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Made in us
Dakka Veteran





So I watched a few games at my local independent gaming store this weekend & I watched a IG player go against a Tau player. The IG player attempted to issue Bring It Down order on the Tau Riptide, but the Tau player said because it was accompanied by drones he could not. He said the same was true of Hive Tyrants accompanied by smaller tyranids. Is he correct? Basically the only time this order can be issued is against monstrous creatures that are by themselves/lone vehicles & or vehicles squadrons?
   
Made in us
Ragin' Ork Dreadnought




I think this goes in YMDC...
   
Made in au
Tea-Kettle of Blood




Adelaide, South Australia

The reason Bring it Down doesn't work on a Hive Tyrant with Tyrant Guard is because it's a Tyrant Guard unit (Infantry) with a Hive Tyrant attached to it as what is essentially an independent character, so you're firing at an infantry unit, not a monstrous creature unit, so if Riptides + drones work the same way, the tau player's right, if not it depends on the wording of the codex.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/25 07:05:26


 Ailaros wrote:
You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.

"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Not as Good as a Minion






Brisbane

 PrinceRaven wrote:
The reason Bring it Down doesn't work on a Hive Tyrant with Tyrant Guard is because it's a Tyrant Guard unit (Infantry) with a Hive Tyrant attached to it as what is essentially an independent character, so you're firing at an infantry unit, not a monstrous creature unit, so if Riptides + drones work the same way, the tau player's right, if not it depends on the wording of the codex.


The guard codex is really getting on in years, isn't it even older than the nid one? Maybe they didn't know to account for this.

And it says 'or monstrous creature (or unit of monstrous creatures)'. So no real help there.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/25 07:10:22


I wish I had time for all the game systems I own, let alone want to own... 
   
Made in us
Heroic Senior Officer





Western Kentucky

Commissar Benny wrote:
So I watched a few games at my local independent gaming store this weekend & I watched a IG player go against a Tau player. The IG player attempted to issue Bring It Down order on the Tau Riptide, but the Tau player said because it was accompanied by drones he could not. He said the same was true of Hive Tyrants accompanied by smaller tyranids. Is he correct? Basically the only time this order can be issued is against monstrous creatures that are by themselves/lone vehicles & or vehicles squadrons?

The rule for Bring it Down! is as follows

If the order is successfully issued, choose one enemy vehicle (or squadron of enemy vehicles) or monstrous creature (or unit of monstrous creatures) visible to the officer. The ordered unit immediately shoots at the nominated target, counting their weapons as twin-linked.


It says unit of monstrous creatures, so that's looking like a no. That feels really wrong though, like we should still be able to do the order.

If I was a commander, I wouldn't discount the order to bring it down just because there are tiny drones flying around it.

But we can argue RAI vs RAW all day long. For now, it's probably safe to play it as no, you can't if they have drones (which sucks, because that's one of the few tricks my foot IG has for dealing with those things.)

'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader

"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell  
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Thanks for the feedback everyone. I agree with MrMoustaffa in that it should be able to, but because it is pretty vague in codex that for time being that its a no. Perhaps they will address it in the next update.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/25 08:43:26


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




Vanished Completely

Not sure if you should post whole rules here, it is generally avoided as much as possible.

Still the reason the ability can not be used is pretty simple, from a Rules as Written perspective. The rule itself only allows you to target monstrous creatures, flying monstrous creatures or vehicles, clearly designed to give additional firepower against these harder foes. Should it be used on mixed units, it is highly likely that it would create additional hits that would then be resolved against unit types that where not named in the rule. As there is no way to ensure the extra hits are directed only at the unit type allowed, the whole rule has to be discarded as the limitations can not be met.

It is clearly an oversight, compounded by old-codex-syndrome, which is why I hope imperial guards gain a new codex sometime in the near future.

8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.  
   
Made in au
Nurgle Predator Driver with an Infestation



Perth, Western Australia

The Riptide's attached drones have caused a couple of rules conundrums so far. I hope they get FAQ'd soon.
   
Made in dk
Servoarm Flailing Magos






Metalica

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Commissar Benny wrote:
So I watched a few games at my local independent gaming store this weekend & I watched a IG player go against a Tau player. The IG player attempted to issue Bring It Down order on the Tau Riptide, but the Tau player said because it was accompanied by drones he could not. He said the same was true of Hive Tyrants accompanied by smaller tyranids. Is he correct? Basically the only time this order can be issued is against monstrous creatures that are by themselves/lone vehicles & or vehicles squadrons?

The rule for Bring it Down! is as follows

If the order is successfully issued, choose one enemy vehicle (or squadron of enemy vehicles) or monstrous creature (or unit of monstrous creatures) visible to the officer. The ordered unit immediately shoots at the nominated target, counting their weapons as twin-linked.


It says unit of monstrous creatures, so that's looking like a no. That feels really wrong though, like we should still be able to do the order.

If I was a commander, I wouldn't discount the order to bring it down just because there are tiny drones flying around it.

But we can argue RAI vs RAW all day long. For now, it's probably safe to play it as no, you can't if they have drones (which sucks, because that's one of the few tricks my foot IG has for dealing with those things.)


If a riptide is dumb enough to bring drones, shoot them out and watch him flee. If he is not, you've still got Bring it Down!

 
   
Made in us
Noise Marine Terminator with Sonic Blaster





Moon Township, PA

 Purifier wrote:
[

If a riptide is dumb enough to bring drones, shoot them out and watch him flee. If he is not, you've still got Bring it Down!


If your opponent has a riptide and two drones and wants to play that ticky tacky....

OK. 2 drones means majority toughness is 4?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/25 12:11:35


 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Not as Good as a Minion






Brisbane

Pretty much. DSing stormies can insta gib the riptide in that scenario if they aren't intercepted to death (assuming that they have meltas)

I wish I had time for all the game systems I own, let alone want to own... 
   
Made in za
Fixture of Dakka




Temple Prime

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Commissar Benny wrote:
So I watched a few games at my local independent gaming store this weekend & I watched a IG player go against a Tau player. The IG player attempted to issue Bring It Down order on the Tau Riptide, but the Tau player said because it was accompanied by drones he could not. He said the same was true of Hive Tyrants accompanied by smaller tyranids. Is he correct? Basically the only time this order can be issued is against monstrous creatures that are by themselves/lone vehicles & or vehicles squadrons?

The rule for Bring it Down! is as follows

If the order is successfully issued, choose one enemy vehicle (or squadron of enemy vehicles) or monstrous creature (or unit of monstrous creatures) visible to the officer. The ordered unit immediately shoots at the nominated target, counting their weapons as twin-linked.


It says unit of monstrous creatures, so that's looking like a no. That feels really wrong though, like we should still be able to do the order.

If I was a commander, I wouldn't discount the order to bring it down just because there are tiny drones flying around it.

But we can argue RAI vs RAW all day long. For now, it's probably safe to play it as no, you can't if they have drones (which sucks, because that's one of the few tricks my foot IG has for dealing with those things.)
"BRING THAT XENOS ABOMINATION DOWN!"

"We can't sir!"

"By the Emperor, why not?"

"It's got...*gulp* DRONES!"

"Drones!? THRONE ON TERRA WE'RE ALL DOOMED! SAVE YOURSELVES FOOLS! RUN! RUUUUUNNNNNNN!!!"

"Heheh, silly Gue'la."

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/25 12:30:00


 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.



 
   
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Missionary On A Mission





Australia

^I probably laughed harder then I should have at that

: 4500pts

Lothlorien: 3500pts
Rohan: 1500pts
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Modor: 1500pts 
   
Made in gb
Chalice-Wielding Sanguinary High Priest





Stevenage, UK

 Green is Best! wrote:
OK. 2 drones means majority toughness is 4?


The drones that you can get to accompany the Riptide are T6.

For applying the rule... it depends on how you parse the sentence, but surely you fulfil the requirement of targeting a monstrous creature? It doesn't say "the entire unit must be monstrous creatures". Ergo, Bring It Down still allows you to target the MC alone.
That, of course, then plays havoc with wound allocation especially if it's not the nearest in the unit... but I don't think we can count it as a flat "no" just yet.

"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch  
   
Made in us
Noise Marine Terminator with Sonic Blaster





Moon Township, PA

 Super Ready wrote:

The drones that you can get to accompany the Riptide are T6.


I am not trying to be snippy here, but what causes this?
Does the riptide have drones with a separate entry from normal drones?
Is there a rule for drones saying this?

Thanks,

 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Green is Best! wrote:

OK. 2 drones means majority toughness is 4?


Given the HEavy missile drones are specified as T6, no the majority toughness is NOT 4.

motyak wrote:Pretty much. DSing stormies can insta gib the riptide in that scenario if they aren't intercepted to death (assuming that they have meltas)



Wrong, for the reason mentioned above AND for the fact the iD works off the toughness of the model the unsaved wound is applied to, NOT the majority T of the unit.
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Not as Good as a Minion






Brisbane

nosferatu1001 wrote:


motyak wrote:Pretty much. DSing stormies can insta gib the riptide in that scenario if they aren't intercepted to death (assuming that they have meltas)



Wrong, for the reason mentioned above AND for the fact the iD works off the toughness of the model the unsaved wound is applied to, NOT the majority T of the unit.


Huh. That's sure interesting to learn. It's never cone up for me yet, but I'll be sure to remember it if that comes up.

I wish I had time for all the game systems I own, let alone want to own... 
   
Made in au
Guard Heavy Weapon Crewman



Australia

Are you not still targeting the monstrous creature though? And the other units just have a special rule that means they intercept?

I get it that its a competitive game but it just takes away the spirit of the game if you would argue something like this.

Chris 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




No, you are shooting a "unit". That unit is not a unit of monstrous creatures, nor is it a single unit of "MC". It is currently neither.
   
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Boom! Leman Russ Commander





Brisbane, Australia

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, you are shooting a "unit". That unit is not a unit of monstrous creatures, nor is it a single unit of "MC". It is currently neither.


So is it correct to simply call a riptide unit "Jetpack"? I mean, that's the only typing that the two share...

 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Yep, its "jetpack *something*"

The something is undefined
   
Made in dk
Servoarm Flailing Magos






Metalica

Christopher300 wrote:
it just takes away the spirit of the game if you would argue something like this.

Agreed, but this is YMDC, and that's what YMDC is for.
And if no consensus can be found ("Yeah, that sounds reasonable. I'll allow you to shoot that at my riptide.") then you have to go by the letter. And that's what YMDC does.

 
   
Made in us
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife





Can you choose to focus fire to only target the riptide, or do the rules of "Bring it Down!" cause it to still fail?
   
Made in gb
Chalice-Wielding Sanguinary High Priest





Stevenage, UK

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, you are shooting a "unit". That unit is not a unit of monstrous creatures, nor is it a single unit of "MC". It is currently neither.


Not true in the case of Bring it Down!. Initially it doesn't say "target" or "perform a shooting attack", the rule says "choose". Only once that choice is made are we told to shoot at the "nominated target".
Having made that realisation, I'd actually argue that RAW you can specifically pick out a particular MC from a unit of MCs if you really wanted to, though I don't believe that's the intent.

"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch  
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




You target units. By definition if you are shooting a nominated target, the target is a unit.

Nilok -focus fire is cover saves. No other application.
   
Made in us
The Hive Mind





What's the unit type of a Riptide unit with drones?

My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
 
   
Made in gb
Chalice-Wielding Sanguinary High Priest





Stevenage, UK

rigeld2 wrote:
What's the unit type of a Riptide unit with drones?


I see what you're trying to ask - I had a look but couldn't find anything in the book to cover classifying mixed unit types. Ergo, the Riptide is still Jetpack MC and the drones are still Jetpack Infantry. (...I think, not sure on the drones.)

"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch  
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Jetpack *something* - as it is a mixed unit, that isnt an IC, you cannto see which type takes priority.
   
Made in us
The Hive Mind





Sure you can - it's the type that the unit was bought as.
The Riptide was bought as an MC. The drones are normal members of an MC unit.

My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




They arent ICs, so avoid using the "Normal members" line

They are Jetpack Infantry; the MC is Jetpack MC.
   
 
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