Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Woah...pyro zoans...I wish that were possible

Yeah... I don't know what is going on, but it seems like a lot of people are playing illegal builds or are not completely familiar with the rules... be sure what you are doing is legal guys...

I havent givin up on zoans, don't get me wrong, but its just rough cause you either take them as decent ranged units, or lose much of their offense for pure synapse/support units. I... I am just not convinced of both yet, and need to test them a lot more.

I am definitely going to try harpies. Quad guns and HYMP broads are anoying, I know this, but considering what they can put out, I want to give them a try.

 gameandwatch wrote:
Yeah... I don't know what is going on, but it seems like a lot of people are playing illegal builds or are not completely familiar with the rules... be sure what you are doing is legal guys...

I havent givin up on zoans, don't get me wrong, but its just rough cause you either take them as decent ranged units, or lose much of their offense for pure synapse/support units. I... I am just not convinced of both yet, and need to test them a lot more.

I am definitely going to try harpies. Quad guns and HYMP broads are anoying, I know this, but considering what they can put out, I want to give them a try.

The advice quality on the boards the last few weeks has been dropping like a rock frankly. I don't know if it's long time players retiring and witless newbies filling the void, or the fact there's very little agreement in what is good or not, or 6th edition being more local meta focused than a more worldwide meta, but half the advice you read now is straight up illegal or awful.

Pyro zoanthropes? Not legal
Paroxym + biomancy tyrant? Not legal
Harpys? Awful
Pyrovores? Awful
Deathleaper? Still poor at best.
There was a huge thread discussing the use of mawlocs to kill tau fire warriors....why are you not just using biovores? Which are like 6 to 8 times better. Mawlocs are just terrible.

What's going on here? It's making me not want to read these boards anymore.

Tyranids are figured out; 2x TL-BL dev winged tyrants, doom, 2 tervigons + gants, biovores. With zoans, HG, gargs to fill out the points. Done. That's all there is to the codex in 6th edition and taking anything else is unwise and sub-optimal.

I disagree that zoans/HG are required.
I like Carnifexes or Trygons instead.

 Carnage43 wrote:
Tyranids are figured out; 2x TL-BL dev winged tyrants, doom, 2 tervigons + gants, biovores. With zoans, HG, gargs to fill out the points. Done. That's all there is to the codex in 6th edition and taking anything else is unwise and sub-optimal.

The moment something has been "figured out" is the moment I stop playing 40k...that's boring.

Tyrants have not been figured out...there are many builds and uses for tyrants.

I welcome discussion.

While many people have posted some very very wrong ideas...people "not agreeing" is a good sign to me.

Honestly I still am not sold on flying tyrants, 6s to hit is great, 3+ save not bad, but fail that one grounding test and the 260? point model is down the drain. Especially with the amount of anti air these days, when you can only have 2 of these, they dont have invuls an 2 is 1/3 a 1500 point list.... I am just not sure they are still the best choice.

I personally have had amazing experience with armored shell tyrants. that 2+ with endurance is just.... so annoying for an opponent. I will always agree that double devourer is the way to go, cant go wrong with 12 S6 twin linked shots... just...so good.

Carnifexes are great in groups of 2, havent deep struck with singles much, but that does sound fun to throw somehthing like that in a back line.

I can see that harpies may have a hard time with plentiful S7 ap4/skyfire, but with 2 tyrants up there as well, likely they will be shot. and between 3 and 5 pie plates in one turn... is pretty damn good

I agree on the 2+ tyrant, and will add in the amazingness of the swarmlord, a flying bonesword tyrant in the new land of riptides, or skipping the tyrant all together and getting more fexes.

 gameandwatch wrote:
Honestly I still am not sold on flying tyrants, 6s to hit is great, 3+ save not bad, but fail that one grounding test and the 260? point model is down the drain. Especially with the amount of anti air these days, when you can only have 2 of these, they dont have invuls an 2 is 1/3 a 1500 point list.... I am just not sure they are still the best choice.

I personally have had amazing experience with armored shell tyrants. that 2+ with endurance is just.... so annoying for an opponent. I will always agree that double devourer is the way to go, cant go wrong with 12 S6 twin linked shots... just...so good.

Carnifexes are great in groups of 2, havent deep struck with singles much, but that does sound fun to throw somehthing like that in a back line.

I can see that harpies may have a hard time with plentiful S7 ap4/skyfire, but with 2 tyrants up there as well, likely they will be shot. and between 3 and 5 pie plates in one turn... is pretty damn good

I use flyrants because otherwise fliers can do whatever they want to my army. Which isn't happy funtimes.

I've never had a game where I couldn't ignore fliers.

Or force them off the board by having too many gants in their movement paths

rigeld2 wrote:
I disagree that zoans/HG are required.
I like Carnifexes or Trygons instead.

My apologies.

"A" Team;

Winged Tyrants, 2xTL-BL Devourers, maybe OA or HC if it provides a solid benefit to your army.
2 Tervigons + 2x10 gants for troops. Tervigons will probably be running with 3 powers, with any other options being largely point fillers (crushing claws, scything talons). Most run AG/TS, but I consider AG optional.
Biovores for smashing infantry. Barrage sniping and cover from the center of the blast makes it amazing for digging stuff out from behind ADLs.
Doom in a pod, because a couple of lucky rolls and he will win you a game.

"B" Team;
Zoans
HG
Ymgarls
TL-BL dev Carnifexes
Gargoyles
Dev gaunts in a pod
Trygons
Foot Tyrants/Swarmlord

"F" Team;
Everything else.

You obviously cannot build a complete army out of the "A" team list, so you have to dip into the "B" team list to some degree and your choices are typically defined by personal preference and/or local meta consideration.

Oh, and Tyranids aren't the only "figured out" army in 6th. Necrons armies are about 95% the same nowadays as well.

I'm glad my 40k gaming ideology isn't so sad.

My games largely depend on how well I play as opposed to how well the internet thinks they can build my list.

Which is the purpose of this thread!

 ductvader wrote:
I've never had a game where I couldn't ignore fliers.

Or force them off the board by having too many gants in their movement paths

Heldrakes+Vendettas=Nothing on the board is safe. The Heldrakes BBQ hordes while the Vendettas pump MCs full of wounds they can't save against.

Or a nightshroud bomber/doom scythe flying in and making my hordes chew on an S10 AP1 large blast/ray of horrible dead and gibbing anything that can be gibbed while the nightscythes fly in and kill anything left.

Or Avenger fighters killing any MC they like in one turn.

Never been an issue...but I do tend to take around 60-90 gants before my tervigons spawn more.

 ductvader wrote:
Never been an issue...but I do tend to take around 60-90 gants before my tervigons spawn more.

Lists I often face consist of maximum vendetta spam and two allied heldrakes in double FOC games with plague marines and guard blobs sneering at me from their objectives while manticores/basilisks and havocs/forgefiends/oblits make the sky rain down upon me. Alternatively, Russ tanks and Predators/Vindicators.

Oh and Chaos termies waiting to teleport down and BBQ something with maximum flamers and Abaddon hiding in METAL BAWKSES to be vomited in my face.

The termies I can deal with, Abaddon is a pain.

dang...tough meta for bugs

And of course the Tau...god damn blueskins and their cover ignoring and cover camping and stupid kroot and annoying riptides and FJDSAKDNZ<DAADLZDNZDA KAIN SMASH!>

There just so much to comment on and so little time.

Why has this threat gotten so cynical?

Just to mention a few things and certainly in no particular order:
Mawlocs can be used instead of Biovores for several reasons against Tau. Some reasons include but are not limited to: Tau don't have force weapons and can't instead death Mawlocs. Tau have infiltrate and outflank and can kill Biovores hiding in the back. Tau contain S8+ Large Blasts (with 72" range) that can instant death Biovores. Mawlocs can be taking in pairs or triplets and can force the Tau to literally spread out and avoid less Support fire. Back off your Mawloc hate and open your mind to more than 1 list.

Pyro zoanthropes? Not legal
Paroxym + biomancy tyrant? Not legal
Harpys? Awful
Pyrovores? Awful
Deathleaper? Still poor at best.

Agreed on all accounts.

As for Heldrakes AND Vendettas in the same army list: feth that. That guy is an donkey-cave. But I will say, still not as bad as you think. Heldrakes can only effectively kill gants or a single wound on MCs. You mentioned Vendettas taking away all armor saves, but I'd still argue that 5+ cover saves in area terrain is one of the easiest things to get into 6th edition. You only need a fraction of the model's base to be touching terrain. Also Iron Arm, Endurance, and Catalyst gives you a lot of room to work with.

Someone mentioned the inclusion of 2+ walking Tyrants. That's fine. I find their lack of mobility disturbing but to each his own. However, they shortly mentioned afterwards that they planned on adding Carnifexes. I hope for your sake you don't leave them out of synapse the following turn or they won't be able to shoot (barring a Ld7 test).

I still believe that Tau's biggest weakness is their lack of high strength weapons. They can give rid of cover save and prevent some of your Armor Saves to some of your MCs, but they have a lot of shots when it comes to those specific weapons. With support fire and all their new tricks, it is a lot harder of a fight with nids but that's when having the ability to bring 7 MCs comes in handy. Add Doom and Zoans in spods into the mix and I'd argue they would have a tough time. Mawlocs come to mind. Mawloc haters! I'd rather bring Dakkafexes because 6th is the edition of shooting, but Mawlocs have their place.

Play style is important. If you practice a list long enough and have sound tactics, I'd argue that most armies can win. Don't go knocking on Nid players when they have different army lists in mind.

 Carnage43 wrote:
Pyro zoanthropes? Not legal

Yea...sorry bout that. I just found that out about 20 minutes ago in the You Make Da Call section. I'll blame my mind on that brainfart. Once you reach a certain age, your mind starts turning in odd directions and you start mixing up FAQ info. Next thing you know, you'll pass me sitting on my porch with my cane and shaking my fists at those young whippersnappers who keep walking on my lawn.

Unyielding Hunger wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:
Pyro zoanthropes? Not legal

Yea...sorry bout that. I just found that out about 20 minutes ago in the You Make Da Call section. I'll blame my mind on that brainfart. Once you reach a certain age, your mind starts turning in odd directions and you start mixing up FAQ info. Next thing you know, you'll pass me sitting on my porch with my cane and shaking my fists at those young whippersnappers who keep walking on my lawn.

No problem, everyone makes mistakes. I'm just frustrated when I see entire threads filled with mistakes and bad advice.

Saythings wrote:
Mawlocs can be used instead of Biovores for several reasons against Tau. Some reasons include but are not limited to: Tau don't have force weapons and can't instead death Mawlocs. Tau have infiltrate and outflank and can kill Biovores hiding in the back. Tau contain S8+ Large Blasts (with 72" range) that can instant death Biovores. Mawlocs can be taking in pairs or triplets and can force the Tau to literally spread out and avoid less Support fire. Back off your Mawloc hate and open your mind to more than 1 list.

What I do not, and will never get about mawlocs, and the people that support them....you only get 2, MAYBE 3 shots per game out of a mawloc. 170 points for 2-3 shots? That's insane. For what a Mawloc costs you can get 4 biovores. 4 biovores are going to get 20-28 shots off in a game (barring early death). that's 10 times as many templates. Hell, even against the mawloc's optimal target (T4, 2+ save infantry) the biovore pretty much matches it because it has so many more hits. As you get into weaker and weaker troops, the biovore just pulls further and further ahead. Also, biovores pin units, don't need LOS, can fire from turn one, hold back field objectives in big guns never tire, still "behave" when/if they fail synapse...etc.

Biovores should be parked somewhere around mid-board, between your table edge and the edge of your deployment zone, tuck out of LOS in a building somewhere. I've had my biovores die once in 6th, and that was to a deep striking trygon with some lucky rolls.

As for Heldrakes AND Vendettas in the same army list: feth that. That guy is an donkey-cave. But I will say, still not as bad as you think. Heldrakes can only effectively kill gants or a single wound on MCs. You mentioned Vendettas taking away all armor saves, but I'd still argue that 5+ cover saves in area terrain is one of the easiest things to get into 6th edition. You only need a fraction of the model's base to be touching terrain. Also Iron Arm, Endurance, and Catalyst gives you a lot of room to work with.

It's hard to get upset with someone playing by the rules, even if it is kind of a jerk move.

Also, don't discount the damage a drake can do, I had one drop 4 wounds on a trygon in 1 pass (D3+1 S7 vector strike, then a flamer template) that also roasted a handful of guants. MCs are perfect vector strike targets, and they are usually surrounded by something, so the flamer typically does some decent damage as well.

Iron arm and endurance...if you are lucky with your psychic power rolls. My last game against IG I made 8 rolls on the biomancy table across 2 tervigons and a winged tyrant and got zero iron arm and endurance. His vendettas really tore my MCs up pretty bad, even with a 5+ cover save. I REALLY dislike the random psychic power tables. How many Iron arm and endurance rolls you make massively influences the outcome of games, more than anything I've seen in several editions in fact.

 Carnage43 wrote:
What I do not, and will never get about mawlocs, and the people that support them....you only get 2, MAYBE 3 shots per game out of a mawloc. 170 points for 2-3 shots? That's insane. For what a Mawloc costs you can get 4 biovores. 4 biovores are going to get 20-28 shots off in a game (barring early death). that's 10 times as many templates. Hell, even against the mawloc's optimal target (T4, 2+ save infantry) the biovore pretty much matches it because it has so many more hits. As you get into weaker and weaker troops, the biovore just pulls further and further ahead. Also, biovores pin units, don't need LOS, can fire from turn one, hold back field objectives in big guns never tire, still "behave" when/if they fail synapse...etc.

It's most likely a mentality sort of thing. Sure, Biovores can look good on paper, but there are some people, myself included, that like to think "Apex Predator" Running 3 Mawlocs and ramming them down someone's throat turn two with a ton of other deepstriking units do tend to do extremely well. It's one of those "Oh " moments where your enemy suddenly has a ton of problems, and nowhere near enough guns to fix them.

I like how your 4 Biovores are maximized to shoot all their shots every turn. Not including other deepstriking enemies, outflanks, or enemy fast attack threats. Mawlocs aren't meant for their 2-3 "shots" as you referred to them as. They are meant to absorb shots (now that they are in the enemy deployment zone and can hardly be ignored).

Either way, after they get their "shots", they always get to assault whatever target they want with their 3 (to 5 w/ Rage) AP2 attacks (at I4) that can effectively 1-shot any vehicles in the game, instant death any HQ short of Eternal Warriors, or tarpit anything they need to handle for the rest of the game. As much you want to focus on the negatives of Mawlocs and positives of your Biovores, please point out their own weaknesses as well.

I'm appalled that anyone that actually acknowledged the biovores as a threat didn't respond by quickly killing them in the next turn. It doesn't take much to kill them.

As for the Heldrake, thank god you Vector Striked the Mawloc, he did his job once again. I'd gladly take you VS'ing the MAwlocs over the 2 Flyrants and scoring Tervigons that spawn more scoring units. Or the Zoanthopes and Doom of Malan'tai that effectively wipes everything you have on the ground. 3 Vendettas and 1 Heldrake takes quite a few points up and doesn't really put out the damage necessary to effect most MC Nid lists (as compared to other armies).

I never liked rolling for Biomancy on my Tervigons for that reason. I'll take the guaranteed FNP anyday. To be completely honest, I rarely get Iron Arm or Endurance on my Flyrants. I play the board and rely on my Catalysts. Proper positioning, correct target firing, optimal tactics, and playing to the missions (not the player) is generally all it takes to win with Tyranids.

This may be the only thread in which saythings and I are going to agree.

I personally don't think biovores are bad...they are just not "the best"...there is no "the best" in bugs just as there isnt in eldar.

most units are too different to compare.

 Carnage43 wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
What are you babbling about? I said using a Zoanthrope for Psychic Shriek is worse on average than a heavy flamer and is more expensive. That's a fact.

I'm noting that you are excessively negative and have an utter inability to contribute anything constructive or possess a modicum of politeness, but enough of you.

The Zoanthrope guts low LD armies like the guard, Tau, and other tyranids with just psychic shriek, not to mention the host of other powers it can take that are so central to a good Tyranid list. That is a fact.

The Pyrovore does nothing well and anyone who takes it had better know what they are doing unless they enjoy missing out on Zoanthropes, Venomthropes, the Doom of Malan'tai, Lictors, the Deathleaper, Hive Guard, and Ymgarl Genestealers. All of which can actually do something.

The Pyrovore is terrible and most everyone sane only ever uses it for Biovore proxies.

While I agree with your conclusion that pyrovores suck, I think you over estimate how effective psychic shriek really is. Granted, in a zoans vs pyros discussion I'd take zoans every time I still probably wouldn't take zoans over something else.

33 out of 36 chance to pass the psychic test; 91.6%
2 out of 3 chance to hit and we are down to 61.111%
1 in 6 to deny the witch and we are at 50.9% now.

Then we have the LD test. The average roll on 3d6 is 10.5.

LD 7 that's 3.5 dead, halved because of hitting/deny/psy test, so 1.75 dead on average fire warriors/guardsmen
LD 8 is 2.5, or 1.25 after adjustments
LD 9 is 1.5, or 0.75 after adjustments
LD 10 is 0.5, or 0.25 after adjustments

So, your 180 points of zoans (plus 40 for that pod) kills a staggering 47.25 points of fire warriors on the drop, in fact, it would take 4 or 5 turns of firing 3 zoans at fire warriors to balance of their own points cost on average. Off-hand, I think you might do more damage with warp blast if you can manage to get 2-3 models under the blast at a time and catch them without cover. Hell, smite from biomancy might be more damage on average as well.

Potential damage vs average damage is a silly discussion. Sure, your opponent could roll 18 on every LD test (I've see 3 in a row over 15 against the doom personally, it gutted an ork army) but it's not going to happen with the frequency that balance out their points cost. If you are looking for the highest potential damage it's hard to beat basic termigants, or dev gaunts, or grots, or guardsmen, or bolter bannered dark angels...or or or, you get the picture. Having high potential damage isn't amazing when the average damage is poor, as you are leaving the outcome of the game almost entirely in the dice's hands, and while it makes for a "cinematic experience", it's random as hell and it's are too inconsistent for competitive play.

This is wrong.

Due to the distribution of possible results, just looking at the average dice roll on the 3d6, will not give you the actual casualties inflicted.

50.9% chance of it hitting is right, but taking into account all possible die rolls on 3d6 after that, it will kill:

LD7: 1.86 kills
LD8: 1.44 kills
LD9: 1.06 kills
LD10: 0.74 kills

Just looking at the average 10.5 roll totally misses that rolling 18 against LD7 is 11 wounds, but rolling 3 is still just 0.

I'm not really sold on the Armored Shell Tyrant. It's a pretty high premium to pay on him and not that much less than a Flyrant who gives you a whole other world of threat-range.

2+ is nice, but nearly all of the weapons that are taken to tackle MC's are already ap2 anyways.

Someone on this board said that Nids win their games in the movement phase and I totally agree with this, with the caveat that Nids have many units that other armies do NOT want to tangle with in CC.

That said I feel that if you're paying for a Armored Tyrant you may as well just take the Swarmlord for the swiss-army knife of powers/abilities that he brings.

 More Dakka wrote:
Someone on this board said that Nids win their games in the movement phase and I totally agree with this, with the caveat that Nids have many units that other armies do NOT want to tangle with in CC.

That said I feel that if you're paying for a Armored Tyrant you may as well just take the Swarmlord for the swiss-army knife of powers/abilities that he brings.

Thanks!

But I also see the 2+ shell as being very powerful against the right enemies. Many Tau and MEQ players are actualy lacking in the AP2 range. Tau and DA in particular can play the AP2 spam when they want of course. But combined with some psychic choir a 2+ on T6 becomes increasingly more durable. It's one of those things you have to play to see the effect of.

@ductvader; You mentioned that Tau and MEQ are lacking AP2 range, but what are you arming the Armoured Tyrants with. With that statement I'm assuming it's not the TL Devourers or they wouldn't even pose a threat until they are much, much closer to the enemy army. And if you're equipping them with the other "options" (if I dare speak of them as such), you might as well save the points and get those weapons on a cheaper model. Large Blasts from the Biovores almost replicate those weapons, give or take.

Oh yes...I presumed that being in close range to AP2 already meant I was munching on the enemy's remains...

Or so it usually goes.

And no no no I would never put one of the blast options on a tyrant

What is the point of taking the Armored Shell then? lol

Saythings wrote:
What is the point of taking the Armored Shell then? lol

Getting stuck into melee of course. HVCs and Stranglethorns are garbage on Tyrants and Carnifexes.

Really my best Nid list is

HQs:
Swarmlord with either
1 tyrant guard
or
1 Tyranid Prime

Flyrants cost too much and seem to die too easily for me. Plus the Swarmlord is just an absolute powerhouse. i do use one in tournaments that are 2.5k or higher.

Elites:
2x units of 2-venomthropes for cover saves for whole army
Doom in a pod (because well its awesome)

Troops
3x tervigons. rolling on telep or telek for two powers each
3x termagants. upgraded to fleshborers (least i think thats what theyre called i dont have the book in front of me)

Fast attack
nada.

heavy support
Stonecrusher carifex-cheesy? yes it is. also legal. if not allowed at your store/tournement then take normal ones in groups of 3. run tervigons behind with biomancy to buff the group and laugh as the very scary bullet shield does its thing. run with whatever load out you like. i go with scary scythes and claws because it looks nastier and its truly funny to use. because by all rights it should be a huge points waste. works for me though.

tyranofex-ill bring it back every now and then. i painted him might as well use him. st10 shot youd think would kill more vehicles. too bad he never hits anything.

so its slightly different than the norm. but not really. theres not a whole lot of viable options that work competitvely. so people do get stuck using the same units. now for fun lists are awesome! lots of shenanigans you can do with nids there.