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Question. I was told today that Flying Monstrous Creatures in Swooping mode could still gain the cover saves of being in area terrain or directional cover like an Aegis Defense Line. Since there is nothing on the FMC page of the BRB that implies that this isn't the case, is this actually correct?

Yes, absolutely. Nothing denies them cover.
One of the trade offs for having to take grounding tests.

 Enigwolf wrote:
Question. I was told today that Flying Monstrous Creatures in Swooping mode could still gain the cover saves of being in area terrain or directional cover like an Aegis Defense Line. Since there is nothing on the FMC page of the BRB that implies that this isn't the case, is this actually correct?

I leaning towards yes, because while it is said all fliers ignore terrain for movement (ie no dangerous or difficult tests) They still benefit from the true LOS rules. So if the model is in area terrain it would benefit.

Yup TLOS, i fit gets 25% coverage it gets cover, it also gets area terrain cover like any other MC, because there is no rule denying this.

If you read the flying monstrous creature section you will notice a common trend. Even under the Swooping section you are told to treat it exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature, which would include treating them the same way for cover saves. There are five exceptions to this rule, and none of these five exceptions talk about ignoring cover saves.

Therefore, flying monstrous creatures gain cover saves in the same way Jump Monstrous Creatures do.

It’s also why other models like gargoyles are used to screen them.

I also think that a Swooping MC can go to ground. No?

thisisnotpancho wrote:
I also think that a Swooping MC can go to ground. No?

No, but they can dive for a jink save

Ok question about this TLOS
Say Tervigon is behind a bunch of Termagaunts..
And Im shooting at the Tervigon from Necron destroyers...
My necron destroyers sit high enough that really the only thing not in complete view is the tips of his toes (if thats what you'd call them)
I claimed he wasn't more than 25% covered but he said doesn't matter because he's "behind a unit"

When I say tips of his toes I mean.. 99.9% of the model was completely exposed

If you are firing through the gap of a unit, then even if the model is 100% visible, the models that are being fired upon are granted a cover save.

Note this is only for shots that go through the gaps in a unit and not over the unit.

Probably, hard to tell without a picture. Shooting through a unit (between models) confers a cover save, even if the model you're shooting at is in plain sight. Shooting over a unit, however, does not confer a cover save. Given the size difference between Termagants and Tervigons, it's entirely possible your Destroyers were indeed high enough.

Its trickily worded, and my book isn't in front of me, but quite a few people interpret that if a model is covered at all by an in-between unit that it gains a cover save.

KonTheory wrote:
Ok question about this TLOS
Say Tervigon is behind a bunch of Termagaunts..
And Im shooting at the Tervigon from Necron destroyers...
My necron destroyers sit high enough that really the only thing not in complete view is the tips of his toes (if thats what you'd call them)
I claimed he wasn't more than 25% covered but he said doesn't matter because he's "behind a unit"

When I say tips of his toes I mean.. 99.9% of the model was completely exposed

In this case then don't the shots go over the unit? What kind of cover save would you give if it goes through another unit? 5+? What if it's through three units?

KonTheory wrote:
Ok question about this TLOS
I claimed he wasn't more than 25% covered but he said doesn't matter because he's "behind a unit"

This isn't how determining cover works. You look at the model, discount the base/weapons/decorations, and determine whether it is 25% obscured from the eye-level of the firing unit. Since the Bug was not obscured, it does not get a cover save. Ask your opponent to show you in the BRB where it says, "A unit being fired upon will get a cover save if there is another unit in between." Ask him if a Ripper swarm that he happened to be shooting over (which didn't block LoS) would grant YOUR unit a cover save. I'll bet he says no.

 Enigwolf wrote:

KonTheory wrote:
Ok question about this TLOS
Say Tervigon is behind a bunch of Termagaunts..
And Im shooting at the Tervigon from Necron destroyers...
My necron destroyers sit high enough that really the only thing not in complete view is the tips of his toes (if thats what you'd call them)
I claimed he wasn't more than 25% covered but he said doesn't matter because he's "behind a unit"

When I say tips of his toes I mean.. 99.9% of the model was completely exposed

In this case then don't the shots go over the unit? What kind of cover save would you give if it goes through another unit? 5+? What if it's through three units?

The shots only go over the unit if the model is 100% visible above the unit. If it is at all obscured then the shots pass through the unit.

Intervening units do indeed grant a 5+

Through 1 unit or 3, the save does not change.

 jifel wrote:
Its trickily worded, and my book isn't in front of me, but quite a few people interpret that if a model is covered at all by an in-between unit that it gains a cover save.

It's on page 18, under the Intervening Models header:
If a target is partially hidden from the firer's view by models from a third unit (models not from the firer's unit, or from the target unit), it receives a 5+ cover save in the same way as if it was behind terrain. Similarly, if a model fires through the gaps between models in an intervening unit, the target is in cover, even if it is completely visible to the firer. Note that this does not apply if the shots go over the unit rather than through it.

I don't see what's tricky about those words, seems pretty clear to me.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Ask your opponent to show you in the BRB where it says, "A unit being fired upon will get a cover save if there is another unit in between."

Page 18 says that:

"if a model fires through the gaps between models in an intervening unit, the target is in cover, even if it is completely visible to the firer."

Ask him if a Ripper swarm that he happened to be shooting over (which didn't block LoS) would grant YOUR unit a cover save. I'll bet he says no.

That is because the shots are going over the unit, in the OP's post the shots are not going over the unit they are passing through a gap in the unit.

This is where the confusion is arising..

PG 18 RB
Intervening models
If a target is partially hidden from the firers view by the models from a third unit (models not from the firers unit, or from the target unit(, it receives a 5+ cover save in the same way as if it was behind terrain. Similarly, if a model fires through the gaps between models in an intervening unit, the target is in cover, even if it is completely visible to the firer. Note that this does not apply if the shots go over the unit rather than through it.


I guess I am in fact shooting over the unit not through it..
Ill bring this up in the next game


Automatically Appended Next Post:
sorry i went off topic on this guys thread

If the toe is obscured you're shooting through the unit, not over it.

I don't think so...
my Destroyers weapons are almost 2" of the ground
his termagants are Maybe.. half an inch...
I am definitely shooting over them..
I least thats how I see it

Seeing as how the actual rules quoted in this thread prove you wrong...

rigeld2 wrote:
If the toe is obscured you're shooting through the unit, not over it.

That's a little bit ridiculous, isn't it? Don't you need 25% obscuration? Or am I confusing that with vehicles?

Edit: Thread name changed because I am actually interested in exploring this topic further.

Vehicles must be 255 obscured. FMCs claim cover just like Infantry.

Enigwolf wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
If the toe is obscured you're shooting through the unit, not over it.

That's a little bit ridiculous, isn't it? Don't you need 25% obscuration? Or am I confusing that with vehicles?

Edit: Thread name changed because I am actually interested in exploring this topic further.

KonTheory wrote:PG 18 RB
Intervening models
If a target is partially hidden from the firers view by the models from a third unit (models not from the firers unit, or from the target unit(, it receives a 5+ cover save in the same way as if it was behind terrain. Similarly, if a model fires through the gaps between models in an intervening unit, the target is in cover, even if it is completely visible to the firer. Note that this does not apply if the shots go over the unit rather than through it.

Note how it mentions nothing about 25% coverage. Terrain has to be 25% - other units is any of the model.

25% is indeed only for vehicles. For the Tervigon it's basically like this:



Terivgon gets a 5+ cover save. Ghost Ark doesn't.



No cover save for anyone. Note that you have to be pretty high, about the 2nd story of a ruin for this angle.

Last sentence says..
Does not apply if the shots go over the unit...
also it says
receives the 5+ cover save, the same way as if it were behind terrain.. makes me think this means 25% although I am unsure

KonTheory wrote:
Last sentence says..
Does not apply if the shots go over the unit...
also it says
receives the 5+ cover save, the same way as if it were behind terrain.. makes me think this means 25% although I am unsure

The 25% rule is only for vehicles (page 74). Unlike previous edition, Monstrous Creatures now follow the same rules for infantry. So you also get a cover save just by standing in area terrain, even if you're in plain sight.

And if the model is obscured your shots are not going over the target unit.

It doesn't mention 25% so it's not required.

 Redemption wrote:

 jifel wrote:
Its trickily worded, and my book isn't in front of me, but quite a few people interpret that if a model is covered at all by an in-between unit that it gains a cover save.

It's on page 18, under the Intervening Models header:
If a target is partially hidden from the firer's view by models from a third unit (models not from the firer's unit, or from the target unit), it receives a 5+ cover save in the same way as if it was behind terrain. Similarly, if a model fires through the gaps between models in an intervening unit, the target is in cover, even if it is completely visible to the firer. Note that this does not apply if the shots go over the unit rather than through it.

I don't see what's tricky about those words, seems pretty clear to me.

"If a target is partially hidden from the firer's view by models from a third unit..."

It never says that the covered unit has to be 25% covered. So technically, gants covering one claw of a Tervigon do cover it "partially", as it never specifies the 25%.

However, some people say that the 25% is implied.

Interesting...
In our game he took the 5+ cover save, I wanted wanted to look into it more..
Thanks for the help guys..
Although it seems a little ridiculous.. I have seen worse haha