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I took two to a recent tournament and they performed really well. They were ridiculous vs my first opponent (DE) murdering all of his armour, killed 4 killer kans in my second game and got me linebreaker in my third as they just careened across the board snapfiring at SOB squads. My question is, given the relative ubiquitousness of xenos armour/flyers in tournament settings, are hydras viable in competitive builds?

It all depends on your metagame. If you have lots of flyers they're alright, though worse than Vendettas and they suffer from the always shoots second problem against flyers. If you don't see many flyers they're not worth it as snap-fire autocannons are pathetic.

Snap sots hurt them real hard. I like them on account of cheapness of another AV 12 hull

Compare them to the Annihilation Barge and you'll get a good indication.

Nothing is as good for the points as the annihilation barge. My hydras have killed an annihilation barge each game they have played against them though. I am averaging 2 hits with the autocannons on ground targets which is enough to put the hurt on light armour and then heavy bolters at BS3. A squad of two puts out 14 shots and they are one of the few reliable ways to counter wave serpents. As for toiling against flyers because you have to go second - reserve them, they still fire one of their autocannons at BS 3 when moving six which is enough to put the hurt on the majority of flyers (helldrake excluded) Finally, they can cause problems for bikes relying on 2+ cover save e.g black knights, eldar jetbikes. However, I must acknowledge that having bought the models, I am biased and probably looking at them with rose tinted glasses...

 jamin484 wrote:
However, I must acknowledge that having bought the models, I am biased and probably looking at them with rose tinted glasses...

Yes. Do the math on STR 7 vs. AV 10 and you'll find that what you think of as "putting the hurt on" is really not that much of a threat.

I'll be interested to see how GW's new quad-laser turret terrain compares with something like the hydra. Not a direct comparison obviously, given the different weapons and mobility, but it's an interesting new AA choice.

With eldar skimmers getting more and more popular they might be worthwhile. Remember, skyfire is against fliers AND skimmers at full BS. Ignoring that jink and able to put glances on WS may be a necessary piece of IG forces in upcoming competitions.

They are also a good way to wound and cause grounding tests for FMCs.

Recently used one in a game against Eldar. These things inspire an amazing amount of fear for flyer/skimmer based armies.

I like the Hyrda, though I still think they are only worth taking if you know ahead of time you are facing multiple flyers/skimmers. Otherwise the heavy slot is much better saved for something else.

They're very cheap. That's a big pro. They compete with HS slots, though, which is a big con. As others have mentioned, if you have a specific need for anti-flier, then fine, but you don't need anti-flier to handle fliers.

Given that said other options don't snap-fire against ground targets...

Now, if you were talking about low-point games with a serious risk of fliers or dark eldar, then yeah, they're not that bad. Once you start playing with more points, and have less of a chance of seeing skimmers or fliers, you should generally pass on them for better stuff.

I'll be using the DKoK assault brigade as well as the basic IG codex so hydras can be taken as elites as well. Can they be justified in that circumstance do you think?

The issue with the Hydra is that it's circumstancial. If your opponent brought no flyers and isn't a skimmer army, then the Hydras aren't doing squat. That said, they will very certainly honk off certain armies. Hydras are absolutely brutal against Dark Eldar, they're also really good against normal Eldar (especially if they're bringing a Nightwing and that 2+ jink save on their AV10 HP2 flyer gets ignored).

But yeah, in general the Snapfire thing really hurts, they're the only unit in the game that cares about that restriction apparently, despite their fluff saying otherwise.


As for a DKoK Assault Brigade, they're elites units in that army instead of HS, but the basic problem of being worthless against many opponents remains.If you're going for a fully mech assault brigade, then I'd take them, if not, use those Elites slots for Rapier Laser Destroyers, which can serve in a pinch as AA due to being Twin Linked.

 Vaktathi wrote:
As for a DKoK Assault Brigade, they're elites units in that army instead of HS, but the basic problem of being worthless against many opponents remains.If you're going for a fully mech assault brigade, then I'd take them, if not, use those Elites slots for Rapier Laser Destroyers, which can serve in a pinch as AA due to being Twin Linked.

Yeah, the funny thing is that Hydras aren't that much better at AA. Against an AV 12 flyer (the ones you're most afraid of) the Hydra gives you 0.5 pens, while equal points in Rapiers gives you 0.375 pens at AP 2. Yeah, the Hydra gets to ignore jink saves and gives you more glances, but that's really not very impressive for a dedicated single-role AA specialist.

And of course if we put that AV 12 target on the ground the Hydra is down to 0.2 AP 4 pens, while the equal-point Rapiers do 1.1125.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
As for a DKoK Assault Brigade, they're elites units in that army instead of HS, but the basic problem of being worthless against many opponents remains.If you're going for a fully mech assault brigade, then I'd take them, if not, use those Elites slots for Rapier Laser Destroyers, which can serve in a pinch as AA due to being Twin Linked.

Yeah, the funny thing is that Hydras aren't that much better at AA. Against an AV 12 flyer (the ones you're most afraid of) the Hydra gives you 0.5 pens, while equal points in Rapiers gives you 0.375 pens at AP 2. Yeah, the Hydra gets to ignore jink saves and gives you more glances, but that's really not very impressive for a dedicated single-role AA specialist.

And of course if we put that AV 12 target on the ground the Hydra is down to 0.2 AP 4 pens, while the equal-point Rapiers do 1.1125.

But at what point difference? Not arguing, just truly curious!

 alarmingrick wrote:
But at what point difference? Not arguing, just truly curious!

A Rapier is about 2/3 the cost of a Hydra. But I've accounted for that already by increasing the Rapier's numbers to represent an equal point value of each.

if you need anti-air i'd rather take Vendettas/Sabres/Vultures. I'd keep the HS for barrages like Manticores, Thudd Guns or Heavy Artillery platforms (I like Griffons too due to the cheap cost and reroll, Str.6 is good enough vs Xenos). Those are just my $0.02 though.

 Peregrine wrote:

 alarmingrick wrote:
But at what point difference? Not arguing, just truly curious!

A Rapier is about 2/3 the cost of a Hydra. But I've accounted for that already by increasing the Rapier's numbers to represent an equal point value of each.

But some of us don't have accsess to Rapiers, we only have access Hydra's.

 Anpu42 wrote:
But some of us don't have accsess to Rapiers, we only have access Hydra's.

So stop playing with weird self-imposed rules about what units you're allowed to take?

(Unless of course you're playing an ABG list, I guess.)

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 alarmingrick wrote:
But at what point difference? Not arguing, just truly curious!

A Rapier is about 2/3 the cost of a Hydra. But I've accounted for that already by increasing the Rapier's numbers to represent an equal point value of each.

But some of us don't have accsess to Rapiers, we only have access Hydra's.

No being a jerk, but how can you have access to one but not the other? I built my Hydras myself(in my gallery), but if I was interested in the Rapier, I'd probably order them. I'm actually more interested in Sabre platforms or I'd pursue the Rapier route.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
But some of us don't have accsess to Rapiers, we only have access Hydra's.

So stop playing with weird self-imposed rules about what units you're allowed to take?

(Unless of course you're playing an ABG list, I guess.)

It's not necessarily self-imposed. Some groups of folks don't use FW.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
But some of us don't have access to Rapiers, we only have access Hydra's.

So stop playing with weird self-imposed rules about what units you're allowed to take?

(Unless of course you're playing an ABG list, I guess.)

Its not a weird “Self Imposed Rule”.
1] Some Places don’t allow Forge World.
2] Some of us don’t Have Rapiers or anything to Proxy for them.

Our group is perfectly fine with most Forge World; we just don’t have any at the moment, though I do have 3 Hydras. I will probly start using as the Ork Player discovered Dakka-Jets and likes to use the Choppers.

 LValx wrote:
It's not necessarily self-imposed. Some groups of folks don't use FW.

Then stop playing with those people, just like you'd stop playing with them if they told you that you're not allowed to play orks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Anpu42 wrote:
1] Some Places don’t allow Forge World.

That is a self-imposed rule. It's not part of the rules as published by GW, it's a limit you and the other players are imposing on yourselves.

2] Some of us don’t Have Rapiers or anything to Proxy for them.

Proxying them is easy, just use lascannon HWTs. It's not perfect, but it's roughly the same size and you could even glue a second lascannon barrel onto the gun so it's obvious that it's something different.

And of course if you're buying new models for your army the Rapier is cheaper and probably won't end up thrown across the room in frustration when you can't get the autocannon barrels to stop looking like a pretzel.

 Peregrine wrote:

And of course if you're buying new models for your army the Rapier is cheaper and probably won't end up thrown across the room in frustration when you can't get the autocannon barrels to stop looking like a pretzel.

Exactly why I scratch built my Hydras, and am a little nervous about getting the Sabres! I hate trying to make that crap straight!

 alarmingrick wrote:
Exactly why I scratch built my Hydras, and am a little nervous about getting the Sabres! I hate trying to make that crap straight!

Sabres should be fine, those are just standard lascannons. The Hydra guns are a problem because they're really long and thin, and apparently get taken out of the mold too soon so the warping can become permanent. My single Hydra turned out just fine, but you know there's a problem when even the pictures in the rulebook have obviously warped barrels.

Peregrine.. Some folks don't care to play with FW, I wouldn't advise refusing to play with people at your FLGS just because of that.

 LValx wrote:
Peregrine.. Some folks don't care to play with FW, I wouldn't advise refusing to play with people at your FLGS just because of that.

Why not? If someone told me I'm not allowed to use my Tau army I'd tell them to off and find someone else to play, so why should I treat them any differently just because they're refusing to allow a different set of rules? In either case if they want to have a house rule that my army isn't legal I'll take my business elsewhere (or just stay home and do something else).

Instead of topics getting drug OT every time with the back and forth over the FW debate, how about those opposed just ignore it.
Treat it like a model you don't own or whatever. For those on the Pro FW side, don't try to shove it down some ones throat who has
clearly stated that it isn't there cup of tea, self imposed or otherwise. I think we are smart enough to get along without getting mired
in this every time, all the time.....

/

 Peregrine wrote:

 LValx wrote:
Peregrine.. Some folks don't care to play with FW, I wouldn't advise refusing to play with people at your FLGS just because of that.

Why not? If someone told me I'm not allowed to use my Tau army I'd tell them to off and find someone else to play, so why should I treat them any differently just because they're refusing to allow a different set of rules? In either case if they want to have a house rule that my army isn't legal I'll take my business elsewhere (or just stay home and do something else).

That is not quite the same as disallowing Forge World.
Every Game Store that has 40k stuff has a Tau Codex, some even have a “Store Copy” for those who do not have one or forgot theirs.
Not every Game Store has Forge World Books and Rules. So if you don’t bring a copy o the rules for your Forge World stuff everyone has to take your word on it. Our local Game Store had a simple Policy, if you don’t have the Rules for something you can’t use it in “Official” Games. This prevented a lot of TFGs and WAAC Players from puling stuff.

As far as our group, we allow Forge World, I have made a pair of Malicors out of a pair 1/35 Scale King Tigers and no one has issues with them. We have one player who uses Contemnor Dreads [old 1st edition models]. We have no issues with this.

We don’t discriminate vs. Forge World, we just don’t use it much.

I like playing with FW it's lots of fun. I like playing against people who don't like playing FW armies its still lots of fun. I like playing games not getting into hypothetical arguments online about whether FW is 'valid' or not. As much as I admire Peregrines tactical nous and knowledge I don't feel it is necessary to berate people that don't choose to play with FW. To be honest I think I might start refusing to play the necron codex and I wouldn'y want to get cheeked because I refuse to play a game I know wont be fun/fair.

Regardless I'm gonna persevere with my Hydras (because they look badass and I'm a sucker for a nice model) Its perhaps worth noting that in my 1250 list I take hydras and a vendetta and I don't see the hydras as dedicated anti air more dedicated anti zenos skimmer (tau, eldar, necron, dark eldar)