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To lazy to find my book but when you gate doesn't the libby have to be with the until and so you cant do your jet pack move also you have to start them on table cause libby doesn't have a jump pack or am i totally wrong on this

Teschio wrote:

AnonAmbientLight wrote:
The problem with a farsight bomb in general is:

1) Putting all your eggs in one basket.
2) Having such a huge foot print can cause problems.
3) Barrage sniping and pie templates.
4) Having such a large unit means that unit can only be one place at a time.
5) relying on 2d6 to hopefully save your units.

I'd keep all that in mind before you spend the money on something like this.

If money isn't an option, and you're looking to play an aggressive style of Tau, go for it.

And last it was discussed, there was an iffy debate on the GoI getting the "Through Boldness, Victory" warlord trait. It gets really weird when you consider how it plays out if the trait doesn't exist and the wording is unsatisfying.

1) a basket that annihilates anything and doesn't die...
2) which ones?
3) 2+ cover save vs Barrage sniping , which means one hit every 18 can kill that suit. And after 1-2 turns, there won't be any more Barrage weapons around.
4) depends on the table, but with 24" movement you can have more than one place to go... worst case scenario, deploy it in open field, you still have 4+ cover save.
5) not really, sometimes i don't even JSJ. If i deep-strike in an Area Terrain, i generally don't move in the Assault phase to avoid making another Dangerous Terrain test.

As for GoI, the wording is quite clear, it follows the rules for Deep-Strike. Farsight's trait gets applied to all deep-strikes, non just the ones coming from Reserve (because it's not specifically written). Therefore, you never scatter. I really don't see where the debate comes from, negating GoI is a deep-strike is just a biased interpretation by people who fear this list.

We've been over this before. You refuse to take any sort of critique of your list.

To save myself the trouble of another pointless back and forth, you exult all of the benefits of this build and none of the inherent flaws and counters that other army's posses. That's like me coming in telling you Charizard is the best pokemon ever, and then ignoring the part about it's weakness to water. If it can just TAKE out that water pokemon first, it'll win. That's your argument.

As for the wording of GoI, there is a problem. If the rule is to be followed without farsight (what, farsight can't be killed?) it turns into a different beast. If you have a mishap with the scatter, without farsight, then your unit becomes placed back in reserves. Suggesting that when it's removed in the first place, it's put in to reserves in order to be deep struck. If that's the case, then interceptor would work on them, as far as RAW interceptor is worded.

So the units, depending on who is with them and the will of the dice gods, makes it behave very differently. Which means this tactic should be FAQd for clarification and you should consult players if you plan to use this. This would give you the excuse to use the warlord trait, "Through Boldness, Victory", though if it is a true deep strike. If you don't agree to this interpretation, then it's not a deep strike(its just using the scatter rules ONLY), and you can't use that warlord trait.

I'd rather inform the people here that might spend actual money on something that may not be the cat's meow you make it out to be.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bugaboo wrote:
To lazy to find my book but when you gate doesn't the libby have to be with the until and so you cant do your jet pack move also you have to start them on table cause libby doesn't have a jump pack or am i totally wrong on this

The idea is to place the troops at the edge of your deployment zone (12') and then use GoI (24') to cross the board. This basically puts you right on their front line. The lib does not have a jet pack(TEQ armor though), and so can not 2d6 in assault. So where ever he is placed after the GoI, he pretty much hangs out there, or runs in the assault phase. Although i do not know how running works with jet pack and non jet pack models in the same unit.

Teschio is betting that this unit will be able to kill anything that can threaten it that close, and still get a decent 2d6 roll to safety for everything else. If he gets a crappy 2d6 roll his units are stuck in the open with only a 4+ cover save at best, and 3+ armor saves on most everything in the rest of his deathstar. (his 10 drones have 4+ armor).

Teschio is also betting that the opponent doesn't have any pie weapons are any kind of serious firepower in a 1750pt match. Any that was a threat was removed turn one(according to him), because a smart commander bunches up all his units against a death squad army he knows is coming at him.

If you have a lib in your farsight bomb how can you use jet packs in the assault phase?

 cycom wrote:

Ultimately, this is a Deathstar and most of them are high-risk/high-reward lists. If they die quickly, you lose hard but if they can't stop you, you face-roll them. I've seen my DraigoWing Pallie DeathStar die to terrible placement and good LoS with Vindicators (embarrassing defeat that was).

Exactly, but Teschio here would have you believe that there is no risk at all.

The right list, and right terrain placement can easily break this bomb. I know with what kind of lists i make, and how i'd place units / terrain, his bomb would have serious trouble.

The only way i'd have any problem with this list, is if i did not know what he is bringing at all until the match officially started and he's rolling for movement phase 1.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rabbit82 wrote:
If you have a lib in your farsight bomb how can you use jet packs in the assault phase?

As long as they end in cohesion it's ok. You can do this with your sniper drones and drone controller. It's very troll worthy. He brings all the gun drones for extra stretching. They also serve as LOS fodder. He has bodyguards and they confer the USR sworn protector so everyone gets LOS free rolls. Keep in mind though, LoS only has a range of 6'.

Bugaboo wrote:To lazy to find my book but when you gate doesn't the libby have to be with the until and so you cant do your jet pack move also you have to start them on table cause libby doesn't have a jump pack or am i totally wrong on this

You will want to start on the table. It's one of the biggest advantages of taking a Libby, you don't rely on Reserve rolls and you are effective from turn one.

As for the JSJ movement, the Libby can't do it, but every other model can. Just place him on the far end of the unit in the drection you want to JSJ to, move every other model keeping him in coherency, and you can easily get a 6-7" movement.

AnonAmbientLight wrote:We've been over this before. You refuse to take any sort of critique of your list.

To save myself the trouble of another pointless back and forth, you exult all of the benefits of this build and none of the inherent flaws and counters that other army's posses. That's like me coming in telling you Charizard is the best pokemon ever, and then ignoring the part about it's weakness to water. If it can just TAKE out that water pokemon first, it'll win. That's your argument.

As for the wording of GoI, there is a problem. If the rule is to be followed without farsight (what, farsight can't be killed?) it turns into a different beast. If you have a mishap with the scatter, without farsight, then your unit becomes placed back in reserves. Suggesting that when it's removed in the first place, it's put in to reserves in order to be deep struck. If that's the case, then interceptor would work on them, as far as RAW interceptor is worded.

So the units, depending on who is with them and the will of the dice gods, makes it behave very differently. Which means this tactic should be FAQd for clarification and you should consult players if you plan to use this. This would give you the excuse to use the warlord trait, "Through Boldness, Victory", though if it is a true deep strike. If you don't agree to this interpretation, then it's not a deep strike(its just using the scatter rules ONLY), and you can't use that warlord trait.

I'd rather inform the people here that might spend actual money on something that may not be the cat's meow you make it out to be.

I would be much more open to accept your critiques if you had saw this list in action at least once. But you have not. I, on the other hand, have played it extensively, and i know of other people that used it. In about 100 games, between the ones i played myself and the ones played by people i heard of, this list lost 3-4 times. If THIS is not a proof that the list is strong, i don't know what is (just ot be clear: i am not talking about using it vs fluffy, friendly lists: i am talking about tournament games for the most part). You can say whatever you want on paper, but it still remains on paper. I talk from experience. Try it for a dozen of games (assuming you are able to use it, the list is hard to use), and THEN we can talk.

This list is not unbeatable, and it has some counters. But some of them are rarely seen on competitive lists, and some you can survive if you are smart. EVERY list has counters, what makes this one so strong is that they are few, and most of them you can deal with pretty easily (usually this means on turn 1). Most things that you consider counters, i have faced on the field, and they are a nuisance at best. But as i said, you have never played with or against this list, nor have you ever seen it played by others. Forgive me if i find your critiques to be meaningless, then.

Oh, btw: sure, if you scatter with GoI, the list becomes much weaker. But every tournament around here applies Farsight's trait to GoI movement (as it should be, since the wording is pretty clear). And it's absolutely impossible to lose Farsight unless you want to, since Sworn Protector allows you to automatically allocate wounds to other models. And as far as i know, there is nothing that bypases Look out Sir. This objection alone confirms that you have no idea how the list works...

Any battle reports you care to describe to us, if you have the time?

So, if it works just like I described, interceptor applies whenever they come in from the GoI. Since they are, in a sense coming in from reserves.

Barrage sniping?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/464253.page

Unless this was FAQd.

Remember, 6in range on the target model that needs an LoS. Are you sure you know how it works?

Nice argument by authority too. You really sold your case. As i pointed out LAST thread (if you recall), Tau is new. They have not really been seen in many major tournaments. There's a REALLY REALLY REALLY good chance the people you are playing just do not know what they are fighting, or how to fight it because of the new codex.

How can the realities and problems I've illustrated before, suddenly disappear on the battlefield? Are you a dice god? Do you know the secret of the roll? Does blowing on the dice help: Confirm / Deny?

As for the wording of GoI, there is a problem. If the rule is to be followed without farsight (what, farsight can't be killed?) it turns into a different beast. If you have a mishap with the scatter, without farsight, then your unit becomes placed back in reserves. Suggesting that when it's removed in the first place, it's put in to reserves in order to be deep struck. If that's the case, then interceptor would work on them, as far as RAW interceptor is worded.

Actually, I have a good question about this. If the GoI is counted as a per turn Deep-Striking of units, that means Interceptor would fire on me the instant I arrive. If I'm against a Corteaz Henchmen list with lots of plasma guns I'm about to have a terrible time I think (Unless the dice gods bless me with good saving rolls and curse my opponent with lots of To hits of 1).

Also, as a general question, if I fire a weapon under Interceptor during my opponents movement phase, I'm not allowed to fire that weapon during my shooting phase?

Barrage sniping?

Oh f**k, now that you mention that and I think of 6th ed wound allocation, this could be a serious pain if the dice gods be fickle that match.



I agree with you both really ^.^" This is a strong list but there are very strong counters to it. Particularly, a friend I play with very often runs 3 vindicators in his CSM list. Them pie plates are gonna give FarSight bomb lotsa trouble.

This list has merits too for an enemy unprepared or not used to such tactics though. Plus, it seems fun as hell. I highly doubt my ability to actually run this FarSight bomb list in my local tournaments though because some lists tend to be voted out of play (I know my Draigowing got voted off once because no one had an army to even put up a fight against it)

My main concern right now would be the synergy between FarSight and the LIbby plus how to better protect the FarSight bomb with cover saves. An open cover save of 4+ is fabulous, but a 2+ is even better.

I think I'll actually have to proxy and try this list before I actually get to buying the models. And practice with it if I like it. Don't want no more embarrasing defeats by Deep-Striking my Deathstar into the Cross-fire of 3 vindicators.

AnonAmbientLight wrote:
Exactly, but Teschio here would have you believe that there is no risk at all.

The right list, and right terrain placement can easily break this bomb. I know with what kind of lists i make, and how i'd place units / terrain, his bomb would have serious trouble.

The only way i'd have any problem with this list, is if i did not know what he is bringing at all until the match officially started and he's rolling for movement phase 1.

There IS risk in using this list. You may face one of the very few counters it has, and be unprepared to deal with it. Or, most likely, you will make a mistake and lose the game. To use this list properly, you need perfect positioning of models, or you seriously risk to lose. But in the right hands, this list is very strong. Not unbeatable, but with higher win rates than any other list i know of.

See, the phrase is red is the important one. I can think of 10 different lists that are specifically tailored to a Farsight Bomb and can annihilate it. But these lists will suck versus everything else, for the most part. So you will never bring them to a tournament. The scenario you depicted is EXACTLY what happens in a tournament: terrain is placed by the organization and can't be moved by players, and you will not know my list unitl we meet on the table. You maybe play friendly games, i don't. I play competitive games only, and every "friendly" match is just preparation for tournaments and list testing. Therefore, i always face ultra-competitive lists, and i build my lists not against a particular army, even if i KNOW what my opponent will bring, but to prepare for tournaments. For example, i want to test how a certain list works versus flyers spam, so i ask a friend to use Necrons with a lot of flyers (maybe CSM with allies Necrons, that is even worse). Even if i KNOW i will face lots of flyers, i don't change my list because of that. I want to see how the list i will bring to a tournament will deal with them, in case i have to face them. If after the game i think i need more AA, i change the list, but then i will test it versus a list with NO flyers to see if it is still good. THIS is the way i play and build lists. And this is the way i built my Farsight list. I used the exact same lists versus lots of different enemies, that were not tailored specifically to deal with it, but were competitive TAC lists. Then i brought it to tournaments, and i used the experience i got from those games to perfect it. Then i brought it to other tournaments, and saw that there was nothing i would have changed.

You, on the other hand, read the list and thought "man, if i do this and that, i can take it down easily". A lot of people i faced thought that. They changed their minds after they got tabled in 4-5 turns. Once you will talk from experience, maybe what you say can mean something. For now, it doesn't.

@Teschio

Just for examples sake, could you tell me the units and rules that would counter FarSight bomb quite nicely? I think Jaws of the World Wolf would gak on this list as it does for any Tau list.

Teschio wrote:

AnonAmbientLight wrote:
Exactly, but Teschio here would have you believe that there is no risk at all.

The right list, and right terrain placement can easily break this bomb. I know with what kind of lists i make, and how i'd place units / terrain, his bomb would have serious trouble.

The only way i'd have any problem with this list, is if i did not know what he is bringing at all until the match officially started and he's rolling for movement phase 1.

There IS risk in using this list. You may face one of the very few counters it has, and be unprepared to deal with it. Or, most likely, you will make a mistake and lose the game. To use this list properly, you need perfect positioning of models, or you seriously risk to lose. But in the right hands, this list is very strong. Not unbeatable, but with higher win rates than any other list i know of.

See, the phrase is red is the important one. I can think of 10 different lists that are specifically tailored to a Farsight Bomb and can annihilate it. But these lists will suck versus everything else, for the most part. So you will never bring them to a tournament. The scenario you depicted is EXACTLY what happens in a tournament: terrain is placed by the organization and can't be moved by players, and you will not know my list unitl we meet on the table. You maybe play friendly games, i don't. I play competitive games only, and every "friendly" match is just preparation for tournaments and list testing. Therefore, i always face ultra-competitive lists, and i build my lists not against a particular army, even if i KNOW what my opponent will bring, but to prepare for tournaments. For example, i want to test how a certain list works versus flyers spam, so i ask a friend to use Necrons with a lot of flyers (maybe CSM with allies Necrons, that is even worse). Even if i KNOW i will face lots of flyers, i don't change my list because of that. I want to see how the list i will bring to a tournament will deal with them, in case i have to face them. If after the game i think i need more AA, i change the list, but then i will test it versus a list with NO flyers to see if it is still good. THIS is the way i play and build lists. And this is the way i built my Farsight list. I used the exact same lists versus lots of different enemies, that were not tailored specifically to deal with it, but were competitive TAC lists. Then i brought it to tournaments, and i used the experience i got from those games to perfect it. Then i brought it to other tournaments, and saw that there was nothing i would have changed.

You, on the other hand, read the list and thought "man, if i do this and that, i can take it down easily". A lot of people i faced thought that. They changed their minds after they got tabled in 4-5 turns. Once you will talk from experience, maybe what you say can mean something. For now, it doesn't.

I read the list and i can counter it with simple positioning of terrain and units before the match even starts to severely limit your death stars impact.

You then pretend that no one brings pie units.

You then pretend like no one uses infiltrators.

You then pretend like no one will split up their units, or hide them for turn 1 shooting coming from you.

You then pretend like common units (that can harm you) found in most armies are not going to be a problem.

You then pretend like a 1750pt game means that the other guy isn't bringing anything substantial to the game.

You then pretend like the other units you brought will actually be doing something useful. (read: they are not).

You then pretend like you'll always be in 2+ cover and that 2d6 rolls always land on 12s.

You then pretend like you'll be able to neutralize all threats turn 1, ESPECIALLY if the enemy army decided to split up. I seem to recall last thread you said that all my markerlights, (both squads and my commander) would be dead, along with my riptide, and broadsides, and well, pretty much anything that was a threat to your guys. Because not only did they wipe them all out turn 1, they also got a SWEET 2d6 roll and got away to safety with a 2+ cover save to boot! If you think all that is, "tailored" for a Tau, then wow. And that's just my army.

I don't need experience to point out all those problems.

So let me get this straight. Tailored lists only work, if it's you doing the needle work?

AnonAmbientLight wrote:Any battle reports you care to describe to us, if you have the time?

So, if it works just like I described, interceptor applies whenever they come in from the GoI. Since they are, in a sense coming in from reserves.

Barrage sniping?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/464253.page

Unless this was FAQd.

Remember, 6in range on the target model that needs an LoS. Are you sure you know how it works?

Nice argument by authority too. You really sold your case. As i pointed out LAST thread (if you recall), Tau is new. They have not really been seen in many major tournaments. There's a REALLY REALLY REALLY good chance the people you are playing just do not know what they are fighting, or how to fight it because of the new codex.

How can the realities and problems I've illustrated before, suddenly disappear on the battlefield? Are you a dice god? Do you know the secret of the roll? Does blowing on the dice help: Confirm / Deny?

GoI IS a Deep-Strike , and thus Farsight's Trait is applied to it. But Interception has NOTHING to do with deep-strike, it is used when a unit arrives from RESERVE. With GoI, you Deep-Strike, but you are NOT coming from Reserve. Same goes for Coteaz. None of them is useful versus GoI.

Barrage sniping is a joke. Sure, if it hits an IC, all wounds get allocated to him. BUT, LoS is taken after allocation, so your IC will not suffer a single wound from that. For Characters, "being allocated a wound" and "having to save a wound" are not the same thing. You allocate them on the IC, you transfer them to the closest model within 6" with LoS, and then that model will have to save it. And if you don't have models within 6", you are making a mistake and you should lose (i said that you need perfect positioning to win. Having your IC without something to allocate wounds to is the opposite of perfect positioning: it's a mistake. When i said the list was strong, i also said "unless you make mistakes". in the hands of a monky, this list is much weaker, because it's hard to use).

Mine was not an argument by authority. I didn't say "i am the champion of this and that, so everything i say is true". But i DO talk from experience. You do not. You admitted you never even saw this list once. Forgive me if my opinion is worth more than yours: not because i am me, but becase i base what i say on experience and facts.

You have not illustrated any problems. You THINK those are problems, because you have never seen his list in action. There are other problems with this list that you didn't address. Also, while bad luck can happen, this list does not rely heavily on luck: everything is twin-linked, everything can shoot where it does more damage, the GoI movement does not scatter, the 2d6" JSJ is often irrelevant, i will have 2+ cover save with the important models... sure, i can roll six 1s in 6 dice, but with bad luck like that, no list can win. I will say this list is less luck-dependant than most competitive lists.

But Interception has NOTHING to do with deep-strike, it is used when a unit arrives from RESERVE. With GoI, you Deep-Strike, but you are NOT coming from Reserve. Same goes for Coteaz. None of them is useful versus GoI.

Oh, interceptor only applies to units coming from Reserve? Sweet. Less threats there.

@AnonAmbientLight;

You said that Faright can't die. Sarcastically I might add. My question is why do you believe he can die? With proper positioning, I'd imagine he'd be the last to die. Then you, among others, brought up that Barrage Sniping to try and kill him. I guess there are two flaws. There aren't many armies that have access to barrage weapons, let alone good ones. And two, Farsight can get 2+ look out sirs? I don't know. Seemed like a big gaping hole in that strategy.

Edit: Wait, they would have Sworn Protector and always pass LOS checks. How do you plan on killing Farsight again?

I do feel for both sides of the argument though. If you feel passionately about a list, you tend not to see the flaws because the list overall has more strengths then weaknesses. The strength definitely outweigh the weaknesses as well and any good general will know how to exploit them.

On the other side, if you have never played against it, you won't understand how strong it is. As well as if you don't have an incredibly competitive list to play against it, you simply will lose.

The strengths and weaknesses were obviously pointed out and each side's views are valid, but I still think the better general will win (assuming he has the weapons necessary in his army list). The better player will out position and outplay the weaker player.

Dude, you are funny

AnonAmbientLight wrote:
I read the list and i can counter it with simple positioning of terrain and units before the match even starts to severely limit your death stars impact.

In tournaments, YOU don't position terrain. The organization does. And you can't move it. In "friendly" mathces (actually, test matches: there is no friendly match for me), we have a third person place the terrain, or we do it randomly with dice rolling, so nobody can take advantage of terrain placement. Because we need to train for tournaments, and in those you don't have that advantage.

You then pretend that no one brings pie units.

Are they Barrage? If they are not, i don't care (as i said, but you seem not to listen, i usually ignore Riptides altogether...). If they are, you still need a Hit and i have to fail a 2+ cover save to kill the suit with the gadgets (if it's a S8+ pieplate). It happens once every 18 shots, i can live with that.

You then pretend like no one uses infiltrators.

Oh what a threat can Infiltrators be...

You then pretend like no one will split up their units, or hide them for turn 1 shooting coming from you.

Oh PLEASE split your forces, you will make it easier for me to kill you. Once again, you think this is a solution, as did some of my opponents, but when you see it in the field, you are just crippling yourself. Seriously, do it if you ever face this list, we'll see how it goes. And again, i talk from experience, i faced split armies multiple times, they are easier than people that can shoot at me with everything they have (every single pistol and rifle in their army).

You then pretend like common units (that can harm you) found in most armies are not going to be a problem.

"common units that can harm me"? Really? WHICH ONES? There are really a FEW common things that can harm that unit. There are of course a few uncommon ones. But they are uncommon.... i build TAC lists, if something appers in a game every 50, i just ignore it in the composition of the list.

You then pretend like a 1750pt game means that the other guy isn't bringing anything substantial to the game.

I build tournament lists, i am prepared for everything. But the good thing about this list is that what is a threat for almost everyone is rarely a threat for me. For example, 9 Nurgle Obliterators are a real pain for most armies, while they do nothing to me.

You then pretend like the other units you brought will actually be doing something useful. (read: they are not).

Oh sure, 2 Skyrays and 3 Missilsides with full missile drones won't do anything. They do what i need them to do. I don't have unrealistic expectations for my units: i don't pretend to glance a LR to death with Seekers. But i do expect that a Skyray can kill and AV 12 vehicle, expecially if he is in ML range as well. The difference between me and you is probably that i am perfectly aware of what a unit can be reasonably expected to do, and i use it to do something it can do reliably well, wether it is weakening a certain unit or taking care of a certain vehicle.

You then pretend like you'll always be in 2+ cover and that 2d6 rolls always land on 12s.

Always in a 2+ cover, at least with the important models: yes. and with my movement, unless you are playing on a desert, it can be done. Always roll a 12 on 2D6". No. I really don't know where this idea that i NEED JSJS movement comes from. Most turns i DO NOT ROLL for it, because i do not use it. I don't rely on that to win. If i did, i would have lost more games. If you are a tournament player, you learn to avoid taking risks that can lose you the game, because a single game lost, even in 2 days tournaments, means you can't win the tournament. You learn to take controlled risks. If i can kill a certain unit, but i have to rely on a high JSJ roll to avoid getting assaulted by something nasty, unless i REALLY need that unit to go, i wait for next turn. Better take a little extra time to win, but avoid risking to lose for a bad dice roll. But from what you write, i don't pretend you understand that...

You then pretend like you'll be able to neutralize all threats turn 1, ESPECIALLY if the enemy army decided to split up. I seem to recall last thread you said that all my markerlights, (both squads and my commander) would be dead, along with my riptide, and broadsides, and well, pretty much anything that was a threat to your guys. Because not only did they wipe them all out turn 1, they also got a SWEET 2d6 roll and got away to safety with a 2+ cover save to boot! If you think all that is, "tailored" for a Tau, then wow. And that's just my army.

This is something that i never said. I said: on turn 1 i kill all ML sources. Is it doable? HELL YES, they are not hard to kill! I can start working on the Broadsides as well (and can severely hurt them, even though probably i won't wipe them completely). But i will IGNORE the Riptide Then you said: well, i join my Commander with MSSS to the Riptide. Ok, change of plans: in this case, i will focus the Riptide (and at least one pathfinder unit, i can multitask with the bomb...), and use my other units (even firing all seekers if i need to!) to kill The remaining ML sources. In this case, i will completely ignore Broadsides. Then you said: ok, so i will split forces, and keep my pathfinders FAR from each other. Good, in this case i will move the unit to the sides, so i won't be in range of the far unit, while i take care of things in the side i went to. You mixed this up, and think i said i will eliminate Riptide, pathfinders, Commander and Broadsides in the same turn, but i didn't say that. Depeding on what you do, i can reliably take down what needs to go on turn one. Oh, and i NEVER talked about JSJ, i usually DEPLOY in cover wuth GoI, i don't NEED to roll. After i said it 10 times, one would think you will understand it....

I don't need experience to point out all those problems.

Oh yes you do. Because you don't realize that most of the things you said are no problems at all! You THINK they are problems because you have no idea what this list does. You know what can REALLY be a problem? Failing a Psychic test, expecially on first turn. With Ld10 you fail it once every 12 times, but can be enough to screw you over. The things you say are really IRRELEVANT compared to that, but you never mentioned that. Seriously, how can you waste so much time talking about something you have NEVER SEEN? I would be ashamed to do that, expecially if confronted with facts and reslts, not words in the wind...

So let me get this straight. Tailored lists only work, if it's you doing the needle work?

Tailored lists will always work. But i NEVER play vs them. I play onl tournaments and preparation for tournaments. ALL the lists i face are TAC lists. Have you ever BEEN to a tournament? Or do you talk without experience about that as well?

Well, i would say that is all i have to say to you. I don't know why i wasted so much time with someone that talks a lot but never played with or against this list... probably because i hope my answers will help others using this list better, and understanding that not everything needs to be feared (like pieplates... i can completely ignore the much-feared Riptides, if i take care of MLs first...).

Do me a favor though: stop writing until you have at least SEEN this list in action. Because as long as you haven't, your words mean nothing.

I want play against this army with my Nids army. Any chance your from central New Jersey? (Looks at Italian Flag...)

Saythings wrote:
I do feel for both sides of the argument though. If you feel passionately about a list, you tend not to see the flaws because the list overall has more strengths then weaknesses. The strength definitely outweigh the weaknesses as well and any good general will know how to exploit them.

Not exactly. On paper, you may overlook some flaws. But after you play it a lot, flaws become evident (they are the things that make you lose...). Then you modify the list, and test it again. This list is completely ddifferent from the one i first thought about: that one had some serious flaws, that i corrected. This one has some too, but having played it a lot i am fully aware of them (so i am prepared to deal with them). But it has far less flaws than any other list i ever played or even saw.

Saythings wrote:The strengths and weaknesses were obviously pointed out and each side's views are valid, but I still think the better general will win (assuming he has the weapons necessary in his army list). The better player will out position and outplay the weaker player.

In general, i will agree with you. But not in this case. 3-4 games lost over about 100 played can't be because of pure skill. I don't consider myself a 40K god, i am a decent player but nothing more. And with other lists my win rate was not nearly as high (i never lost a single game with this list, since it is in its definitive form...). To me, there is only one explanation for this: the list is overpowered. An alternative, less likely explanation is that when i started playing it i suddently became the best player in the world, along with every other person i know of that plays it. And i really doubt this is the case Consider also that most armies (not lists, armies) have nothing that can counter it. Some match-ups are an autowin unless you make major mistakes.


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Saythings wrote:
I want play against this army with my Nids army. Any chance your from central New Jersey? (Looks at Italian Flag...)

The flag is correct There's a big ocean between us, sorry...

I playes vs Nids twice (very similar lists: 3 tervigons, 15 gargs, flyrant, doom on spore, 16 yrmgals and a lot of gants), and in one game i had to do some work to win. Mainly because of Iron Arm on the Tervigons, S8/9 is HARD to deal with, even with Monster Hunter. If they don't get that power, it's an easy match-up, though, you can kill 2 of them on turn 1 (seekers hurt), and the list suddently becomes much less powerful.

Teschio wrote:


GoI IS a Deep-Strike , and thus Farsight's Trait is applied to it. But Interception has NOTHING to do with deep-strike, it is used when a unit arrives from RESERVE. With GoI, you Deep-Strike, but you are NOT coming from Reserve. Same goes for Coteaz. None of them is useful versus GoI.

As GoI is written, if you do not have farsight, and you mishap on the scatter, you get stuck in reserves. Think about this logically now. How does interceptor not apply in this situation? If you do not think it does, then it's NOT a deep strike, and you can't use farsight's warlord trait. You can't have both.

You're simply using the scatter rules, and they're not clear on it. Either way, it needs an FAQ.

Teschio wrote:

Barrage sniping is a joke. Sure, if it hits an IC, all wounds get allocated to him. BUT, LoS is taken after allocation, so your IC will not suffer a single wound from that. For Characters, "being allocated a wound" and "having to save a wound" are not the same thing. You allocate them on the IC, you transfer them to the closest model within 6" with LoS, and then that model will have to save it. And if you don't have models within 6", you are making a mistake and you should lose (i said that you need perfect positioning to win. Having your IC without something to allocate wounds to is the opposite of perfect positioning: it's a mistake. When i said the list was strong, i also said "unless you make mistakes". in the hands of a monky, this list is much weaker, because it's hard to use).

Once again, because he has nothing else on the field that could possibly weaken your unit before he makes the move to snipe the IC.

WHOA WHOA? Perfect timing and position? You were not saying that in the last thread at all. In fact, you were telling me, and anyone in ear shot that your death star was perfect in all regards. That nothing could stand against it. But now, its fallible?

Crap, you switched stances. Do you need perfect positioning, or not be a monkey? Or is it both?

Teschio wrote:

Mine was not an argument by authority. I didn't say "i am the champion of this and that, so everything i say is true". But i DO talk from experience. You do not. You admitted you never even saw this list once. Forgive me if my opinion is worth more than yours: not because i am me, but becase i base what i say on experience and facts.

Argument of authority is claiming someone else's position has less merit because they have not experienced it for themselves. In fact you said it a whole bunch of times in the post just above this one.

This makes for a hollow counter point as it offers nothing of substance to the discussion at hand. What would be a great argument for your position would be a battle report.

Teschio wrote:

You have not illustrated any problems. You THINK those are problems, because you have never seen his list in action. There are other problems with this list that you didn't address. Also, while bad luck can happen, this list does not rely heavily on luck: everything is twin-linked, everything can shoot where it does more damage, the GoI movement does not scatter, the 2d6" JSJ is often irrelevant, i will have 2+ cover save with the important models... sure, i can roll six 1s in 6 dice, but with bad luck like that, no list can win. I will say this list is less luck-dependant than most competitive lists.

This game isn't magical. It's not like suddenly, once the models are on the board, strange things will happen, rules get re-written and random events appear. That theory crafting and mathhammer do not matter to the game because of your anecdotal evidence to the contrary.

If you think its far-fetched for someone to limit your jump places with infiltrators, and hiding their units for a turn of firing,et.al., i really do not know what to tell you. We're obviously not playing the same game.

I'd argue that's a terrible Nids list, but alas, you will never get to play me :(

Good luck with this back and forward between Anon and yourself. I'm sure this thread will continue to live on until the thread gets locked or someone develops carpal tunnel. Let the type-off begin!!!

P.S.- Would either of you consider writing papers for college students? I heard they pay well and only has to be 2-3 pages. (Psst - That's less than a post for you guys)

I kid, I kid. Happy hunting.

 cycom wrote:
@Teschio

Just for examples sake, could you tell me the units and rules that would counter FarSight bomb quite nicely? I think Jaws of the World Wolf would gak on this list as it does for any Tau list.

I didn't forget about you Some examples (keep in mind that most threats can be destroyed quickly, like Whirlwinds. But they still hurt):

1) Jaws, like you said. But only on drop pod, if they are on foot you melt them before they can cast it. 2-3 Jaws on pod can REALLY hurt, expecially since they can target the suit with all the gadgets.
2) triple-Heldrake. They ignore cover and armor, and are a real pain. I faced them once, and it probably was the toughest game i had. Luckily, most CSM players around here prefer an ultra-aggressive list with 15 Nurgle Spawns.
3) Deathmarks with Despair Crypteks on Scythe. Man do they hurt! Like Heldrakes, but with Instant Death to boot. The only thing you can do is stay WAY back, out of range, and kill them the turn the scythe enters.
4) Markerlights. This MUST be eliminated first. Every single ML souce must go on turn 1, expeciall if there are Riptides too. Tactics depend a lot on who starts, hoping he won't Seize the Initiative...
5) Divination. The 4th power makes a unit ignore cover, depending on what unit it is, it can deal some serious damage. Luckily, powers are random, and that is not the Primaris.
6) Eldar Warlocks. They can remove your +3 to covers. Sure, they have Ld8, and you Deny the Witch on a 5+, but if they hit you with that, you are in trouble.
7) mass Wave Serpent spam (and i mean at least 4-5 of those). Serpent Shield doesn't ignore armor, but wounds on a 2+ and Ignores Cover. Plus, the hits will be twin-linked too because Scatter Lasers don't need to wound to twin-link the other weapons, they just need to hit. Even worse, it's HARD to kill those Serpents if you start first, since the shield will turn Penetrating Hits into Glancing on a 2+.
8) IG psykers squad + Barrage weapons. If he starts first, you are in trouble: Ld2 is BAD when you have to take Pinning tests (and Barrage are Pinning). Your unit will basicaly do nothing all game until destroyed. There are countermeasures, but it's a big threat.
9) whirlwind spam. They are cheap, they don't ignore armor, but they ignore cover, can Barrage Snipe and they don't need line of sight. Not a threat if you start first (you will melt them, a single MP suit kills one with Tank Hunter).
10) Multiple Land Raider, expecially with Terminators inside. You have only FBs to kill them, and even if you do you can still get Assaulted. 2 terminator units assaulting you can be hard. I suggest you don't try to kill them both on one turn, kill one and move so that you may get assaulted by one unit, not both. You can resist to one unit, not 2.
11) daemons spam. And i mean A LOT of bodies, like 4x20 daemonettes that run to you. They hurt, and while you don't lack quality fire, you are a bit short on crowd control, expecially crowds with a save...
12) noise marines spam with Blastmasters: S8, AP3, Blast, Ignores Cover. A nightmare. 6 of them and you are in big trouble.
13) Wraithguard with D-scythes. Not much to say, you need to kill them before they get close, or kill their transport ASAP. If they disembark at 1" from you, you die.
14) triple-Dreadknight. Not a big threat to suits, but melts drones easily, without drones, you have no protection, he can fire everything he has and you will roll 1s sooner or later.
15) Deathleaper: virtually unkillable, reduces the Libby's Ld by 1D3, it's BAD when you rely on casting GoI for mobility.

There are more for sure, this is just a short list. Most can be dealt with if you know what to do, others are a threat but not a mortal one, a few are devastating counters (but luckily, not seen very often).


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AnonAmbientLight wrote:
As GoI is written, if you do not have farsight, and you mishap on the scatter, you get stuck in reserves. Think about this logically now. How does interceptor not apply in this situation? If you do not think it does, then it's NOT a deep strike, and you can't use farsight's warlord trait. You can't have both.

You're simply using the scatter rules, and they're not clear on it. Either way, it needs an FAQ.

Just this once, since it's a rule thing and not a debate generated by your inexperience (i gave up on talking to you about the rest of the stuff): There is no logic in this game, there are only RULES. The rules say that GoI is a Deep-Strike. The rules say Farsight's Trait applies to Deep-strikes. The rules say Interception only applies to units that come from Reserves. Sure, if you scatter with GoI and have a mishap you get placed in Reserve. This does NOT mean that EVERY deep-strike comes from Reserve. GoI doesn't. If you do get a mishap, and you get placed in Reserve, when you enter next turn you will be hit by Interception. But with a GoI that doesn't end in a mishap, you don't. The rules are clear, leave the common sense behind, RAW is the only thing that matters.

Saythings wrote:P.S.- Would either of you consider writing papers for college students? I heard they pay well and only has to be 2-3 pages. (Psst - That's less than a post for you guys)

I did it, when i was studying in the US. Rich kids with no brain pay really well for that kind of work

Hot damn, that's actually quite a comprehensive list. Thanks

You 2 have fun XD I find both your opinions actually very useful when considering this list (although as mentioned, this has become a rather serious list :x ) Plus, anyone who really needs to read all about this FarSight bomb (cheese?) tactic can read this now

I personally know Jaws of the World Wolf to be devastating because I watched a player lose 3 Psyrifle dreads in 1 turn because of his rather unfortunate placement and dice rolls.

There's a sense of poetic justice that my previous GK Pallie Deathstar list would create havoc for this FarSight bomb list due to the 2 land raiders I was going to field (full of terminators with the Deathstar deep-striking in).

I'm just curious now which would last longer, this FarSight bomb or my 10 man Paladin deathstar with Draigo. One has FNP and 5+ invul and 2+ armour. the other 2+ armour with 4+ cover (or 2+). They both have LoS and a model that can tank lots of damage (though I think Draigo is significantly harder to kill but I don't have 3 high wound HQs unlike the FarSight bomb).
I actually think both Deathstars could be quite even against each other if I use the attached Libby for the Pallie deathstars

Teschio wrote:

3) Deathmarks with Despair Crypteks on Scythe. Man do they hurt! Like Heldrakes, but with Instant Death to boot. The only thing you can do is stay WAY back, out of range, and kill them the turn the scythe enters.

Im pretty sure those suits are not LD4.. So Despair teks wont ID...

Shan1 wrote:
Im pretty sure those suits are not LD4.. So Despair teks wont ID...

Right, i missed the FAQ about using the Ld instead of the T to determine Instant Death threshold. They still hurt like hell though

cycom wrote:Hot damn, that's actually quite a comprehensive list. Thanks

You 2 have fun XD I find both your opinions actually very useful when considering this list (although as mentioned, this has become a rather serious list :x ) Plus, anyone who really needs to read all about this FarSight bomb (cheese?) tactic can read this now

I personally know Jaws of the World Wolf to be devastating because I watched a player lose 3 Psyrifle dreads in 1 turn because of his rather unfortunate placement and dice rolls.

There's a sense of poetic justice that my previous GK Pallie Deathstar list would create havoc for this FarSight bomb list due to the 2 land raiders I was going to field (full of terminators with the Deathstar deep-striking in).

I'm just curious now which would last longer, this FarSight bomb or my 10 man Paladin deathstar with Draigo. One has FNP and 5+ invul and 2+ armour. the other 2+ armour with 4+ cover (or 2+). They both have LoS and a model that can tank lots of damage (though I think Draigo is significantly harder to kill but I don't have 3 high wound HQs unlike the FarSight bomb).
I actually think both Deathstars could be quite even against each other if I use the attached Libby for the Pallie deathstars

To be honest, there is absolutely no comparison between a Farsight Bomb and a Draigo Bomb. Paladins don't shoot nearly as much, and will get melted with Plasma Rifles and Fusion Blasters (expecially the latter, ID and they negate FnP). Every model a Farsight Bomb loses to shooting is a drone, while losing a paladin hurst you much more. Paladins will never assault that unit becose it's too mobile, and after i take care of LRs, i don't need the 24" movement anymore, so the Librarian will cast Null Zone (his other power) to force you to reroll IS. You, on the other hand, have nothing that negates cover caves.

It may be a meta thing, but here Draigowings have disappeared with the 6th edition. I personally think they are weaker than other GK lists (and i talk from experience here as well, being GKs one of my armies). I haven't see a single Paladin on the field in the last few months... just for fun, send me a PM with your list, would you?

Oh yes, I forgot to consider the huge amount of extra bodies the FarSight bomb has.

And that Meltas ID Paladins.

In the unlikely chance I do get to assault a FarSight bomb though, DraigoWings gonna go to work.

I feel that in 6th ed, DraigoWing is more of a cleanup/wrecking crew. They pop in around turn 3 after objectives have been seized to break all fire support and vaporise troop count so nothing can contest the objectives. Or maybe that's just the way I've been running them because that's when they're really effective to me.

And this is disgressing from the actual topic. My other list will be up soon. More suits, less cheese and RIpTides

So going back to the previous page for a moment, thanks for pointing out my cheating ways with Look Out Sir I re-read the rule and FAQ and feel properly silly.