not fight a 'shard', He fought the Void Dragon, he then beat snot out of it and buried it's ass under a mountain on mars, and the Void Dragon was supposed to be the most powerful of the remaining four C'tan.

And it was retconned into a shard. And he only won by exploiting a chink in the armor and would have otherwise lost the fight.

Deal with it.

"In the memories of the Dragon of Mars it is said that he waged war against his own kind, which left him in a weakened state, so he hid on Terra. - this could possibly refer to the older canon materials which state that the C'tan warred amongst themselves (or post ret-con the Necron uprising against the C'tan)." - Lexicanum, referencing 'Mechanicum' by Graham McNeil.

So, the Void Dragon may have not be sundered when the newly retconned necron codex was written... Unless you have a clearly written statement saying The Emperor fought with a shard of the Void Dragon in ancient Libya, you deal with it, sunshine...


Also: 'Deal with it'... what the feth? Do you even lift?

The Codex unambiguously states that all C'tan are sharded, no exceptions.

Let's dial it back a notch or two please gents

Thanks !

 Kain wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 Kain wrote:

And here in lies the problem, we have no idea what the C'tan at their peak were like other than that a mere shard of the Void Dragon very nearly defeated the Emperor himself, and we have no idea what the Emperor dying would actually do other than some seemingly hyperbolic statements.

That is an incorrect statement.

The Void Dragon and The Emperor fighting was written before the rewriting of the Necrons. The Emperor did not fight a 'shard', He fought the Void Dragon, he then beat snot out of it and buried it's ass under a mountain on mars, and the Void Dragon was supposed to be the most powerful of the remaining four C'tan.

And it was retconned into a shard. And he only won by exploiting a chink in the armor and would have otherwise lost the fight.

Deal with it.

"In the memories of the Dragon of Mars it is said that he waged war against his own kind, which left him in a weakened state, so he hid on Terra. - this could possibly refer to the older canon materials which state that the C'tan warred amongst themselves (or post ret-con the Necron uprising against the C'tan)." - Lexicanum, referencing 'Mechanicum' by Graham McNeil.

So, the Void Dragon may have not be sundered when the newly retconned necron codex was written... Unless you have a clearly written statement saying The Emperor fought with a shard of the Void Dragon in ancient Libya, you deal with it, sunshine...


Also: 'Deal with it'... what the feth? Do you even lift?

The Codex unambiguously states that all C'tan are sharded, no exceptions.

Right, so you 'filled in the gaps'... Gotcha.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 Kain wrote:

And here in lies the problem, we have no idea what the C'tan at their peak were like other than that a mere shard of the Void Dragon very nearly defeated the Emperor himself, and we have no idea what the Emperor dying would actually do other than some seemingly hyperbolic statements.

That is an incorrect statement.

The Void Dragon and The Emperor fighting was written before the rewriting of the Necrons. The Emperor did not fight a 'shard', He fought the Void Dragon, he then beat snot out of it and buried it's ass under a mountain on mars, and the Void Dragon was supposed to be the most powerful of the remaining four C'tan.

And it was retconned into a shard. And he only won by exploiting a chink in the armor and would have otherwise lost the fight.

Deal with it.

"In the memories of the Dragon of Mars it is said that he waged war against his own kind, which left him in a weakened state, so he hid on Terra. - this could possibly refer to the older canon materials which state that the C'tan warred amongst themselves (or post ret-con the Necron uprising against the C'tan)." - Lexicanum, referencing 'Mechanicum' by Graham McNeil.

So, the Void Dragon may have not be sundered when the newly retconned necron codex was written... Unless you have a clearly written statement saying The Emperor fought with a shard of the Void Dragon in ancient Libya, you deal with it, sunshine...


Also: 'Deal with it'... what the feth? Do you even lift?

The Codex unambiguously states that all C'tan are sharded, no exceptions.

Right, so you 'filled in the gaps'... Gotcha.

I'm just going with what Matt says is canon, and if he says that all the C'tan were sharded 60 million years before the GEoM was so much as a sperm in his father's sack then that's what it is.

 Kain wrote:

I'm just going with what Matt says is canon, and if he says that all the C'tan were sharded 60 million years before the GEoM was so much as a sperm in his father's sack Mankind was anything more progressed than tiny fething rodents eating fething ants then that's what it is.

FTFY.

Premise A: The C'Tan were sharded ~60 million years before M41 (something like M-60,000).
Premise B: The Emperor had difficulty fighting the C'Tan creature in M1.

Conclusion: The Emperor had difficulty fighting a C'Tan shard.

Nothing added anywhere.

The current Necron Codex allows you to "build your own C'Tan Shard". One of the powers you can choose for your Shard is the control of machines and mechanics that is said to be the sphere of influence possessed by the Void Dragon.

Since you can buy this trait for any C'Tan Shard, this implies that the Void Dragon is sharded.

 Kain wrote:

I'm just going with what Matt says is canon, and if he says that all the C'tan were sharded 60 million years before the GEoM was so much as a sperm in his father's sack then that's what it is.

He at no stage says 'every single c'tan' and the book Mechanicum states that the dragon had fled to earth to lick his wounds following a conflict with others of his kind. No timeframe is given for this.

You have no statement that the void dragon was not removed from the fight before the war with the old ones or before the Silent King's betrayal and that therefore the possibility exists it was the last whole c'tan.

Everything you've offered up as gospel is, in fact, your conjecture.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Premise A: The C'Tan were sharded ~60 million years before M41 (something like M-60,000).
Premise B: The Emperor had difficulty fighting the C'Tan creature in M1.

Conclusion: The Emperor had difficulty fighting a C'Tan shard.

Nothing added anywhere.

What date did the dragon arrive on earth? Was it the same date the Emperor fought it, or is the date the Emperor fought it not relevant to the date it fled warring it's own kind?

You have added, you have added the premise that the date the Emperor fought the Dragon matters to when the Dragon left the other c'tan to hide on earth.

Psienesis wrote:The current Necron Codex allows you to "build your own C'Tan Shard". One of the powers you can choose for your Shard is the control of machines and mechanics that is said to be the sphere of influence possessed by the Void Dragon.
Since you can buy this trait for any C'Tan Shard, this implies that the Void Dragon is sharded.

Said by whom? It was said in the old codex, that is now superceded by the new one. Also, all C'tan might have influence over machines, some other C'tan might have influence over machines or only the Void Dragon might, there is no implication.

Khorne is the god of war, do no other chaos gods have armies?

The codex says 'their abilities are many and varied, often harking back to those their parent-entities enjoyed' - often means not always.