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"Farsight - Tau supplement" - released, discussion starts pg 8, new rumours on pg. 22  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




West Midlands (UK)

 Peregrine wrote:


And guess what: not everyone plays the game like you. I'm glad that you love fluff, but some of us have to deal with things like someone using the Iyanden supplement rules because their Wave Serpent/flamer Wraithguard spam list (built because it wins tournaments, not because it's fluffy) really likes it when the Wraithguard get to shoot and run.



If they do, most tournaments will require them to bring the Iyanden book along for you to look at.

Again, I do understand where you coming from, even if I don't agree.

It's a question of proportionality, not principle. The "need-to-see-all-rules-before-the-tournament" are small sub-group of tournament-players, who in turn are only a sub-group of all 40K players. That this small group (to which you apparently belong, and I apparently don't) should hold the entire 40K publishing process hostage in the way you would prefer is simply far, far, far, far beyond any reasonable commensurability.

There are other "sub-groups" in the hobby, some with gaming-preferences diametrically opposite to the "style" you prefer, and you wouldn't be happy having their style imposed on you either.

The "everyone-brings-the-rules-for-their-own-army-to-a-tournament-so-the-opponent-can-look" is a good solution that has worked well for decades. It has worked for you too in past tournaments, I am sure.

   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 shamikebab wrote:
Should it? If each codex expanded on the previous then they would eventually become overly complicated.


Sure, if you keep doing it forever. But don't forget that the Tau had a 4th edition codex that was criticized for being too limited (especially once terrible internal balance made most of the units unplayable). There was a lot of room to expand, but other than the mandatory-for-6th (pointless and unfluffy) flyers and (pointless and unfluffy) large-base MC there wasn't very much expansion.

You were talking about missing rules though. What missing Farsight rules were there from the Tau codex?


I don't know what GW had in mind. People were hoping that Farsight would make crisis suits troops (with Shadowsun doing the same with stealth suits), but who knows if GW will do it. But whatever the rules end up being I don't think they're going to be anything that couldn't have gone in the codex.

 Zweischneid wrote:
That this small group (to which you apparently belong, and I apparently don't) should hold the entire 40K publishing process hostage in the way you would prefer is simply far, far, far, far beyond any reasonable commensurability.


Where's the hostage-holding? If all the rules are in the codex where they should be (with supplements doing fluff, not standard-game rules) everyone wins. The only loss is the ability to sell an extra $50 book as day-one DLC.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




West Midlands (UK)

 Peregrine wrote:


Where's the hostage-holding? If all the rules are in the codex where they should be (with supplements doing fluff, not standard-game rules) everyone wins. The only loss is the ability to sell an extra $50 book as day-one DLC.


Quite the opposite. I'd consider it immensely unethical if the Iyanden rules were in the Eldar Codex with a sticky note saying "the missions and background these rules are meant to be used with will come in a different book". THAT would be unethical commercial behaviour.

There is a reason we have "Codexes" in the first place, and not all rules in the BRB. Because the fluff is in the Codexes!!!! Because Warhammer 40K is not Risk and the fluff is what drives the ship.

There is nothing lost by publishing rules wherever and whenever the background these rules are meant to emulate are happened to be published. Hell, I wish each Black Library book would come with a little rules-appendix for one or two things happening in the book.

If you they become relevant in a tourny, people will have to bring them along. Everyone wins.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/07/04 09:47:06


   
Made in ca
Renegade Inquisitor with a Bound Daemon





Tied and gagged in the back of your car

 Zweischneid wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:


Where's the hostage-holding? If all the rules are in the codex where they should be (with supplements doing fluff, not standard-game rules) everyone wins. The only loss is the ability to sell an extra $50 book as day-one DLC.


Quite the opposite. I'd consider it immensely unethical if the Iyanden rules were in the Eldar Codex with a sticky note saying "the missions and background these rules are meant to be used with will come in a different book". THAT would be unethical commercial behaviour.


It's as if you intentionally find the most absent minded and difficult ways to do things.

Take the Iyanden rules, put them in the codex, make them fit with the rest of the book. There's no reason to put a note alluding to a specific expansion book. The basic introductory Iyanden fluff is already in the codex.

There is a reason we have "Codexes" in the first place, and not all rules in the BRB. Because the fluff is in the Codexes!!!! Because Warhammer 40K is not Risk and the fluff is what drives the ship.


If "fluff is what drives the ship," then that would be a perfect excuse to keep it entirely separate from the rules, and to sell it on its own merits.

Of course, if "the fluff is what drives the ship," then it must be a sign of considerable unease with how that ship is being run if the fluff ends up being hilariously and horribly retconned at every possible opportunity.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/04 10:00:11


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




West Midlands (UK)

 Fafnir wrote:


If "fluff is what drives the ship," then that would be a perfect excuse to keep it entirely separate from the rules, and to sell it on its own merits.

Of course, if "the fluff is what drives the ship," then it must be a sign of considerable unease with how that ship is being run if the fluff ends up being hilariously and horribly retconned at every possible opportunity.


Not any more than it must be a sign of considerable unease with how that ship is being run if the rules are constantly retconned every 4 years or so, assuming the rules are what drives the ship.

   
Made in fr
Swift Swooping Hawk






 Fafnir wrote:

Take the Iyanden rules, put them in the codex, make them fit with the rest of the book. There's no reason to put a note alluding to a specific expansion book. The basic introductory Iyanden fluff is already in the codex.


So should all Space Marines be in one rule book? How about having Eldar and Dark Eldar in the same book? I don't recall anyone saying rules were left out of the Space Marine codex when Blood Angels got a codex.
   
Made in ca
Renegade Inquisitor with a Bound Daemon





Tied and gagged in the back of your car

Zweischneid wrote:
 Fafnir wrote:


If "fluff is what drives the ship," then that would be a perfect excuse to keep it entirely separate from the rules, and to sell it on its own merits.

Of course, if "the fluff is what drives the ship," then it must be a sign of considerable unease with how that ship is being run if the fluff ends up being hilariously and horribly retconned at every possible opportunity.


Not any more than it must be a sign of considerable unease with how that ship is being run if the rules are constantly retconned every 4 years or so, assuming the rules are what drives the ship.


Well, the rules clearly don't run the ship, because they're garbage.

By GW's own admission, they're in it for the models.

shamikebab wrote:
 Fafnir wrote:

Take the Iyanden rules, put them in the codex, make them fit with the rest of the book. There's no reason to put a note alluding to a specific expansion book. The basic introductory Iyanden fluff is already in the codex.


So should all Space Marines be in one rule book?


Actually, most of them should actually be consolidated into one book. Not much of value would be lost.

How about having Eldar and Dark Eldar in the same book?


Straw men are something everyone can appreciate, really.

I don't recall anyone saying rules were left out of the Space Marine codex when Blood Angels got a codex.


Consider the release windows of the armies in this example. Then consider just how stupid this comparison is.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/07/04 10:16:16


 
   
Made in gb
Ork-Hunting Inquisitorial Xenokiller





 Zweischneid wrote:
Not any more than it must be a sign of considerable unease with how that ship is being run if the rules are constantly retconned every 4 years or so, assuming the rules are what drives the ship.

What? A rules update is a bad thing? Making progress (Debatable I guess) is bad? Considering this is a game, if it had no rules, or basic foundation of how to play, it wouldn't be a game. I'd say rules are driving the ship.
Edit; also, this seems to be going a bit OT, perhaps make another thread for this discussion?
OP; Sounds good. I place my money on the Farsight book being next month or the month after.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/07/04 10:17:31


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




West Midlands (UK)

 Fafnir wrote:


Well, the rules clearly don't run the ship, because they're garbage.

By GW's own admission, they're in it for the models.


If the rules are garbage, and explicitly not the focus of the company, why are you so obsessed with having "all the rules" (and GW releasing rules in a way that makes it easy for you to "get them all").

At the very least, you should probably be obsessed with having "all the models", if you need to have some form of "must-have-it-all" obsession at all and the models are, by GW's own admission, the core of the whole thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
blood lance wrote:

What? A rules update is a bad thing? Making progress (Debatable I guess) is bad?


I don't think a rules update is a bad thing, just like I don't think a fluff update is a bad thing. Quite the opposite. Lazy copy-&-paste Codexes that don't add anything new (e.g. the 6th Edition Eldar or Daemons Codex) are probably the ones GW shouldn't have updated. The books that actually do something new and creative with the fluff (Necrons, Iyanden) are the ones that are the most enjoyable to read.

blood lance wrote:

Considering this is a game, if it had no rules, or basic foundation of how to play, it wouldn't be a game. I'd say rules are driving the ship.


Well, I'd argue that for people looking for good rules, there are millions of alternative games out there with far better rules, far lower entry-costs, a far better organized tournament-circus, often with far higher prize-money, etc... . If that is your priority, why are you playing 40K?


This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/07/04 10:25:08


   
Made in ca
Renegade Inquisitor with a Bound Daemon





Tied and gagged in the back of your car

I don't play GW games anymore, but that doesn't mean I want to not play GW games anymore.

GW splitting their rules into supplements in order to push people to buy even more ridiculously overpriced books is only serving to make it ever more difficult to see a point where I could consider coming back to play GW's games. It's a move in a direction that is bad for gamers.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




West Midlands (UK)

 Fafnir wrote:
I don't play GW games anymore, but that doesn't mean I want to not play GW games anymore.


But why do you want to play 40K?

If Games Workshop were to publish a "rules-only" edition with only the rules, and 20 fluff-free army lists (red army, blue army, fast army, horde army, floaty army), all as a free pdf and to be used with US$ 0.01 coloured plastic counters, would you jump back in?

What's the appeal of 40K without the fluff (and the models that originate from the fluff)?

What exactly is in the 40K rules (!) that makes it worth spending hundreds, if not thousands of dollars, if you could instead just pick up a US$ 10,- Chess Set or a used box of Risk or Monopoly on eBay and play "competitively" with some of the best players in the world for many ten-thousands of dollars (or hundred-thousands for chess) of prize money?

This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2013/07/04 10:43:10


   
Made in fr
Swift Swooping Hawk






I think the problem is people seem to be under the impression that these supplementary codices are compulsory. Codex Eldar and Codex Tau are complete codices, just as Codex Space Marines is a complete codex. You don't need Iyanden to play Eldar (You don't even need Iyanden to play a fluffy Iyanden list!) It's just an optional extra for fans that want to read more fluff of that craftowlrd/chapter/sect, a few missions and some items and rule modifiers for flavor.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




West Midlands (UK)

 shamikebab wrote:
I think the problem is people seem to be under the impression that these supplementary codices are compulsory. Codex Eldar and Codex Tau are complete codices, just as Codex Space Marines is a complete codex. You don't need Iyanden to play Eldar (You don't even need Iyanden to play a fluffy Iyanden list!) It's just an optional extra for fans that want to read more fluff of that craftowlrd/chapter/sect, a few missions and some items and rule modifiers for flavor.


Well, the argument was that some people on this forum felt it was compulsory to buy the Iyanden Supplement (and the Eldar Codex) despite not even playing Iyanden or Eldar at all.

Is the Iyanden book compulsory to play an Iyanden army? I think not, but it's a different argument.

The ludicrous argument was that some people feel GW somehow "forces" them to buy Iyanden, even though they (competitively) play, say, Chaos Space Marines.

   
Made in au
Hacking Proxy Mk.1





Australia

 Zweischneid wrote:
 Fafnir wrote:
I don't play GW games anymore, but that doesn't mean I want to not play GW games anymore.


But why do you want to play 40K?

If Games Workshop were to publish a "rules-only" edition with only the rules, and 20 fluff-free army lists (red army, blue army, fast army, horde army, floaty army), all as a free pdf and to be used with US$ 0.01 coloured plastic counters, would you jump back in?

What's the appeal of 40K without the fluff (and the models that originate from the fluff)?

What exactly is in the 40K rules (!) that makes it worth spending hundreds, if not thousands of dollars, if you could instead just pick up a US$ 10,- Chess Set or a used box of Risk or Monopoly on eBay and play "competitively" with some of the best players in the world for many ten-thousands of dollars (or hundred-thousands for chess) of prize money?


I'm sorry but that looks like a blatant strawman argument to me.
Yes fluff is important, I don't think anyone here has argued that they should release books without fluff.

The point Fafnir was trying to make (and you seem to have tried to ignore) is that GW have turned 40k into something he no longer wants to play. I am in the exact same boat here, I like the 40k fluff, the game was my first real wargame and I want to like it, but with the way GW are treating it I can't get excited about it.

That isn't going to change any time soon if GW keep doing things like releasing these codex supplements. In Australia they are charging $124 for the rulebook, $84 for a codex and now $84 for a codex supplement. I am not getting back into any game that costs me $293 in rules alone. If they simply added most of the Iyanden fluff and all 2 pages of rules to the Eldar codex then it might actually justify the price of it to begin with but all I see looking at this is GW trying to squeeze more money out of people for rulebooks despite repeatedly claiming to be a model company, not a rules company whenever someone pointed out the rules are not as good as other games on the market.

Also everyone saying you don't NEED that book is right. You don't need the Iyanden book to play a Iyanden army. But what happens then the new Marine codex comes out and you can no longer take bikes as a troop choice without the White Scars supplement? Then you DO need it.

 Fafnir wrote:
Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
 
   
Made in fr
Swift Swooping Hawk






Well now you're just guessing, Codex Eldar let's you take Wraithguard as troops without having to buy Codex Iyanden, so surely there is as much chance that Codex Space Marines will let you take bikes as troops?
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




West Midlands (UK)

 jonolikespie wrote:


The point Fafnir was trying to make (and you seem to have tried to ignore) is that GW have turned 40k into something he no longer wants to play. I am in the exact same boat here, I like the 40k fluff, the game was my first real wargame and I want to like it, but with the way GW are treating it I can't get excited about it.


Well, the point I keep hearing is that the way they would like (!) GW to go about make 40K again a game they "want to play", is to draw a more stringent separation between the "rules-publications" and the "fluff-publications". So it is not a straw-man argument, unless you have some credible argument on why anyone would want those rules by themselves, separate from the fluff, which would presumably depend on some quality that is intrinsic to the rules themselves, and not the fluff. I fail to see this quality in the 40K rules, hence why I am asking you (and others).

For a game build around fluff, it would seem counter-productive and unnecessarily obfuscate to separate the two. If the fluff is important to you, as you claim, you'd see the ludicrousness of trying to separate out the game rules from the fluff for a game that thrives on the appeal of its fluff (and not on the appeal of its sleek game-rules independent/separate of its fluff).

I am not saying GW doesn't do (a lot of) things wrong, or that their prices couldn't be different. But if they release some 50 pages of Iyanden fluff, than that is the place the Iyanden rules should be too!!

If they don't release more in-depth Iyanden fluff, there'd be no point to have more in-depth Iyanden rules in the first place. Not even in the Eldar Codex. They'd just be rules without a purpose.

 jonolikespie wrote:


Also everyone saying you don't NEED that book is right. You don't need the Iyanden book to play a Iyanden army. But what happens then the new Marine codex comes out and you can no longer take bikes as a troop choice without the White Scars supplement? Then you DO need it.


If that will be the case with a White Scars supplement, I'll be with you on that point.

At this point in time, I see GW moving into the opposite direction, away from things like Death from the Skies (which was fully guilty of your complaints) and towards things like the Iyanden Book, which explicitly has only optional, mission-inspired "flavour" rules that are not needed to play Iyanden, while leaving all the "essential" Iyanden stuff (Yriel, Wraithguard troops, etc..) in the main Eldar book.


This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2013/07/04 11:38:49


   
Made in fi
Jervis Johnson






At this point in time, I see GW moving into the opposite direction

Look, this hobby (GW gaming) is absolutely stacked full of conflicting wants and needs. Some want a tournament game, some want a beer & pretzels game. Some want huge models, some want rank and file maneouvring. Some want player involved skill like guessing distances, some want things to be as automatic as possible. Some like random 'cinematic' events, some like everything to be as predictable as possible.

Clearly, some people like Apocalypse, since GW thinks that's where the money is at. I, as a 22 year veteran of playing GW games, think that Apocalypse is a laughable, travesty of a game. I also think allies and fortifications were an idiotic thing to add to 40K, and once they do the same to Warhammer Fantasy they will deliver the killing blow to that game and any competitive circuit it used to have. However, clearly, some people disagree with me, since they think beer & pretzels games where every toy from your bitz box can play for your army is cool and where some spell from a dusty tome removes entire table pieces without anyone being able to counter. HAHA look I killed three dozens of your models with my automatically hitting super duper stratagem cards! HAHA! Yeah, I'm not laughing, but sure enough hundreds of people disagree with me.

Likewise, some people don't have a problem with the way GW prices things. None at all. They look at the costs of other hobbies available to them and consider GW gaming rather cheap. Some people don't agree and have left the hobby because of the pricing.

In the big picture of things what difference do you think it makes whether you agree with Codex: Iyanden or Farsight Enclave or not? GW decides it wants to add 1 paragraph of rules in a 50 dollar book then that's what GW will do. There are people this won't affect at all, people who are fine with this, and people who dislike it, but it'll be just like the thousand other things wrong and right in this hobby. Is it a big deal in this mess? I doubt it.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/07/04 12:15:32


 
   
Made in nl
[MOD]
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Cozy cockpit of an Archer ARC-5S

BL just put this on-line:




Fatum Iustum Stultorum



Fiat justitia ruat caelum

 
   
Made in us
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre




Missouri

That looks kinda cool. Not liking how this looks like a "digital only" release, though, because this is a release I would have actually been interested in picking up as a physical book. I'm not buying a fething iPad for this.

 Desubot wrote:
Why isnt Slut Wars: The Sexpocalypse a real game dammit.


"It's easier to change the rules than to get good at the game." 
   
Made in us
Mounted Kroot Tracker







I'm looking forward to this release, if the fluff is as extensive as the Iyanden supplement it will be a good read. There is so much left-to-the-imagination stuff about Farsight that he's one of the more interesting variances in an otherwise controlled Tau empire. I'm also interested in seeing whether there will be any new models/units that accompany the release, or whether it will be just new rules to add to the existing Tau codex. I am hoping for new units, because I have had my fingers crossed for a Codex: Kroot for several years now, and I could only see it happening if precedence is set for new unit entries in a codex supplement. Iyanden didn't have this, when it could have been easy to add an Iyanna or Wraithseer unit entry and model with the codex release, so I don't feel too optimistic that these codex supplements will be used to introduce new sculpts.

   
Made in us
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre




Missouri

There are some cool things they could do for this release, but likely won't. They released Farsight and direct-only shoulderpads in Finecast with the Tau release and I expect that's all we'll get.

They won't release a new battlesuit kit, because I doubt even GW is willing to risk pissing people off that much. Tau players were waiting years for a Tau update in hopes it would also mean a redesigned crisis suit kit to go with it, instead we got a repack of the old, gakky suits. Imagine how much rage there will be if a mere two months after the fact the "real" kit comes out and the repack was just an obvious attempt to reduce stock before putting the new one out there. Then again maybe they don't care and they just assume new and old players alike will flock to stores (their stores, no others, of course) to buy the new kit even if they haven't finished assembling the ones they bought weeks ago. In any case I doubt we'll see new kits or characters anyway since none of that came out with the Iyanden supplement.

The best anyone can hope for is more Finecast conversion bits, maybe alternate heads, shields, or things like shoulder pads/armor for the existing crisis suit kit to convert Farsight's bodyguards or just generic Enclave suits with. Farsight is supposed to be using an older mark of battlesuit with customized armor and other enhancements from his own engineers so it would be kinda cool if you could convert other suits up to sort of match him.

 Desubot wrote:
Why isnt Slut Wars: The Sexpocalypse a real game dammit.


"It's easier to change the rules than to get good at the game." 
   
Made in us
Fireknife Shas'el






This may be a bit stupid of a question, but... why would you pre-order an e-book? Are you worried they are going to run out of internets?

I'm expecting an Imperial Knights supplement dedicated to GW's loyalist apologetics. Codex: White Knights "In the grim dark future, everything is fine."

"The argument is that we have to do this or we will, bit by bit,
lose everything that we hold dear, everything that keeps the business going. Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky."
-Tom Kirby 
   
Made in us
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre




Missouri

Considering how GW has been lately I wouldn't be surprised if they somehow "ran out" of downloads and there was a 4-6 week wait to get more.

 Desubot wrote:
Why isnt Slut Wars: The Sexpocalypse a real game dammit.


"It's easier to change the rules than to get good at the game." 
   
Made in us
Fireknife Shas'el






They will only run out of the limited collectors edition digital codex. It's the same book, but with different cover art and a modified price to reflect such quality.

I'm expecting an Imperial Knights supplement dedicated to GW's loyalist apologetics. Codex: White Knights "In the grim dark future, everything is fine."

"The argument is that we have to do this or we will, bit by bit,
lose everything that we hold dear, everything that keeps the business going. Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky."
-Tom Kirby 
   
Made in ca
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife





Toronto, Canada

Well at least we have some concrete information now, was getting sick of reading the debate on whether or not codex supplements touch us inappropriately.

   
Made in us
Pile of Necron Spare Parts




Hamunaptron

Have we been able to confirm if this will have no physical release? That seems like that would be a huge mistake. If I'm forced to buy an iPad in order to have access to 40k material, I honestly will sell my entire collection and never touch GW again.

Necrons - 3500 pts.
Tau - 4500 pts.
Ultramarines - 2500 pts.
Tyranids - 3000 pts.
WoC - 2000 pts. 
   
Made in gb
Major




London

 Amun-Rom wrote:
Have we been able to confirm if this will have no physical release? That seems like that would be a huge mistake. If I'm forced to buy an iPad in order to have access to 40k material, I honestly will sell my entire collection and never touch GW again.


I highly doubt that you will. Hyperbole through and through.
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





Florida

 Savageconvoy wrote:
This may be a bit stupid of a question, but... why would you pre-order an e-book? Are you worried they are going to run out of internets?


Exalted. But then again this is GW we are talking about.

SickSix's Silver Skull WIP thread
My Youtube Channel
JSF wrote:... this is really quite an audacious move by GW, throwing out any pretext that this is a game and that its customers exist to do anything other than buy their overpriced products for the sake of it. The naked arrogance, greed and contempt for their audience is shocking.
= Epic First Post.
 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control




Bristol, UK

That always makes me smile. Adding '...but then again, this is GW' to justify anything you like never gets old!

If you can keep your head, while all about you are losing their's, then you have probably completely misunderstood the situation!

6,000pts
5,500pts
3,500pts
2,500pts 
   
Made in nl
Confessor Of Sins






Well, they may believe this Interweb thing is a passing fad, so keeping it limited ensures they won't be left with unsellable digital codexes!

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