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Mr.Church13 wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:
But why would anyone want to? Without the context of the Iyanden Background, which is in turn brought to life in the missions, they are just random numbers and stats. What's the point? I can write you 10 pages of random rule-swap-gak and "this-item-lets-one-HQ-do-X" for a dollar if that's what you're looking for.

Sigh. Again you ignore the point I've made several times, that for many of us it's about what other people are using. If the Iyanden supplement rules are legal for use in general games outside of the special Iyanden missions then my Eldar opponent might have them in their army, and I want to know what those rules are. I don't really care about the fluff, I just don't want to be surprised by rules I've never seen before.

So why not have the opponent let you look at his copy of the rules? It's just two pages as you say and not at all hard to digest.

Exactly. This is one of your constant arguments in favor of allowing FW in tournament play, how is it different for the supplements. Not to mention the rules in the Iyanden book, while they take up 2 pages, are hardly 2 full pages worth of rules changes. The number of changes and just how different the rules are from Codex: Eldar is slight. You can literally engage in a conversation on a Forum about the rules supplements and be fully informed, no pirating needed.

From the FW in Tournaments Thread.

 Peregrine wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
The reasonable counter to this argument is that Games Workshop sponsors exactly 0 tournaments these days.

But the point is FW rules are part of the game, and excluding them should be treated with the same contempt as the comp-heavy events that do stuff like banning allies or making dedicated transports 0-1 because it "isn't fluffy". The default should be that everything in the standard game is legal, and people don't have to worry about the new Eldar codex being randomly banned because some people don't like it.

For the record, I'm neither for nor against, though I don't like the idea of running into a "Hey, gotcha!" situation unless I pay out the ass for a ton of books I'll never use myself.

How is that any different from the situation with codex armies? Buying every codex in the game to be familiar with the armies you don't play costs even more than buying all the FW books, and somehow people manage to deal with it. Either you borrow them from someone else, you ask to look at the relevant rules before each game, or you pirate them like most people already do. And even if you don't want to do any of those things you can still just read tactics forums and get a pretty good idea of what most competitive-level units can do.

And at least, unlike the SoB "codex", you can buy everything. You're going to be pretty surprised if an SoB player shows up at a tournament and you haven't pirated their codex.

 Ovion wrote:

 gossipmeng wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
[

Unless you play competitively and want to know what your opponents could have in your army, but don't want to pirate it. It's not a trivial problem when the cost of keeping up with the competition has just doubled (or more, if armies get more than one supplement).

You could always go to your local store and check out the book.... if is only 2 pages of rules after all. Wouldn't take more than 5 minutes to skim it.

Unfortunately, on this count you can't.
Supplements are direct only. :(

To be honest, it's got 2/3 the content of a regular codex, so really, by rights, it should be 2/3 the cost - and honestly, I'd be OK at £20.
Having looked at Iyanden, it's got a ton of great info and artwork. £30 is just a bit much at the end of the day...

- The Iyanden supplement is not direct only. My local GW store has copies of it (the guy running it tried to sell me one as he knows I play Eldar).

I would happily pay £30 if the book had around 10-15 pages of fluff and 2-4 pages of rules for each of the unique craftworlds (Ulthwe, Biel Tan, Saim Hann, Alaitoc and Iyanden) like the last Codex Craftworld Eldar did. That to me would be worth the money. Codex Iyanden at £30 is not.

Then again I don't plan to play a fluffy Iyanden Wraith list. If I did, I might be more interested in the background which would make me more likely to buy the book.

 rohansoldier wrote:

 Ovion wrote:

 gossipmeng wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
[

Unless you play competitively and want to know what your opponents could have in your army, but don't want to pirate it. It's not a trivial problem when the cost of keeping up with the competition has just doubled (or more, if armies get more than one supplement).

You could always go to your local store and check out the book.... if is only 2 pages of rules after all. Wouldn't take more than 5 minutes to skim it.

Unfortunately, on this count you can't.
Supplements are direct only. :(

To be honest, it's got 2/3 the content of a regular codex, so really, by rights, it should be 2/3 the cost - and honestly, I'd be OK at £20.
Having looked at Iyanden, it's got a ton of great info and artwork. £30 is just a bit much at the end of the day...

- The Iyanden supplement is not direct only. My local GW store has copies of it (the guy running it tried to sell me one as he knows I play Eldar).

I would happily pay £30 if the book had around 10-15 pages of fluff and 2-4 pages of rules for each of the unique craftworlds (Ulthwe, Biel Tan, Saim Hann, Alaitoc and Iyanden) like the last Codex Craftworld Eldar did. That to me would be worth the money. Codex Iyanden at £30 is not.

Then again I don't plan to play a fluffy Iyanden Wraith list. If I did, I might be more interested in the background which would make me more likely to buy the book.

My local GW told me that it's direct only (which is also why thrid party stores don't have it), and was complaining because he wanted a proper look at it.
Your local GW must of got it somehow though.

Speaking of which, the US website says Iyanden is shipping in several weeks, so I guess it's available again.

Just for clarity again if you're fine with having to pay large amounts of money for FW rules I don't see how you can be against paying less for the Iyanden Supplement. Then again, as you have stated before, no one can be completely familiar with all the rules from all the codices let alone all the codices+FW books so why make mountain out of a mole hill on this one? If you can't be 100% familiar with all the rules anyway that is, again according to you.

Peregrine wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
(as there are what 13 or so FW IA books)

Depends on the army. For my Tau I just need the codex and IA3. And when the codex costs $50 and Riptides are $80 each spending another $80-90 on IA3 isn't a big deal.

 hippesthippo wrote:
Now imagine what it will be like once everyone else has finished buying/painting their IG armies, bc it has only just started.

There will be no paper version in July. And ATM I am not sure, if the supplement is in any way as big as the Iyanden one.

Re: my supposed "inconsistency" with FW vs. supplements:

1) I'm not arguing that the supplements should be banned. If they say "for normal games" (IOW, not limited to the special supplement missions) then you can take them and should be allowed to use them in tournaments. Just like with FW books the difficulty/cost of getting access to the rules doesn't justify telling people they aren't welcome at events unless they change their perfectly legal army.

2) FW books are a lot more reasonable as a product. Yes they're expensive, but you get a lot of content for that price. For example, for $45 (including shipping) IA:Aeronautica (a pure rules book) compiles 47 units across pretty much every army. For $90 IA3 gives you all of the Tau units and the complete Elysian drop troops list, in addition to 200+ pages of fluff, campaign missions, color schemes, etc. For $50 the Iyanden supplement gives you two pages of rules and 70 pages of fluff. See the difference?

So, my point is not that getting access to the Iyanden rules is impossible, or that they need to be banned. My point is that I hate GW for removing stuff from the codex to release it as day-one DLC and effectively doubling the price of the Eldar codex for much less than double the content. Whether or not you personally need/want the book there are people who want to have a copy of all of the rules for 40k, and GW's new day-one DLC plan is a significant increase in the cost of doing so.

(Of course let's be honest here: many of them will just pirate the book, but it's not exactly hard to imagine day-one DLC pushing more people to say " this" and just pirate everything.)

 agnosto wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

 Harriticus wrote:
GW gets into the day 1 DLC game.

They learned a new trick from the people that made the warhammer quest app; $5 for 1/2 a game and then the privilege to spend more money on the stuff that was released at the same time as then app.

Oh bs. There was no trick there, and there was certainly no "1/2 a game." What you paid $6.99 was MORE than a full game with plenty of variety of characters. Get over it.

Retract your claws good madam. Complete game says you; however, it was released with DLC thus the term "day 1 DLC" which as any sane person will tell you is naught but a money grab.

On Topic.
Though I like the idea of these supplements, the pricing and single-source availability are off-putting.

A game is not distributed the moment it's gone gold. There is a lot of time between when the game goes gold and when it reaches shelves. There is also time near the end of the dev cycle when the developers can't just add new content. At that time, code writers and asset creators aren't twiddling their thumbs, they're making DLC content and/or fixing bugs that will be available as soon as possible. Day 1 DLC is not necessarily content withheld with the intent of making the customer pay more; it depends on the attitudes of the developer and publisher.

 undertow wrote:

 Harriticus wrote:
GW gets into the day 1 DLC game.

Except in this case by 'Day 1' you mean 'Day 60' (or so).

I believe Day 1 was a reference to the Iyanden book, which was advertised in WD in the Eldar release issue, as opposed to this Farsight "book".

I'm actually kinda excited about the book, mostly because I'm interested in reading all the fluff. the Farsight faction fluff has always been kinda scarce, restricted to one or two pages of total content in the codex, and I'm really kinda keen to get the whole story behind them.


Another thing... I'm actually kinda excited about the idea of being able to play a Farsight Enclave force, with fluffy and yes admittedly quite minimal (two pages *grumble*) rules to support that, and also without having to take Farsight as my warlord.

Does anyone have the date this is supposed to be released?

There is one thing that kinda bugs me about this whole thing. Do we actually know if the supplement will only contains two pages of rules? I doubt it would be less but it could always be more.

Mr.Church13 wrote:
There is one thing that kinda bugs me about this whole thing. Do we actually know if the supplement will only contains two pages of rules? I doubt it would be less but it could always be more.

Keep an open and optimistic mindset. It may even have 50% more pages of rules than the Iyanden one at no additional cost. Who luvs ya, baby! GW does!

 warboss wrote:
Who luvs ya, baby! GW does!

Well, in the same way that a physically abusive partner does.

 Peregrine wrote:


2) FW books are a lot more reasonable as a product. Yes they're expensive, but you get a lot of content for that price. For example, for $45 (including shipping) IA:Aeronautica (a pure rules book) compiles 47 units across pretty much every army. For $90 IA3 gives you all of the Tau units and the complete Elysian drop troops list, in addition to 200+ pages of fluff, campaign missions, color schemes, etc. For $50 the Iyanden supplement gives you two pages of rules and 70 pages of fluff. See the difference?

That is simply not true.

a) Forge World has in its entire history not produced a book even remotely as fun to read as the Iyanden Codex.

b) There are no missing rules in the Eldar Codex. It's written to the exact format of all other 6th Edition Codexes and allows you, among other things, to play an Iyanden Army without trouble.

c) The rules in the Iyanden book would be largely counterproductive in the main Eldar Codex. Quite the opposite. Things like, say, Warlord Traits or Primaris Psyker powers that work on Wraithguards only would've sparked major nerd-rage among people who, say, want to play a Saim-Hann Jetbike army only to have their Warlord end up with a Wraithguard-buffing power.

d) The Iyanden Book gives plenty of missions and a few alternative colour-schemes. And it does NOT give you an alternative list, and does NOT give you rules for new units, so you don't NEED to buy it like you'd need to buy IA3 for an Elysian Drop Troop list or to use a particular Tau Vehicle that isn't in the GW main Codex. I thought that was the point? That is why Iyanden is optional.

 Zweischneid wrote:
a) Forge World has in its entire history not produced a book even remotely as fun to read as the Iyanden Codex.

That's personal preference. IMO the Iyanden book was nothing special.

b) There are no missing rules in the Eldar Codex. It's written to the exact format of all other 6th Edition Codexes and allows you, among other things, to play an Iyanden Army without trouble.

Of course there are missing rules. The Iyanden rules should have been in the codex, just like C:SM didn't have only Ultramarines rules with supplements for the other chapters.

c) The rules in the Iyanden book would be largely counterproductive in the main Eldar Codex. Quite the opposite. Things like, say, Warlord Traits or Primaris Psyker powers that work on Wraithguards only would've sparked major nerd-rage among people who, say, want to play a Saim-Hann Jetbike army only to have their Warlord end up with a Wraithguard-buffing power.

Only if GW is completely incompetent. It would be trivially easy to make multiple warlord trait tables that you could roll on, a third set of psychic powers, etc.

d) The Iyanden Book gives plenty of missions and a few alternative colour-schemes. And it does NOT give you an alternative list, and does NOT give you rules for new units, so you don't NEED to buy it like you'd need to buy IA3 for an Elysian Drop Troop list or to use a particular Tau Vehicle that isn't in the GW main Codex. I thought that was the point? That is why Iyanden is optional.

Wait, so let me get this straight: the Iyanden book has much less content than IA3 for over half the price and you think this is a good thing?

 Peregrine wrote:


Wait, so let me get this straight: the Iyanden book has much less content than IA3 for over half the price and you think this is a good thing?

It's not an argument about good or bad. The Iyanden books is - in my personal opinion as you say - one of the best books for WH40K in a long, long, very long time. But that might just be me.

Yet your (!) argument was that - starting from an IMO somewhat deluded assumption that there is a necessity to own all rules, even those you don't play personally - there is an implicit pressure on GW's behalf to buy this book.

If that is true, than the pressure to buy the IA3 book, which (unlike Iyanden) actually does include rules necessary to play units which you cannot play straight from the Tau Codex / Imperial Guard Codex, is infinitely greater. If you argue that Iyanden rules could've easily been integrated into the Eldar Codex, than the IA3 rules could've just as easily been integrated into the Tau / Imperial Guard Codex.

Finally, IA books are significantly more expensive than the Iyanden book, so (assuming a need-to-buy-obligation) the financial burden imposed by IA books is significantly greater. This, you keep justifying with the fact that the IA books simply offer quantitatively more rules, even though it is widely acknowledged that in smooth game design, less is usually more as far as rules go.

The fact that Forge World actually needed to write an entire new army list to make Elysians work, rather than using - occam's razor - the standard Imperial Guard list, perhaps with an alternative HQ or a variant Warlord Trait list, is testimony to the vastly inferiour game-developing skills among the Forge World team compared to the GW-studio and the brilliant minimalist approach seen, not least, in the Iyanden book.

 Peregrine wrote:


Of course there are missing rules. The Iyanden rules should have been in the codex, just like C:SM didn't have only Ultramarines rules with supplements for the other chapters.

So there are missing rules from the Dark Angels, Daemons, Tau and CSM codices then are there?

 Zweischneid wrote:
People really need to stop obsessing over the rules. The rules are the least important part of the Iyanden supplement and, as pointed out frequently, not the reason to buy it.

Buy it for the background and history and the historical missions that allow you to re-create the Iyanden background on the table. And to make these missions work, they've also added a few rules... big deal.

It's really more a Crusade of Fire-style book, but build around an actual faction (and their history in the 40K universe) instead of some pointless conflict made up only for Crusade of Fire, which noone ever heard about before.


I really don't see how this is a problem. If you are genuinely interesting in Iyanden (or Farsight); you want that background, whether it has rules or not (for Iyanden at least, as the fluff is pure brilliance, we'll see how it'll go for Farsight). If you aren't interested in Iyanden, there'd be no reason to buy this book, even if it came with several hundred pages of rules, no?

Not to mention that, for games in general, rules should always be less, not more, if humanly possible. A game (gaming supplement) with 20 pages of rules is usually superior to a game (gaming supplement) with 50 pages of rules.

I agree, but in the cases of players who have been around for decades, what does the Iyanden book really add as new Fluff?

Of course there is the 6th retcon of some of the things, and maybe addition to one or two characters fluff and such, but does it provides enough new material for someone who knows the Eldar fluff since Rogue trader or 3Ed?

I mean if they do a World Eaters or Traitor Legions or whatnot supplement, i hardly think that any of the new fluff, will make me buy it, but then again i bought the RoC books for 50$, but their is the collectible and OOP aspect and value of thoses.

So in the end, does the new bits of fluff really appeal and justify that the rules arn't the most important thing in the book?

 Zweischneid wrote:
Yet your (!) argument was that - starting from an IMO somewhat deluded assumption that there is a necessity to own all rules, even those you don't play personally - there is an implicit pressure on GW's behalf to buy this book.

And I clearly said that the extra cost is a problem IF you want to have access to all of the rules for 40k. If you're one of the people who don't care about that congratulations, this doesn't apply to you. But the fact that you don't feel the need to own everything doesn't mean that everyone else shares your opinion.

If you argue that Iyanden rules could've easily been integrated into the Eldar Codex, than the IA3 rules could've just as easily been integrated into the Tau / Imperial Guard Codex.

Except that:

1) The IG codex was printed long before supplements existed or the Elysian list was updated for 6th edition. Putting those rules in the IG codex would have been impossible.

2) There's established precedent that FW kind of does their own thing. Continuing to have rules for FW models published in separate books is entirely different from day-one DLC like the supplements.

Finally, IA books are significantly more expensive than the Iyanden book, so (assuming a need-to-buy-obligation) the financial burden imposed by IA books is significantly greater. This, you keep justifying with the fact that the IA books simply offer quantitatively more rules, even though it is widely acknowledged that in smooth game design, less is usually more as far as rules go.

Yes, it's about twice as expensive, but it also contains more than twice as much content (both fluff and rules). If you look at what you get for your money the FW book is a much better deal.

Also, less is more when you're talking about elegant design of single items. It's not at all the same when you're talking about getting one item vs. many items.

The fact that Forge World actually needed to write an entire new army list to make Elysians work, rather than using - occam's razor - the standard Imperial Guard list, perhaps with an alternative HQ or a variant Warlord Trait list, is testimony to the vastly inferiour game-developing skills among the Forge World team compared to the GW-studio and the brilliant minimalist approach seen, not least, in the Iyanden book.

Err, lol? Trying to make the IG codex work as a proper Elysian army would have been an awkward mess. It could be done, but by the time you've made all the necessary changes you've got a document that is much less elegant than just making a separate army list. But I don't know, maybe you think a bunch of Iyanden-style "replace X option with Y option" nonsense is better design than just re-printing everything with X replaced with Y.

Also, "brilliant minimalist design" is a pretty optimistic way of describing it. I prefer "lazy design", since that's exactly what it is: you get a set of add-on rules that even you admit aren't all that important, and no restrictions on taking un-fluffy elements or balancing factors to make you pay a price for getting the new options.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:


I agree, but in the cases of players who have been around for decades, what does the Iyanden book really add as new Fluff?

So in the end, does the new bits of fluff really appeal and justify that the rules arn't the most important thing in the book?

Does the 40K Fluff justify one of the most expensive games around?

If the fluff isn't for you, you might as well play Snap, Flip-a-Coin or Rock-Paper-Scissor? No? The entire hobby of 40K (and the money one needs to spend on it) certainly cannot in any way be justified by the rules (really, have you ever seen somebody say they play 40K for the rules? Would you play 40K with abstract Risk-Gaming-Pieces simply because it's such a great set of rules?)

That said, what fluff was there about Iyanden?

Codex Eldar 4th Edition wrote:
“Once the largest and most populous of the craftworlds, Iyanden has been reduced to a shadow of its former glory in a bitter war with the Tyranid race. It was an attack by the Tyranid hive fleet known as Kraken that rang the death knell for the craftworld. Thousands upon thousands of its warriors fell in battle against the Great Devourer. On the verge of utter defeat, Iyanden was saved from extermination by the return of Prince Yriel and his Eldritch Raiders.“

Codex Eldar 6th Edition wrote:
"Once the largest and most populous of all the craftworlds, Iyanden has been reduced to a shadow of its former glory in a bitter war with the Tyranids. Thousands upon thousands of its noble warriors fell in battle against the Great Devourer. On the verge of utter defeat, Iyanden was saved from extermination by the return of Prince Yriel and his Eldritch Raiders."

All "we" knew from the 4th Edition Codex Eldar was that they were intergalactic roadkill too slow to get out of the way of the incoming Nids.

And the 6th Edition Codex Eldar fluff is a celebration of Phil Kelly's incredible copy-&-paste skills.

I think Iyanden's story was a story well worth telling in more detail. But, obviously, if you're not interested in an expansion Iyanden's background, don't buy the book! (duh!) Because you're not missing anything!! Why would you be even interested in the 2 pages of rules in the book if you're not interested in the background in the first place?

 shamikebab wrote:
So there are missing rules from the Dark Angels, Daemons, Tau and CSM codices then are there?

Tau are obviously missing the Farsight stuff. When the codex was released I immediately noticed a Farsight-shaped hole in the book that suddenly made sense when the Iyanden supplement was announced. Like the Eldar codex they've pretty obviously cut out that content to sell it as another expensive book.

DA/CSM/Demons, I don't think so, since we haven't heard anything about new supplements for them yet and I haven't seen too many complaints about things that are obviously missing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Zweischneid wrote:
Why would you be even interested in the 2 pages of rules in the book if you're not interested in the background in the first place?

Because you want to know what your opponents are going to bring, or because it makes your Eldar army better at winning. You really need to learn that not everyone shares your priorities and stop assuming that if they don't care as much about the fluff as you do they shouldn't be playing 40k.

 Peregrine wrote:

DA/CSM/Demons, I don't think so, since we haven't heard anything about new supplements for them yet and I haven't seen too many complaints about things that are obviously missing.

Legion rules?

 Peregrine wrote:


Because you want to know what your opponents are going to bring, or because it makes your Eldar army better at winning. You really need to learn that not everyone shares your priorities and stop assuming that if they don't care as much about the fluff as you do they shouldn't be playing 40k.

I know that not everyone shares my priorities. You and I have different opinions.

But it seems ludicrous to ask GW to not publish rules so people not interested in these rules either way would not have to buy them out of some self-imposed rule to "own everything", even though there are actually people out there that do enjoy expanded background rules for, as one example, the Iyanden Craftworld, and would actually want to buy it in order to actually play it.

It's like saying "I don't like Orks and would never play them, but because I "must" buy the book because I may face them on the table, I'd rather have GW discontinue Orks". I believe the "right" for people who enjoy Orks to actually have an Ork Codex would trump the "economical concerns" of the non-Ork-playing-obsessive-book-collectors.

There is, in your words, a "precedent" among tournaments, etc.. to bring the rules for YOUR army and models, and to have those rules available for your opponent to look at if needed. That particular norm has worked very well in the past. It would work like a charm with the Iyanden (or any other) Supplement too.

 Peregrine wrote:

 shamikebab wrote:
So there are missing rules from the Dark Angels, Daemons, Tau and CSM codices then are there?

Tau are obviously missing the Farsight stuff. When the codex was released I immediately noticed a Farsight-shaped hole in the book that suddenly made sense when the Iyanden supplement was announced. Like the Eldar codex they've pretty obviously cut out that content to sell it as another expensive book.

DA/CSM/Demons, I don't think so, since we haven't heard anything about new supplements for them yet and I haven't seen too many complaints about things that are obviously missing.

But what content is in those books that isn't in the Eldar and Tau books? If they announce a Codex: World Eaters will Codex CSM suddenly have missing rules? Making a supplement doesn't suddenly mean there are things missing from the original codex. What codex has 2 warlord tables, 2 sets of relics etc? It would be a bit odd if Codex Eldar randomly had the rule to make a Wraithknight or Wraithlord your warlord. This is extra stuff, not held back for 'dlc' stuff.

 Zweischneid wrote:
But it seems ludicrous to ask GW to not publish rules so people not interested in these rules either way would not have to buy them out of some self-imposed rule to "own everything", even though there are actually people out there that do enjoy expanded background rules for, as one example, the Iyanden Craftworld, and would actually want to buy it in order to actually play it.

I'm not asking them to not publish the rules, I'm asking them to put them in the codex instead of keeping them separate to sell as day-one DLC. If the fluff about Iyanden is so great then they can sell a fluff-only supplement (with special missions if you want) that doesn't contain rules that are used in normal games.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 shamikebab wrote:
Making a supplement doesn't suddenly mean there are things missing from the original codex.

The important part is that it's a supplement soon after the codex is released. A supplement for C:SM would be fine, since it's almost certainly new material that couldn't have been in the codex even if GW wanted it to be. But when you have stuff like the Tau codex having minimal fluff and rules for Farsight because they're about to release a $50 Farsight book it really is something missing from the codex.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:
But it seems ludicrous to ask GW to not publish rules so people not interested in these rules either way would not have to buy them out of some self-imposed rule to "own everything", even though there are actually people out there that do enjoy expanded background rules for, as one example, the Iyanden Craftworld, and would actually want to buy it in order to actually play it.

I'm not asking them to not publish the rules, I'm asking them to put them in the codex instead of keeping them separate to sell as day-one DLC. If the fluff about Iyanden is so great then they can sell a fluff-only supplement (with special missions if you want) that doesn't contain rules that are used in normal games.

But why would you separate the rules from the fluff that goes with them? It's like asking GW to publish the rules for Orks in the Chaos Marines Codex? If the Iyanden fluff and the Iyanden missions are in the Iyanden book, why would you separate the rules to a different book?

The Ork rules are also published in the Ork Codex with the Ork fluff, not in the Chaos Space Marine Codex, even though it might be the more economically convenient place for people who'd rather only by the CSM-Dex. The Elysian Rules are published in the IA3 book along with the appropriate fluff, not in the (brand new) Tau Codex or Imperial Guard Codex.

And, frankly, a "normal" game that depends on the Iyanden rules while ignoring the Iyanden background would be anything but "normal". It'd be an atrocity.

 Peregrine wrote:


The important part is that it's a supplement soon after the codex is released. A supplement for C:SM would be fine, since it's almost certainly new material that couldn't have been in the codex even if GW wanted it to be. But when you have stuff like the Tau codex having minimal fluff and rules for Farsight because they're about to release a $50 Farsight book it really is something missing from the codex.

Well they have Farsight, what more did the last Tau codex have?

The Iyanden rules would have made no sense in the Eldar codex.

 Zweischneid wrote:
But why would you separate the rules from the fluff that goes with them? It's like asking GW to publish the rules for Orks in the Chaos Marines Codex? If the Iyanden fluff and the Iyanden missions are in the Iyanden book, why would you separate the rules to a different book?

That's a ridiculous comparison. Remember that we're talking about "brilliant minimalist design" where Iyanden are Eldar with just a few minor changes? Putting those changes in the Eldar codex as another option makes perfect sense.

And, frankly, a "normal" game that depends on the Iyanden rules while ignoring the Iyanden background would be anything but "normal". It'd be an atrocity.

And guess what: not everyone plays the game like you. I'm glad that you love fluff, but some of us have to deal with things like someone using the Iyanden supplement rules because their Wave Serpent/flamer Wraithguard spam list (built because it wins tournaments, not because it's fluffy) really likes it when the Wraithguard get to shoot and run.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 shamikebab wrote:
Well they have Farsight, what more did the last Tau codex have?

The previous codex didn't have much more (except some "fluffy" rules that most people hated), but a new codex should expand the army, not just copy/paste the same old content from the previous codices. Farsight is really popular fluff-wise with Tau players (far more than any of the other characters) and the lack of new material in the codex felt like a really sad missed opportunity. Except now we know that it was a deliberate choice to sell a $50 Farsight book.

Should it? If each codex expanded on the previous then they would eventually become overly complicated.

They could do more fluff but then I think that about every codex.

You were talking about missing rules though. What missing Farsight rules were there from the Tau codex?