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So I watched a few games at my local independent gaming store this weekend & I watched a IG player go against a Tau player. The IG player attempted to issue Bring It Down order on the Tau Riptide, but the Tau player said because it was accompanied by drones he could not. He said the same was true of Hive Tyrants accompanied by smaller tyranids. Is he correct? Basically the only time this order can be issued is against monstrous creatures that are by themselves/lone vehicles & or vehicles squadrons?

I think this goes in YMDC...

The reason Bring it Down doesn't work on a Hive Tyrant with Tyrant Guard is because it's a Tyrant Guard unit (Infantry) with a Hive Tyrant attached to it as what is essentially an independent character, so you're firing at an infantry unit, not a monstrous creature unit, so if Riptides + drones work the same way, the tau player's right, if not it depends on the wording of the codex.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
The reason Bring it Down doesn't work on a Hive Tyrant with Tyrant Guard is because it's a Tyrant Guard unit (Infantry) with a Hive Tyrant attached to it as what is essentially an independent character, so you're firing at an infantry unit, not a monstrous creature unit, so if Riptides + drones work the same way, the tau player's right, if not it depends on the wording of the codex.

The guard codex is really getting on in years, isn't it even older than the nid one? Maybe they didn't know to account for this.

And it says 'or monstrous creature (or unit of monstrous creatures)'. So no real help there.

Commissar Benny wrote:
So I watched a few games at my local independent gaming store this weekend & I watched a IG player go against a Tau player. The IG player attempted to issue Bring It Down order on the Tau Riptide, but the Tau player said because it was accompanied by drones he could not. He said the same was true of Hive Tyrants accompanied by smaller tyranids. Is he correct? Basically the only time this order can be issued is against monstrous creatures that are by themselves/lone vehicles & or vehicles squadrons?

The rule for Bring it Down! is as follows

If the order is successfully issued, choose one enemy vehicle (or squadron of enemy vehicles) or monstrous creature (or unit of monstrous creatures) visible to the officer. The ordered unit immediately shoots at the nominated target, counting their weapons as twin-linked.

It says unit of monstrous creatures, so that's looking like a no. That feels really wrong though, like we should still be able to do the order.

If I was a commander, I wouldn't discount the order to bring it down just because there are tiny drones flying around it.

But we can argue RAI vs RAW all day long. For now, it's probably safe to play it as no, you can't if they have drones (which sucks, because that's one of the few tricks my foot IG has for dealing with those things.)

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I agree with MrMoustaffa in that it should be able to, but because it is pretty vague in codex that for time being that its a no. Perhaps they will address it in the next update.

Not sure if you should post whole rules here, it is generally avoided as much as possible.

Still the reason the ability can not be used is pretty simple, from a Rules as Written perspective. The rule itself only allows you to target monstrous creatures, flying monstrous creatures or vehicles, clearly designed to give additional firepower against these harder foes. Should it be used on mixed units, it is highly likely that it would create additional hits that would then be resolved against unit types that where not named in the rule. As there is no way to ensure the extra hits are directed only at the unit type allowed, the whole rule has to be discarded as the limitations can not be met.

It is clearly an oversight, compounded by old-codex-syndrome, which is why I hope imperial guards gain a new codex sometime in the near future.

The Riptide's attached drones have caused a couple of rules conundrums so far. I hope they get FAQ'd soon.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

Commissar Benny wrote:
So I watched a few games at my local independent gaming store this weekend & I watched a IG player go against a Tau player. The IG player attempted to issue Bring It Down order on the Tau Riptide, but the Tau player said because it was accompanied by drones he could not. He said the same was true of Hive Tyrants accompanied by smaller tyranids. Is he correct? Basically the only time this order can be issued is against monstrous creatures that are by themselves/lone vehicles & or vehicles squadrons?

The rule for Bring it Down! is as follows

If the order is successfully issued, choose one enemy vehicle (or squadron of enemy vehicles) or monstrous creature (or unit of monstrous creatures) visible to the officer. The ordered unit immediately shoots at the nominated target, counting their weapons as twin-linked.

It says unit of monstrous creatures, so that's looking like a no. That feels really wrong though, like we should still be able to do the order.

If I was a commander, I wouldn't discount the order to bring it down just because there are tiny drones flying around it.

But we can argue RAI vs RAW all day long. For now, it's probably safe to play it as no, you can't if they have drones (which sucks, because that's one of the few tricks my foot IG has for dealing with those things.)

If a riptide is dumb enough to bring drones, shoot them out and watch him flee. If he is not, you've still got Bring it Down!

 Purifier wrote:
[

If a riptide is dumb enough to bring drones, shoot them out and watch him flee. If he is not, you've still got Bring it Down!

If your opponent has a riptide and two drones and wants to play that ticky tacky....

OK. 2 drones means majority toughness is 4?

Pretty much. DSing stormies can insta gib the riptide in that scenario if they aren't intercepted to death (assuming that they have meltas)

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

Commissar Benny wrote:
So I watched a few games at my local independent gaming store this weekend & I watched a IG player go against a Tau player. The IG player attempted to issue Bring It Down order on the Tau Riptide, but the Tau player said because it was accompanied by drones he could not. He said the same was true of Hive Tyrants accompanied by smaller tyranids. Is he correct? Basically the only time this order can be issued is against monstrous creatures that are by themselves/lone vehicles & or vehicles squadrons?

The rule for Bring it Down! is as follows

If the order is successfully issued, choose one enemy vehicle (or squadron of enemy vehicles) or monstrous creature (or unit of monstrous creatures) visible to the officer. The ordered unit immediately shoots at the nominated target, counting their weapons as twin-linked.

It says unit of monstrous creatures, so that's looking like a no. That feels really wrong though, like we should still be able to do the order.

If I was a commander, I wouldn't discount the order to bring it down just because there are tiny drones flying around it.

But we can argue RAI vs RAW all day long. For now, it's probably safe to play it as no, you can't if they have drones (which sucks, because that's one of the few tricks my foot IG has for dealing with those things.)

"BRING THAT XENOS ABOMINATION DOWN!"

"We can't sir!"

"By the Emperor, why not?"

"It's got...*gulp* DRONES!"

"Drones!? THRONE ON TERRA WE'RE ALL DOOMED! SAVE YOURSELVES FOOLS! RUN! RUUUUUNNNNNNN!!!"

"Heheh, silly Gue'la."

^I probably laughed harder then I should have at that

 Green is Best! wrote:
OK. 2 drones means majority toughness is 4?

The drones that you can get to accompany the Riptide are T6.

For applying the rule... it depends on how you parse the sentence, but surely you fulfil the requirement of targeting a monstrous creature? It doesn't say "the entire unit must be monstrous creatures". Ergo, Bring It Down still allows you to target the MC alone.
That, of course, then plays havoc with wound allocation especially if it's not the nearest in the unit... but I don't think we can count it as a flat "no" just yet.

 Super Ready wrote:

The drones that you can get to accompany the Riptide are T6.

I am not trying to be snippy here, but what causes this?
Does the riptide have drones with a separate entry from normal drones?
Is there a rule for drones saying this?

Thanks,

Green is Best! wrote:

OK. 2 drones means majority toughness is 4?

Given the HEavy missile drones are specified as T6, no the majority toughness is NOT 4.

motyak wrote:Pretty much. DSing stormies can insta gib the riptide in that scenario if they aren't intercepted to death (assuming that they have meltas)

Wrong, for the reason mentioned above AND for the fact the iD works off the toughness of the model the unsaved wound is applied to, NOT the majority T of the unit.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

motyak wrote:Pretty much. DSing stormies can insta gib the riptide in that scenario if they aren't intercepted to death (assuming that they have meltas)

Wrong, for the reason mentioned above AND for the fact the iD works off the toughness of the model the unsaved wound is applied to, NOT the majority T of the unit.

Huh. That's sure interesting to learn. It's never cone up for me yet, but I'll be sure to remember it if that comes up.

Are you not still targeting the monstrous creature though? And the other units just have a special rule that means they intercept?

I get it that its a competitive game but it just takes away the spirit of the game if you would argue something like this.

No, you are shooting a "unit". That unit is not a unit of monstrous creatures, nor is it a single unit of "MC". It is currently neither.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, you are shooting a "unit". That unit is not a unit of monstrous creatures, nor is it a single unit of "MC". It is currently neither.

So is it correct to simply call a riptide unit "Jetpack"? I mean, that's the only typing that the two share...

Yep, its "jetpack *something*"

The something is undefined

Christopher300 wrote:
it just takes away the spirit of the game if you would argue something like this.

Agreed, but this is YMDC, and that's what YMDC is for.
And if no consensus can be found ("Yeah, that sounds reasonable. I'll allow you to shoot that at my riptide.") then you have to go by the letter. And that's what YMDC does.

Can you choose to focus fire to only target the riptide, or do the rules of "Bring it Down!" cause it to still fail?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, you are shooting a "unit". That unit is not a unit of monstrous creatures, nor is it a single unit of "MC". It is currently neither.

Not true in the case of Bring it Down!. Initially it doesn't say "target" or "perform a shooting attack", the rule says "choose". Only once that choice is made are we told to shoot at the "nominated target".
Having made that realisation, I'd actually argue that RAW you can specifically pick out a particular MC from a unit of MCs if you really wanted to, though I don't believe that's the intent.

You target units. By definition if you are shooting a nominated target, the target is a unit.

Nilok -focus fire is cover saves. No other application.

What's the unit type of a Riptide unit with drones?

rigeld2 wrote:
What's the unit type of a Riptide unit with drones?

I see what you're trying to ask - I had a look but couldn't find anything in the book to cover classifying mixed unit types. Ergo, the Riptide is still Jetpack MC and the drones are still Jetpack Infantry. (...I think, not sure on the drones.)

Jetpack *something* - as it is a mixed unit, that isnt an IC, you cannto see which type takes priority.

Sure you can - it's the type that the unit was bought as.
The Riptide was bought as an MC. The drones are normal members of an MC unit.

They arent ICs, so avoid using the "Normal members" line

They are Jetpack Infantry; the MC is Jetpack MC.