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Quark wrote:


Only if you like ignoring the "Unique" rule for Special Characters.

I am not.

But if the Commander Team replaces (by TiamatRoar's argument) ONLY the bodyguard, but not Farsight himself, why than is Farsight on the list of characters that make the Commander Team.

Moreover, if the Commander Team itself doesn't take a FoC-slot, and Farsight is a part of the Commander Team, can you now use Farsight without taking a FoC-slot?

 Zweischneid wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:
"If you choose to use this unit" means IF you CHOOSE to use the SPECIAL COMMANDER team, doesn't it? That would mean you can CHOOSE whether to use Farsight with the normal bodyguards OR Farsight with the commander team.

"When choosing a Farsight Enclaves army, you have access to a special UNIT called Farsight’s Commander Team. IF you CHOOSE to take this UNIT"


As you can see, UNIT in this case clearly refers to "Farsight's COMMANDER TEAM", not Farsight himself. You can CHOOSE whether to use Farsight's COMANNDER TEAM or Farsight's normal team.

Perhaps. But the UNIT - as you so eloquently caps-lock it - is made up of up to 7 Crisis Suits selected from a list of 8 available. That list, in turn, includes Farsight himself.

So by that logic, if the Commander Team does not include Farsight himself, I could take Farsight and (!) take the the Commander Team UNIT, which may also include Farsight, giving me two Farsights?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

valace2 wrote:


Shadowsun... I am a big fan of hers, by using an allied standard Tau force you should be able to include her. maybe...

According to the current wording of the Divergent Destiny rules you cannot not include Shadowsun.

Double negative for the win

Just noticed the cannot not take Aun Va or Shadowsun. Thats kind of funny. This book is a mess.

Would still assume that you could take Shadowsun as part of an allied detachment.

I would take Shadowsun and a support commander in my primary detachment combine them with a 3x plasma crisis team and the Riptide from an allied Enclave attachment. Yes you lose the T6 from the Riptide and drones, but he is a super wound soaker a 2+ 3+(he should get the 3+ save off from the nova reactor thanks to that sig system he has. Have Shadowsun be the warlord to get the mess shrounding and 3d6 jump move. Its pretty sick.

Shadowsun 135pts
Commander w/ MSS, PC, C&C Node, VRT, Drone Controller, 2x Gun Drones, 172pts

O'Vesa 305pts

3x Crisis team 286pts
Shas'vre w/ Talisman, Plasma Gun, and 2x Gun Drones (one converted to a warscaper drone)
2x Shas'ui w/ 2x Plasma Guns, Target Lock, and 2x Gun Drones

Comes out to 898pts

Sounds like a lot of fun You still need fillers to get it up to 1500 or 1850. You have to get the Enclave attachment another HQ maybe a Fireblade. Add in another crisis team for more scoring.

For the Primary attachment add in Firewarriors and maybe another Riptide and some Missilesides.

Would still assume that you could take Shadowsun as part of an allied detachment.

A Farsight Enclaves army cannot not include Aun’Va or Commander Shadowsun.

The intent is if the Farisght Enclave is the primary then you cannot take Aun'va or Shadowsun. Tau Regular Army would have to be the primary.

 thejughead wrote:

Would still assume that you could take Shadowsun as part of an allied detachment.

A Farsight Enclaves army cannot not include Aun’Va or Commander Shadowsun.

The intent is if the Farisght Enclave is the primary then you cannot take Aun'va or Shadowsun. Tau Regular Army would have to be the primary.

Sorry I see what you mean, with the unit I posted above the standard Tau force would be the primary, has to to get the support commander and Shadowsun. Unless I missed something that says an Enclave force has to be the primary this should work.

But it says army, not detachment. So then the question: is an army w/ Farsight allies a "Farsight Enclave army"?

Man, but the wording is terrible. If they meant detachment they should have said detachment. If they meant army they should have said "army with a Farsight Enclave detachment."

Speaking of which, both Iyanden and Farsight say one supplement per army, so it looks like no mixing the two.

Quark wrote:
But it says army, not detachment. So then the question: is an army w/ Farsight allies a "Farsight Enclave army"?

Man, but the wording is terrible. If they meant detachment they should have said detachment. If they meant army they should have said "army with a Farsight Enclave detachment."

Speaking of which, both Iyanden and Farsight say one supplement per army, so it looks like no mixing the two.

Well until they do, I am taking it to mean no Shadowsun within the Enclave detachment, not the entire army .

valace2 wrote:

Quark wrote:
But it says army, not detachment. So then the question: is an army w/ Farsight allies a "Farsight Enclave army"?

Man, but the wording is terrible. If they meant detachment they should have said detachment. If they meant army they should have said "army with a Farsight Enclave detachment."

Speaking of which, both Iyanden and Farsight say one supplement per army, so it looks like no mixing the two.

Well until they do, I am taking it to mean no Shadowsun within the Enclave detachment, not the entire army .

The definition is on page 110. Primary detachment, allied detachment and army all mean different things. In fact, your own words above say it as well, army is army, detachment is detachment.

You also lose the right to take tau signature systems armywide.

 davou wrote:

valace2 wrote:

Quark wrote:
But it says army, not detachment. So then the question: is an army w/ Farsight allies a "Farsight Enclave army"?

Man, but the wording is terrible. If they meant detachment they should have said detachment. If they meant army they should have said "army with a Farsight Enclave detachment."

Speaking of which, both Iyanden and Farsight say one supplement per army, so it looks like no mixing the two.

Well until they do, I am taking it to mean no Shadowsun within the Enclave detachment, not the entire army .

The definition is on page 110. Primary detachment, allied detachment and army all mean different things. In fact, your own words above say it as well, army is army, detachment is detachment.

You also lose the right to take tau signature systems armywide.

Ummm, I looked at that page and nowhere does it say anything of the kind. If you have a primary detachment it follows the rules for that detachment, and an allied detachment follows the rules for that detachment. Its a PIA I admit, but each force follows its own rules.

Why would they allow you to field a standard Tau force alongside an Enclave force to begin with if the Enclave rules superceded those found in Codex: Tau Empire. They specifically listed them as Battle Brothers.

It really is a horribly worded mess, because as it stands you can mishmash the two forces together, Shadowsun can still be taken, and the 8 can be taken without Farsight, its a good thing the remembered to include the word unique in their profiles or you could just load up on them.

Ummm, I looked at that page and nowhere does it say anything of the kind. If you have a primary detachment it follows the rules for that detachment, and an allied detachment follows the rules for that detachment. Its a PIA I admit, but each force follows its own rules.

Here is the exact quote out of the book;

In this case, your Warlord can be from either of the primary detachments in your army.

That means that army encapsulates the detachments. One army, multiple detachments within that army

 davou wrote:

Ummm, I looked at that page and nowhere does it say anything of the kind. If you have a primary detachment it follows the rules for that detachment, and an allied detachment follows the rules for that detachment. Its a PIA I admit, but each force follows its own rules.

Here is the exact quote out of the book;

In this case, your Warlord can be from either of the primary detachments in your army.

That means that army encapsulates the detachments. One army, multiple detachments within that army

that quote is referring to multiple primary detachments in a 2000+ pt double FOC game. Not defining a primary and allied detachment.

Honestly, Farsight Enclave as an ally is pretty good for a Shadowsun/Stealth themed army. For less of a surcharge than going with bodyguards (50 for a minimal Ethereal + 1pt per crisis suit vs. 10 points per suit for bodyguards), you get crisis suits in your army, with the unneeded addition of scoring plus you also can now take an extra squad of stealth suits with the extra elite slot, never mind the extra HS & FA slots. Even assuming that you can't take Shadowsun herself, just playing her as a commander with 2 fusion blasters & a target lock is not that bad an option (slightly less good for many less points) and would allow for the combo.

valace2 wrote:

 davou wrote:

Ummm, I looked at that page and nowhere does it say anything of the kind. If you have a primary detachment it follows the rules for that detachment, and an allied detachment follows the rules for that detachment. Its a PIA I admit, but each force follows its own rules.

Here is the exact quote out of the book;

In this case, your Warlord can be from either of the primary detachments in your army.

That means that army encapsulates the detachments. One army, multiple detachments within that army

that quote is referring to multiple primary detachments in a 2000+ pt double FOC game. Not defining a primary and allied detachment.

Indeed so, but it cleary spells out how the word army is used in the context of 40k, is there anywhere else this is defined?

 davou wrote:

valace2 wrote:

 davou wrote:

Ummm, I looked at that page and nowhere does it say anything of the kind. If you have a primary detachment it follows the rules for that detachment, and an allied detachment follows the rules for that detachment. Its a PIA I admit, but each force follows its own rules.

Here is the exact quote out of the book;

In this case, your Warlord can be from either of the primary detachments in your army.

That means that army encapsulates the detachments. One army, multiple detachments within that army

that quote is referring to multiple primary detachments in a 2000+ pt double FOC game. Not defining a primary and allied detachment.

Indeed so, but it cleary spells out how the word army is used in the context of 40k, is there anywhere else this is defined?

the word army is used in many places throughout the book, but I don't think that there is a single instance where it explains it the way you think it does. Only in newer codices are they beginning to explain the interaction between detachments, kind of like how they mention in the new Dark Angels codex that Belial and Azreal make deathwing troops only in a primary detachment. If you look at wolf guard in the space wolf codex, Logan makes them troops regardless of which detachment they are in, the same with Coteaz and Henchmen for Grey Knights.

Since there is no clear cut definition of "army" I am going off of the wording in the supplement that says Codex: Tau Empire forces can be taken as Battle Brothers. Again if the supplement rules supercede the base Codex rules there is no need for an allied force.

Not to interrupt, but just to be clear - there's no book version of this at all, it's purely digital?

 A Kvlt Ghost wrote:
Not to interrupt, but just to be clear - there's no book version of this at all, it's purely digital?

No real book on paper for 3 months...

So I can ally tau with tau and get 5 riptides (one being an IC) and crisis suits as troops? Sounds fair.

Question.

If I want to run my normal battlesuit list with standard codex rules, now that the supplement exists, can I dump my fire warriors and replace them with crisis suits as my troop choice, or is there some special "farsight" group I must bring in to utilize suits as a troop choice. I already use Farsight as my hq.

 Akaraut wrote:

 Marthike wrote:
I want this lol. But I dont really want a ipad version, prefer book, even though i have a ipad.

The ipad version is actually quite nice, tap on a special rule/wargear and you get a little pop-up giving you the stats on what it does ingame, as well as showing all related special rules to it. Bookmarks give you easy access to the pages that matter too.

Then again, it just isn't quite the same as holding that big old lump of dead tree in your hands

What annoys the piss out of me is that GW make a big deal about all these fancy "features" that only the super-awesome I-pish can give you, and as if to reinforce that they put out the most basic, no-effort, error-filled, copy-pasta EPub/Mobi file possible, when the reality is you can do everything that the I-pish version does in an EPub using Flash. What you can't do with an EPub is force people into a bogus EULA that redefines their one-time purchase of a product as a lease of indeterminate length, which can be revoked at any time at the discretion of either Apple or GW.

 Ravenous D wrote:
So I can ally tau with tau and get 5 riptides (one being an IC) and crisis suits as troops? Sounds fair.

Sounds fair to me - here's a list with the absolute minimums to do that

Farsight
O'vesa
Ethereal
Riptide x4, no upgrades
3x10 Kroot

1420

Now you have the points to basically buy some gun upgrades and more troops, then you're done. You may be able to get 5 riptides, but it'll be a pretty poorly balanced/expensive army to do so

anchorbine wrote:
Question.

If I want to run my normal battlesuit list with standard codex rules, now that the supplement exists, can I dump my fire warriors and replace them with crisis suits as my troop choice, or is there some special "farsight" group I must bring in to utilize suits as a troop choice. I already use Farsight as my hq.

You can do this, but you have to drop all of your signature systems and replace them with the ones from the supplement. You don't even have to use Farsight in an Enclave list. There are no restrictions outside of Aun Va and Shadowsun.

pantsonhead wrote:

 Morollan wrote:

I have to disagree. There is nothing in that paragraph that gives you permission to rake the Commander Team other than as a replacement for Farsight's bodyguard.

Can you expand on this? Like I said, maybe you could argue that you have no permission to take a Commander Team at all, but I can't see how to make those words mean that you can only take one if you have Farsight. It doesn't say that the Commander Team replaces the Bodyguard Team option for Farsight - it only says that if your list includes a Commander Team, then Farsight can't take a Bodyguard Team.

"When choosing a Farsight Enclaves army, you have access to a special unit called Farsight’s Commander Team." - This simply tell us that we have access to the unit but not how we have access to it.

"If you choose to take this unit, Commander Farsight does not allow you to take an XV8 Crisis Bodyguard Team as normal; he has the Commander Team instead." - This tells us how we have access to the unit, ie by replacing Farsight's usual bodyguards - note the specific reference to "he". And also the way it says "the" Commander Team, rather than "a", ie the one that you are allowed to take

"This special unit is an HQ choice that does not take up a Force Organisation slot and consists of up to seven other battlesuits chosen from the Eight etc, etc." - This tells us what the unit is. Also note the "other", which implies that it is in addition to Farsight himself, who is of course one of the Eight.

You are arguing that you don't have to take Farsight but we simply do not have permission to use the Commander Team in any other circumstance apart from as a replacement to Farsight's normal bodyguard team. It doesn't say "One Farsight Enclaves HQ choice may take a Commander Team in place of a Crisis Bodyguard" or anything else which tells us when we can take it. There is only one circumstance shown and in a permissive ruleset we need to be told specifically what circumstances the unit can be taken in.

Target wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
So I can ally tau with tau and get 5 riptides (one being an IC) and crisis suits as troops? Sounds fair.

Sounds fair to me - here's a list with the absolute minimums to do that

Farsight
O'vesa
Ethereal
Riptide x4, no upgrades
3x10 Kroot

1420

Now you have the points to basically buy some gun upgrades and more troops, then you're done. You may be able to get 5 riptides, but it'll be a pretty poorly balanced/expensive army to do so

Sounds cool but you need markerlights for this to work, The Riptides shooting can be unreliable.

valace2 wrote:

Target wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
So I can ally tau with tau and get 5 riptides (one being an IC) and crisis suits as troops? Sounds fair.

Sounds fair to me - here's a list with the absolute minimums to do that

Farsight
O'vesa
Ethereal
Riptide x4, no upgrades
3x10 Kroot

1420

Now you have the points to basically buy some gun upgrades and more troops, then you're done. You may be able to get 5 riptides, but it'll be a pretty poorly balanced/expensive army to do so

Sounds cool but you need markerlights for this to work, The Riptides shooting can be unreliable.

My point was more that while you CAN do this, it's not really that great. People are getting a little too "ERMAGERD 5 RIPTIDES LUL BROKEN" on certain aspects of this supplement, which just aren't going to play out that well once you build a list

@Target - you also need at least 1 unit of 3 Crisis suits as that is a requirement.

muwhe wrote:
@Target - you also need at least 1 unit of 3 Crisis suits as that is a requirement.

Good point - even less points available to bulk things out then!

Target wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
So I can ally tau with tau and get 5 riptides (one being an IC) and crisis suits as troops? Sounds fair.

Sounds fair to me - here's a list with the absolute minimums to do that

Farsight
O'vesa
Ethereal
Riptide x4, no upgrades
3x10 Kroot

1420

Now you have the points to basically buy some gun upgrades and more troops, then you're done. You may be able to get 5 riptides, but it'll be a pretty poorly balanced/expensive army to do so

Close

Farsight
O'vesa
Etheral
4xRiptides w/Ion Accelerator
2x10 Kroot
3 Crisis Suits w/2 Fusion Blasters

That's reasonable for the base required models and it's 1539. So you have just over 300pts to spend until you hit the 1850 standard.

***Edit*** Drat, Muhwe beat me to it

 Morollan wrote:

"When choosing a Farsight Enclaves army, you have access to a special unit called Farsight’s Commander Team." - This simply tell us that we have access to the unit but not how we have access to it.

"If you choose to take this unit, Commander Farsight does not allow you to take an XV8 Crisis Bodyguard Team as normal; he has the Commander Team instead." - This tells us how we have access to the unit, ie by replacing Farsight's usual bodyguards - note the specific reference to "he". And also the way it says "the" Commander Team, rather than "a", ie the one that you are allowed to take

"This special unit is an HQ choice that does not take up a Force Organisation slot and consists of up to seven other battlesuits chosen from the Eight etc, etc." - This tells us what the unit is. Also note the "other", which implies that it is in addition to Farsight himself, who is of course one of the Eight.

You are arguing that you don't have to take Farsight but we simply do not have permission to use the Commander Team in any other circumstance apart from as a replacement to Farsight's normal bodyguard team. It doesn't say "One Farsight Enclaves HQ choice may take a Commander Team in place of a Crisis Bodyguard" or anything else which tells us when we can take it. There is only one circumstance shown and in a permissive ruleset we need to be told specifically what circumstances the unit can be taken in.

But it's not saying that the Commander Team replaces the Crisis Bodyguard Team. "He has the Commander Team instead" is not equivalent to "Farsight's Commander Team can be taken in place of a Crisis Bodyguard Team for Commander Farsight". Note that it's even attached by a semicolon to a rule that seems to go the other way - you can choose to take the FCT, and then, if you do, Commander Farsight has fewer options. That other clause is explaining why Commander Farsight has fewer options - you're supposed to be using the Commander Team in something like the way you'd usually use the Bodyguard Team. There's absolutely no permission here to take the FCT with Farsight, specifically, so if there's no permission to take the FCT without Farsight then there's simply no permission to take the unit.

"Other" means "besides Farsight". They were just talking about Farsight, and The Eight includes Farsight but they don't want people including Farsight in this slot-less choice.

Basically, they've mixed rules and fluff (The Eight) and rules and justification ("he has the Commander Team instead") in ways that are pretty confusing, although this isn't surprising given the other confusion about what an "army" is and similar. It's sloppy, but I'm not seeing how you can justify limiting the FCT to armies that include Farsight.

By the way, what is the fluff reason for battlesuits being troops, or is this literally taken from that one point in the original codex?

The qualifier for when you can use the eight is if you choose a Farsight enclave army. Sheesh.

“When choosing a Farsight Enclaves army, you have access to a special unit called Farsight’s Commander Team.”

Excerpt From: Workshop, Games. “Farsight Enclaves – A Codex: Tau Empire Supplement.” v1.1. Games Workshop, 2013.

Just be sure everyone is swamping the GW FAQ email with these questions. I sent them in myself already as we'll.