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So, rebuilding my Nid army and noticed that basically every list people seem to use uses the same basic 5 units, or some variation of them. Those being: Flyrant, Tervigon, Termagant, Hive Guard and the DOOM.

Now I have been playing nids since 3rd (not a grizzled ancient, but been around the block a few times) and I am smart enough to realize when something is very good at either what it does, its cost or both. As well, with the 6th changes to barrage, biovores seem to be becoming a staple as well.

But variety is the spice of life and i thought another go over of the dex was in order.

So here are a few units that I felt in the current meta might be heavily overlooked, and could do considerably well(from HQ, elites, troops, fast, heavy):

Parasite: Heavy deterrent to any outflanking infantry armies, which there are plenty. A bit expensive and T4 definitely is a drawback, but a decent close combat unit) now if rippers were beasts...

Tyranid Prime: Decent close combat ability, decent ranged ability, low cost, and an independent character to give units permanent synapse. Definitely have to give this guy another go.

Deathleaper: With so many psychers around these days, I admit I even heavily overlooked this character. But against those psychers, an instant D3 reduction to leadership without him even being on the board is incredible. Nothin like making that jetseer with laughin god mantle suddenly lD7 and unable to get any powers off. He also has very good close combat ability, namely for challenging, and gained shrouded wwith the faq. Overall not at all a bad unit. Bit pricey, but not bad.

Venomthropes: Now I almost immediately wrote these off as being unnecessary but after a long look at them, they are actually quite good. Especially with tyranid access to endurance, these guys can become extremely irritating. The big mek KFF has been a tried and true piece of wargear for a long time and multiple venomthropes gives the opportunity for a larger footprint. Prime(s) joined to them also make them a decent clos combat unit, and increase their survivability.

Now obviously the biggest problem for the last 2 is that they take up the same space as the doom, hive guard and zoans...

So no assault after outflanking or infiltrating really hurt genestealers, and I have a hard time trying to work out a way to make them useful and not get shot to pieces immediatlely. I did think to myself, well, they can assault the firt turn anyways...why not just stick them in area terrain with infiltrate and go to ground? Could work, but I am not convinced as of yet, will try it though.

Warriors are much better than I ever gave them credit. base 30 pts for a 3W T4 model with decent shooting and great close combat is DAMN GOOD. As well, more and more lists I see in the current meta have far less S8 and far more S7 for fliers, and most of the S8 would be better spent shooting other things like flying tyrants and tervigons. Definitely need to give them another go.

Now, for whatever reason, I very rarely end up taking fast attack choices in any army I play. I dont know why that is, but it just trns out that way. Well after taking another look through fast, I realized that the Harpy is actually a pretty amazing unit. just 160 points for a 4 wound T5 flying monstrous creature, that comes stock with a twin linked S6 large blast, a free upgrade to another S6 large blast and a once per game ability to drop up to 3 addition large blasts. I mean for 160 points you have the possibility of throwing out 5 large blasts in one turn... I will definitely be giving these guys another go, and I know quad guns are a serious problem for them, sure, but endurance can help stem that issue, and if you saturate the field with more monstrous or flying MC, they will likely go unnoticed.

Raveners are also much better than i gave them credit, deep striking multiwound beasts with many attacks, high initiative, can get rending and move through cover... pretty darn good.

Now heavies were interesting. I see biovores more and more and I understand why, I see and use carnifexes, though a bit overpriced double devourer fexes are amazing. I see trygons and mawlocks occasionally, though less and less because they seem to just come in and get vaporized. then comes the tyrannofex. I have always loved the idea of a perfect engine of destruction at range, a living tank solely designed to be a walking support battery. And I thought, yeah it is really expensive, but then...what are you getting for 250 pts? Well I found me convincing myself that what you get is actually pretty darn good. 6 wound T6 MC with a 2+ save, a built in S6 torrent flamer, a secondary S6 large blast, and a regular flame weapon as well(I prefer the wounds on 2+ one myself). Overall, that aint bad and it pretty much gives it the ability to engage any target accept flyers. It also makes it a bad unit to charge with 2 overwatch flame weapons. And with so many things gaining access to some form of cover, any ignore cover weapon is inherently useful. I see myself trying a build with 2 of these stock, running in front of tervigons hitting them with endurance and just charging the enemy.

In any case, those are my opinions, if anyone would care to comment or say that anything I have written has "been said before" or is complete bs, feel free, I wont judge (too much...)

 gameandwatch wrote:

Parasite:
Heavy deterrent to any outflanking infantry armies, which there are plenty. A bit expensive and T4 definitely is a drawback, but a decent close combat unit) now if rippers were beasts...


Tyranid Prime:
Decent close combat ability, decent ranged ability, low cost, and an independent character to give units permanent synapse. Definitely have to give this guy another go.


Deathleaper:
With so many psychers around these days, I admit I even heavily overlooked this character. But against those psychers, an instant D3 reduction to leadership without him even being on the board is incredible. Nothin like making that jetseer with laughin god mantle suddenly lD7 and unable to get any powers off. He also has very good close combat ability, namely for challenging, and gained shrouded wwith the faq. Overall not at all a bad unit. Bit pricey, but not bad.


Venomthropes:
Now I almost immediately wrote these off as being unnecessary but after a long look at them, they are actually quite good. Especially with tyranid access to endurance, these guys can become extremely irritating. The big mek KFF has been a tried and true piece of wargear for a long time and multiple venomthropes gives the opportunity for a larger footprint. Prime(s) joined to them also make them a decent clos combat unit, and increase their survivability.


Now obviously the biggest problem for the last 2 is that they take up the same space as the doom, hive guard and zoans...


Genestealers
So no assault after outflanking or infiltrating really hurt genestealers, and I have a hard time trying to work out a way to make them useful and not get shot to pieces immediatlely. I did think to myself, well, they can assault the firt turn anyways...why not just stick them in area terrain with infiltrate and go to ground? Could work, but I am not convinced as of yet, will try it though.


Warriors
much better than I ever gave them credit. base 30 pts for a 3W T4 model with decent shooting and great close combat is DAMN GOOD. As well, more and more lists I see in the current meta have far less S8 and far more S7 for fliers, and most of the S8 would be better spent shooting other things like flying tyrants and tervigons. Definitely need to give them another go.


Harpy
a pretty amazing unit. just 160 points for a 4 wound T5 flying monstrous creature, that comes stock with a twin linked S6 large blast, a free upgrade to another S6 large blast and a once per game ability to drop up to 3 addition large blasts. I mean for 160 points you have the possibility of throwing out 5 large blasts in one turn... I will definitely be giving these guys another go, and I know quad guns are a serious problem for them, sure, but endurance can help stem that issue, and if you saturate the field with more monstrous or flying MC, they will likely go unnoticed.


Raveners
much better than i gave them credit, deep striking multiwound beasts with many attacks, high initiative, can get rending and move through cover... pretty darn good.


Heavies
I see biovores more and more and I understand why, I see and use carnifexes, though a bit overpriced double devourer fexes are amazing. I see trygons and mawlocks occasionally, though less and less because they seem to just come in and get vaporized. then comes the tyrannofex. I have always loved the idea of a perfect engine of destruction at range, a living tank solely designed to be a walking support battery. And I thought, yeah it is really expensive, but then...what are you getting for 250 pts? Well I found me convincing myself that what you get is actually pretty darn good. 6 wound T6 MC with a 2+ save, a built in S6 torrent flamer, a secondary S6 large blast, and a regular flame weapon as well(I prefer the wounds on 2+ one myself). Overall, that aint bad and it pretty much gives it the ability to engage any target accept flyers. It also makes it a bad unit to charge with 2 overwatch flame weapons. And with so many things gaining access to some form of cover, any ignore cover weapon is inherently useful. I see myself trying a build with 2 of these stock, running in front of tervigons hitting them with endurance and just charging the enemy.

In any case, those are my opinions, if anyone would care to comment or say that anything I have written has "been said before" or is complete bs, feel free, I wont judge (too much...)

Sorry about the large quote but I was having some serious WALLOFTEXT issues and your post seemed to be relatively well thought out and abstract so I wanted to see it in an easier format to discuss.

I am surprised you've mentioned Raveners but not Shrikes or Sky Slashers...gargoyles are common.

I personally run my Parasite with Sky Slashers because they're a cheap bodyguard for him.

I have had immaculate success with LW/BS Shrikes...its 50 points a model on a 5+ save but you have a nearly guaranteed 2nd turn charge they devastates enemy lines. It's ridiculously hard to play but it can be amazing. I made a list with 9 super shrikes and 18 raveners...you either get rolled or you trainwreck the enemy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have a lot more input and will get back here as soon as I can put my book in front of my eyes.

And even gameandwatch won't touch Pyrovores, because they are that bad.

I can see an argument for Pyrovore sniping...2 in a pod could land next to a unit and put enough wounds on to remove an important weapon or character. This works well with the new pull from the front rules.

This was amazing at the beginning of 6th with the long fangs everywhere...kill the sergeant...they can't split fire...usually they try to shoot you with missiles...which doubles them out and explodes more long fangs.

Other than that...no no no.

 ductvader wrote:
I can see an argument for Pyrovore sniping...2 in a pod could land next to a unit and put enough wounds on to remove an important weapon or character. This works well with the new pull from the front rules.

This was amazing at the beginning of 6th with the long fangs everywhere...kill the sergeant...they can't split fire...usually they try to shoot you with missiles...which doubles them out and explodes more long fangs.

Other than that...no no no.

And then people found out that shrieking Zoantrhopes could do pretty much the same thing, but better.

 Kain wrote:
And even gameandwatch won't touch Pyrovores, because they are that bad.

QFT to the n'th power

Pyros really are just terrible, now if they had hive guard stats since thy are practically the same model... that would be a different story.

As far as shrikes are concerned that 5+ just kills them for me, bolters mow them down quite easily

Flying rippers are ok, a bit pricey but definitely not terrible, and with parasite are great!

 gameandwatch wrote:

 Kain wrote:
And even gameandwatch won't touch Pyrovores, because they are that bad.

QFT to the n'th power

Pyros really are just terrible, now if they had hive guard stats since thy are practically the same model... that would be a different story.

As far as shrikes are concerned that 5+ just kills them for me, bolters mow them down quite easily

Flying rippers are ok, a bit pricey but definitely not terrible, and with parasite are great!

Pyrovores have Biovore stats since they're based on the same genus.

Hive Guard are somewhat distant cousins to Tyrant guard that traded some armor for a really big gun.

I understand, but considering their role you would think they would have more been another biomorph of the tyrant guard.

It sucks, cause with the guard statline they would absolutely be usable

 gameandwatch wrote:
I understand, but considering their role you would think they would have more been another biomorph of the tyrant guard.

It sucks, cause with the guard statline they would absolutely be usable

Pyroguard then?

That actually sounds pretty boss.

Pyrovore is not basically a Hive Guard, they are a variant on the Biovore. Just like the Hive Guard is a variant on the Tyrant Guard and the Venomthrope on the Zoanthrope, the Tyrannofex on the Carnifex. In terms on chronology from 4th Codex with 5th.



In certain settings such as Cities of Death, or Killteam, they can e good, and charging them should be a bad thing, each packing a Heavy Flamer and ignoring armour saves. 2 things really kill them though.

1- Overcrowded Elite slots. Can't really be helped, there is no other slot. They are not very fast or designed to be, so not FA. HQ and Troop definately not. HS neither.

2- Poor speed and suviability. They explode when IDed, and are not very tough. If they were a bit faster, like a beast for example, this could help and simultaneously solve FOC problems by making them eligible for FA.

3- Poor weapon choice. A heavy Flamer is great but not if the model can never get to use it. Similarly, ignoring armour is excellent in our AP3 Power Weapon world, amd aside MCs and Boneswords we Nids have no real answer to Termies. Pyrovores could theorectically be great to fight GK Termies with, by ignoring the armour, and then exploding when Force Weaponed, or hit by a hammer, with Acid Blood killing those with Halberds, Swords, Staves and Flachions, but they are so slow they are shot to pieces upon arrival.



Suppose just one of those things were fixed. Imagine is they exploded at AP2, or had a higher save. Or were Beasts. They might then be useful

 Deadshot wrote:
we Nids have no real answer to Termies.

What are you talking about?

DROWN THEM IN GANTS!

All joking aside, I do rely on termagants to kill terminators...And to this day a Terminator has never won that assault.

Really? I find that unless I chuck my Megatyrant at them they do not fall unless I hammer them with everything.

My Megatyrant for all interested, is a Footyrant with BS/LW, HVC, Leech Essence and Paroxysm or 2 Biomancy, all the Biomorphes and Armoured shell, with 1-2 Tyrant Guard (1 with Biomancy, 2 with codex powers), Hive Commander to outflank Warriors, Old Adversary and IH.

 ductvader wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
we Nids have no real answer to Termies.

What are you talking about?

DROWN THEM IN GANTS!

All joking aside, I do rely on termagants to kill terminators...And to this day a Terminator has never won that assault.

Devilgants in a pod can butcher terminators. Or just straight up 30 devilgants.

Ah. I run Borers. And hoof it up board.

The Parasite of Mortrex
My 2nd most used HQ (after Swarmlord) and is rather amazing. Outflanking is starting to become more popular in the past few months and so Parasite is gaining in value. being a fast HQ it means that he usually makes it into the combats he wants to be in while avoiding the combats he knows he'll get punk'd in.

Primes
Amazing character killers...I have two loadouts (LW?BS, Scytals, Regen) and (BS/BS, Scytals, Regen) The BS/BS is only for when he's in units that have their own lash whips...like venomthropes or Lashguard.

Deathleaper
To be used solely for fear tactics, the occassional pheromone trail, and last turn contestation. being able to disappear and reappear anywhere...great tactic. 2 Lictors are arguably a better choice in his place though.

Venomthrope
amazing utility piece, through my experience I have found that fielding a single Venomthrope usually does the job...hidden behind a wall or whatever and pulsing out that cover save. Especially good with MCs...if you're opponent can't kill him until turn 2 or even 3...he's made his points back as a defense multiplier.

I personally think that Hive Guard do too little in game for the praise they recieve. Zoanthropes on the other hand are way underpriced for the utility the gained with book powers. I usually roll for telekine dome...makes tyranids ridiculous. All my other psykers go biomancy though.

Genestealers
...while 6th edition has temporarily reduced the genestealer squad to near worthless...It made the broodlord stronger. A smart player can wreck half an army with a broodlord...I have never lost a broodlord in combat because I know which battles he can and cant win. Taking dual biomancy is risky on him because BS0 means he can't shoot a psychic power but so rewarding if you get iron arm or endurance. Sometimes aura of despair or hypnotic gaze will offer you much more. I have killed a trygon with a broodlord gazing him down. My broodlords often turn into objective campers that are just one more source of passing out endurance.

Warriors
I couldn't have said it better myself and you can kit them however you want for efectiveness...just stay off the venom cannon

Harpy
I have 2 harpies...they used to be in every single game...then High Yield Missile Broadsides came out and the Harpies are waiting for their next book where they get a 3+ armor.

Raveners
I don't think rending is even necessary on these guys...you can drown enemies in wounds with the dual scytals...if anything...take the thorax swarm spine fists (because they dont replace arms) for the same points and a full squad of raveners will put out 36 TL S3 shots and follow up with 45 "TL" S4 attacks (=9.6 dead marines)

Biovores
I understand the "good-ness" but it feels so not tyranid-y...and so they bore me.

Carnifex
I have 15 carnifexes. There are a multitude of different ways to field them effectively TL Devourers should run solo in a pod or in a brood of 2 walking enduranced or telekine domed....3 is overkill and innefficient. You can also put a stock fex in a pod if you simple want a giant distract that can hide behind the pod and scare your opponent for the next turn of retaliation. I personally enjoy running a Stone Crusher Carnifex...the 2+ save goes a long way with regeneration and IWND. (Like Good Old One Eye) But don't get me wrong Old One Eye is the perfect Carnifex to run solo in a list that's light on synapse...his LD8 lending ability goes a lot farther than you'd think. Every time I happen to have Old One Eye in my list I happen to play a different bug player running the Doom...and Old One Smashes his face in. my other favorite fex is Screamer Fexes...stock with Bio Plasma...not too effective but man are they fun when they work.

Trygons
I was never enamored with these. I believe they should start on the board to benefit from the psychic shield the army is presenting.

Tyrannofex
Man do I enjoy a Tyrannofex...in 5th (The land of mech) I ran the rupture cannon and kept onslaught on him...eventually he would end up in my opponents deployment zone still blasting tanks at point blank and then eating the insides...or finishing it off in CC...now...you're right...think of him like a Land Raider Crusader...big, slow, able to take a punishment, and put the hurt on infantry at the same time...only this guy is more durable. A Tyrannofex though, demands at least 2 other MCs on the board to balance out the firepower he's soaking up...My tyrranofex list has 2 of these guys on the flanks walking up the board while swarmlord and 3 lash guard take the middle of the board...and yes...2 tervigons and their min 20 gant broods following him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Deadshot wrote:
Really? I find that unless I chuck my Megatyrant at them they do not fall unless I hammer them with everything.

My Megatyrant for all interested, is a Footyrant with BS/LW, HVC, Leech Essence and Paroxysm or 2 Biomancy, all the Biomorphes and Armoured shell, with 1-2 Tyrant Guard (1 with Biomancy, 2 with codex powers), Hive Commander to outflank Warriors, Old Adversary and IH.

Dang...that 395 pt beast would hate to meet my 100 pt GK Champion.

I have to be impressed by someone willing to come just 35 points short of the most expensive tyrant available.

I will say though...I think TL Devs or Deathspitter would go farther that the HVC due to the preferred enemy.

Oddly enough, I have had amazing success with hive guard, just being able to stick them completely out of LoS and create a 24" bubble of nasty is pretty sweet, and with the amount of jinking nonsense these days, I like these guys more and more.

Im def giving the tyrannofexes another go, like 1-2 of them, 1-2 tervigons an tyrants of some kind

 Deadshot wrote:
Really? I find that unless I chuck my Megatyrant at them they do not fall unless I hammer them with everything.

My Megatyrant for all interested, is a Footyrant with BS/LW, HVC, Leech Essence and Paroxysm or 2 Biomancy, all the Biomorphes and Armoured shell, with 1-2 Tyrant Guard (1 with Biomancy, 2 with codex powers), Hive Commander to outflank Warriors, Old Adversary and IH.

Please explain the underline.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Really? I find that unless I chuck my Megatyrant at them they do not fall unless I hammer them with everything.

My Megatyrant for all interested, is a Footyrant with BS/LW, HVC, Leech Essence and Paroxysm or 2 Biomancy, all the Biomorphes and Armoured shell, with 1-2 Tyrant Guard (1 with Biomancy, 2 with codex powers), Hive Commander to outflank Warriors, Old Adversary and IH.

Please explain the underline.

Seems as someone has unlocked psyker tyrant guards? I'm jelly ...

When he takes 1 guard he rolls on biomancy. When he takes 2 guards he keeps codex powers.

What? Since when?

Why? I'm confused. lol

Saythings wrote:
What? Since when?

Why? I'm confused. lol

If you take 1 guard and roll on biomancy, you are aiming for Iron Arm. This allows you to boost your toughness to up to 9 (which is AMAZING btw) and since you have 2 models with varying toughness, you take the highest, which is the iron arm'ed tyrant. It basically allows iron arm to spill onto the guard and gives you 2 more T7-T9 wounds.

If you take 2 guard, iron arm will not spill onto the guard, as the majority toughness with still be 6 (2 models with 6, 1 with more), so iron arm is basically useless, hence why he suggests codex powers when running 2 guard. Frankly, iron arm and 1 guard is typically harder to kill than codex powers and 2 guard....but you run the risk of not getting iron arm, or just plain failing the psychic test.

^^^

Couldn't have put it better myself. Personally I prefer codex powers on my Megatyrant. As good as Iron Arm is, I prefer the traditional walking Tyrant with 3 Tyrant Guard. Plus, I normally run the Swarmlord complete with 4 Biomancy rolls and a Tyrant Guard for the Str/T uppage who I make my warlord. Otherwise my 400pt beast is just asking to be shot.

With three guards, either stick with codex powers or look for other tables. Sadly the two best powers on Telepathy can only be used by the Swarmlord because for some reason he's the only warp charge 2 unit in the entire army.

I don't bother with Telepathy unless it's a Broodlord, in which case I prefer the Hypnotic Gaze for Challenges. Biomancy is simply too good to pass up for Telepathy.

 Deadshot wrote:
I don't bother with Telepathy unless it's a Broodlord, in which case I prefer the Hypnotic Gaze for Challenges. Biomancy is simply too good to pass up for Telepathy.

There's still Telekinesis for the Tyranids if you want a 3 guard Tyrant.

Leech Essence and Paroxysm, to me, are reliable and more effective.

 Deadshot wrote:
Leech Essence and Paroxysm, to me, are reliable and more effective.

Telekine dome stops you from getting shot to death.

Leech Essence repairs damage done while simultaneously inflicting AP2 shots. And is guarneteed. Its just preference really.

 Deadshot wrote:
Leech Essence repairs damage done while simultaneously inflicting AP2 shots. And is guarneteed. Its just preference really.

And then everyone got a better version on the Biomancy table. Which probably indicates that the new Tyranid power tables are going to be quite different.

If it changes at all in the future I would expect it to stay to the Biomancy, Telekinesis, Telepathy nature of things.