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I never liked the assault part of the game. We are in the far future and shooting should be deadly. I can see assault being huge but only if you get there. If a shooting army wants to assault, there should be a pinning mechanic. Fearless doesn't mean stupid. If a unit is pinned they shouldn't be able to over watch or be able to assault at their initiative. That could fix your assaults armies.

 ductvader wrote:
The comment abourt almost guaranteed 6 referred to run alone and how the army is now even faster in the movement phase as well as the assault phase.

Do explain... I know beasts move faster, but what else is moving faster....?

 ductvader wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
And as for the bladestorm comment, you don't know for certain you'll hit...you could miss every shot...just like you could roll a 2 for a charge...unlikely but possible

Shooting, same for any gun, but let's use bolter(default weapon, basically): At 24", I know I'll get 1 shot, then it's BS4 for to-hit, and then S vs T for to-wound, then it's whatever save is available, lastly we have FNP or RP or whatever.

Assault, let's just use plain CCW for the sake of default weapon: At 2D6" range, if I succeed on the roll, I get to assault, if not, I gave away a free turn of BS1(or higher if Tau) shooting at my unit, on my turn(and as explained, depending on unit in question, the impact could be huge for leaving a fragile blob in the open because of a factor that I have little control over), then it's WS vs WS for to-hit, S vs T for to-wound, then it's whatever save is available, lastly we have FNP or RP or whatever.

Can you really not see the difference here?

And you are comparing rolling to hit with rolling ranges. Think about if every army had veil of tears on their units, all of them. So every time you try to shoot at an enemy you had to roll range for it. Then you had to hit. Then you had to wound. Then saves had to be failed. Notice that the range roll would equate to a 1 or 0 relation where you either get to do damage or you get to stand there.

Probabilities are actually meaningless on a scale of less than 10,000 instances. Anything under that limit is essentially random. I tend to be a mathammer guy yet I have rolled 12 1's in a row. The probabilities say I probably should not see this in my entire life time. Yet, I have and it cost me a seer council in a single turn. Probability is a nice guide but the extreme cases have to happen too in a complete series.

Additionally, You can have a 58% chance to get 7"+ but that means you have a 42% chance to have less than that. With something like charge movement this can be a very large risk. Especially with wyches as pointed out above.

scitech wrote:
I never liked the assault part of the game. We are in the far future and shooting should be deadly. I can see assault being huge but only if you get there. If a shooting army wants to assault, there should be a pinning mechanic. Fearless doesn't mean stupid. If a unit is pinned they shouldn't be able to over watch or be able to assault at their initiative. That could fix your assaults armies.

You have a literal god formed out of angry people hitting things who craps out little angry ragemen riding metal rhinoceroses formed out of pure hate who can crush a liquid. Please tell me where realism enters the picture..

Although assault hasn't been changed much besides rolled distance, shooting has got some major buffs that everyone here is pointing out. Although I preferred CC in 5th ed, simply because it worked, I like the idea more that shooting is more powerful in the 41st millennium. Even today swords and knifes and such for the army is really irrelevant, happens but not often. It also makes it slightly more realistic to kill guys up front or not behind cover with focus fire, cause that’s what happens.

So slightly sad that gone are the days of any unit just running into CC, but overall I think it’s a better move fluff wise. Orks/Tyranids will likely get better in CC with new dexs because that’s their fluff, but a space marine with a powerful bolter should be more deadly than one with a fist.

 Icculus wrote:

But to the OP. I think shooting should be stronger. You ever heard the "bring a knife to a gun fight" metaphor? Guns should prove strong, and if you charge across a field to an army of people with guns, you will get shot. That's real world warfare.

Can people please stop saying things like this.

What makes sense in the real world should have little to no bearing on the mechanics of a game.

In SC2 it doesn't make sense that a group of marines with rifles can shoot down a battleship in orbit but it works gameplay wise.

 Al2ies wrote:
I'm just wondering what they are going to Orks and their shooting abilities (if anything) when they finally are up for a revision. I hate being overwatched but the rulebook makes a great statement about it: "No army stands idly by while someone is charging in."

People don't stand idly by while being shot at either, yet thats how it works in-game.

It's "shooty edition" because of the double standard between assault and shooting.

>shooting has set ranges which it achieves every time, assault has random distance
>reaction fire against assault but not shooting
>shooting from deep strike, outflank etc but not assault
>shooting on first turn, assault cannot happen first turn even if you get close enough

 Madcat87 wrote:

 Icculus wrote:

But to the OP. I think shooting should be stronger. You ever heard the "bring a knife to a gun fight" metaphor? Guns should prove strong, and if you charge across a field to an army of people with guns, you will get shot. That's real world warfare.

Can people please stop saying things like this.

What makes sense in the real world should have little to no bearing on the mechanics of a game.

In SC2 it doesn't make sense that a group of marines with rifles can shoot down a battleship in orbit but it works gameplay wise.

Personally, I agree Madcat. Unfortunately, realism is like curry. Some people want a lot, other people, not so much. (I like my 40k like I like my Indian takeout: mild.) Assault oriented armies are a part of the game, and I don't think for a second that they should be sidelined in the name of realism.

On the other side of that, I started playing in 3rd edition, and I think this game has always had a slight favor towards assault based armies. I think Overwatch is one of the best changes made to the game so far. (Random charge ranges are another one.)

I play both units as well as armies that are assault oriented, and while I think the new edition has added a new degree of complexity, I don't think it's made these units/armies non viable by any stretch of the imagination.

Fairly certain you can get first turn assault unless it's like an infiltrator unit, if someone deploys on their deployment zone's edge and I have my Baron beastpack on my deployment zone's edge, I'm going 2nd, and because that someone is also an idiot who then decide to move 12" forward toward my beastpack, I'm certain that I can charge him... But yeah, I don't think it will happen too often however. May be a drop pod scatter or something.

 ductvader wrote:
The comment abourt almost guaranteed 6 referred to run alone and how the army is now even faster in the movement phase as well as the assault phase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And as for the bladestorm comment, you don't know for certain you'll hit...you could miss every shot...just like you could roll a 2 for a charge...unlikely but possible

One could also fail with every 'to hit' roll in an assault, the point is having the guaranteed opportunity to make those attack rolls in the first place.

I've never really had trouble with assault, and I've only ever played 6th. I prefer shooty and dakka.

Shooting is easier in 6th, but not better. Shooting is the dark side of the force. Quicker, easier, more tempting, but ultimately weaker.

Most people have trouble with assault because they are still playing 5th edition assault lists. 6th edition assault lists are an entirely different thing and are very effective.

6th edition assault units have never been faster. They are congregated mostly in the CSM and Daemon codex right now, but they will branch out

One could also fail with every 'to hit' roll in an assault, the point is having the guaranteed opportunity to make those attack rolls in the first place.

The guarantee of being in the safety of close combat is of great importance. Otherwise, your assault might get mowed down by enemy fire. I for one would accept a malus to WS (or risk loosing an attack) if I could guarantee a 6" assault and making close combat.

DarthDiggler wrote:
Shooting is easier in 6th, but not better. Shooting is the dark side of the force. Quicker, easier, more tempting, but ultimately weaker.

The Dark Side is neither weaker nor stronger. Technically. But I see your point.

I can see the ork assault rules in their book now.

For every 2 casualties suffered due to overwatch in the assault phase, add 1" to the charge distance.

For every 3 casualties suffered due to overwatch in the assault phase, each ork gains 1 attack.

The tears would be delicious.

 Madcat87 wrote:
In SC2 it doesn't make sense that a group of marines with rifles can shoot down a battleship in orbit but it works gameplay wise.

No, it's just a stupid gameplay element that only "works" if you completely ignore the fluff behind it. 40k is a game that's supposed to be all about the fluff, so maintaining some degree of realism is important. And the simple fact is that assault only happens in 40k because the game is not true 28mm scale. If you re-design the game so that movement and shooting distances are both at the correct 28mm scale assault will almost never happen.

 ductvader wrote:
There are many things that have made assault and movement much better than it was before as well. Randomization of wounds, challenges, cover with 25% of a model hidden. An increased threat range on assaults...fleet working for running as well...

I personally believe the biggest/only real downside that assault got in 6th is focus fire.

I wouldn't praise challenges so much. In fact, I would lean against it being praise worthy. It wrecks the power blob tactic, can curb MC assault units, and can downgrade some others as well as being a great stall tactic. Whilst random wounds in CC is good doesn't help the closest model suffers and finally in the old version if certain requirements were made, your entire group had cover instead of a model by model basis. Also I'd say fleet arguably got worse.

 ColdSadHungry wrote:
Since 6th hit, none of the true assault armies have had a new codex. It's been all the shooty guys, or shooty/assault capable armies. Im pretty sure that when orks or BA get a new dex they'll have plenty of new tools to help them out.

Generally speaking though, I agree it's harder to assault with any old assault capable unit.

Actually this isn't so! Chaos Daemons are probably the most assault oriented army and, for the most part, can do it well enough.

No offense but my greatest question is.... why push for so much realism? This is the world where hqs for the most part seem bent towards close combat. This is the world where orks, Nids, Blood Angels, Daemons, certain CSM armies, certain SM armies, fluffy Space Wolves, arguably fluffy GK, DE, and a few other forces are supposedly built around assault. Some are oriented towards shooting to weaken and then executing whilst others are oriented towards just crashing in and slaughtering. This is a world where guns suddenly mystically become worthless past there range and somehow orks and space marines fire at the same overwatch capability. This is the world where reality defying daemons ignore bolter shots by fading in and out, nids evolve to resist things continuously, and orks get their head popped off and have a fellow ork grab it, plunk it back on, and as their good ol' buddy gets right back up! In fact, I'd argue that realistically air support and orbital bombardments should be more important if we wanted to go for realism and psykers should just ignore the battlefield with over the top nonsense magic (when deploying any lord of change or deploying ML4 psykers like Ahriman). Oh and titans shouldn't die to meltaguns. But 40k has never been realistic. Look at all Space Marines have! Look at the SoB faith system and then Celestine. Blind faith activating the full potential of humans or the power of the warp? Who knows. I will say this again and again. 3rd was not fun because, even if I prefer assault, it favoured assault far too much (I believe that was the edition). 6th edition has the same problem and both are just as revolting as the other to me. Finally, saying that you shouldn't be able to make an assault only army is balderdash when it is entirely acceptable to make a shooting only army. For pete's sake, the best a Daemon/Nid giant of doom can hit you on is a 3+ whilst shooting can get rerolls of 2+ to hit with a 2+ re-roll if their bs is high enough.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Madcat87 wrote:
In SC2 it doesn't make sense that a group of marines with rifles can shoot down a battleship in orbit but it works gameplay wise.

No, it's just a stupid gameplay element that only "works" if you completely ignore the fluff behind it. 40k is a game that's supposed to be all about the fluff, so maintaining some degree of realism is important. And the simple fact is that assault only happens in 40k because the game is not true 28mm scale. If you re-design the game so that movement and shooting distances are both at the correct 28mm scale assault will almost never happen.

Realism...In the year 40,000.


Please try again.

Peregrine wrote:

 Madcat87 wrote:
In SC2 it doesn't make sense that a group of marines with rifles can shoot down a battleship in orbit but it works gameplay wise.

No, it's just a stupid gameplay element that only "works" if you completely ignore the fluff behind it. 40k is a game that's supposed to be all about the fluff, so maintaining some degree of realism is important. And the simple fact is that assault only happens in 40k because the game is not true 28mm scale. If you re-design the game so that movement and shooting distances are both at the correct 28mm scale assault will almost never happen.

Kain wrote:

scitech wrote:
I never liked the assault part of the game. We are in the far future and shooting should be deadly. I can see assault being huge but only if you get there. If a shooting army wants to assault, there should be a pinning mechanic. Fearless doesn't mean stupid. If a unit is pinned they shouldn't be able to over watch or be able to assault at their initiative. That could fix your assaults armies.

You have a literal god formed out of angry people hitting things who craps out little angry ragemen riding metal rhinoceroses formed out of pure hate who can crush a liquid. Please tell me where realism enters the picture..

 Kain wrote:
You have a literal god formed out of angry people hitting things who craps out little angry ragemen riding metal rhinoceroses formed out of pure hate who can crush a liquid. Please tell me where realism enters the picture..

Realism enters the picture when you fix the scale problems and it takes those assault units at least 10-20 turns to cross the space between deployment zones and get into combat. The only reason they can survive the charge through enemy fire to get into range is that the distances involved are not scaled correctly and it only takes 1-2 turns.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Kain wrote:
You have a literal god formed out of angry people hitting things who craps out little angry ragemen riding metal rhinoceroses formed out of pure hate who can crush a liquid. Please tell me where realism enters the picture..

Realism enters the picture when you fix the scale problems and it takes those assault units at least 10-20 turns to cross the space between deployment zones and get into combat. The only reason they can survive the charge through enemy fire to get into range is that the distances involved are not scaled correctly and it only takes 1-2 turns.

Or the daemons just teleport in your face and butcher you anyway.

Standard logic does not apply to enemies who can break reality.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Kain wrote:
You have a literal god formed out of angry people hitting things who craps out little angry ragemen riding metal rhinoceroses formed out of pure hate who can crush a liquid. Please tell me where realism enters the picture..

Realism enters the picture when you fix the scale problems and it takes those assault units at least 10-20 turns to cross the space between deployment zones and get into combat. The only reason they can survive the charge through enemy fire to get into range is that the distances involved are not scaled correctly and it only takes 1-2 turns.

Kain! Take pride in the fact that fluff wise rippers should be crawling between nids and there should be so many nids that the enemy runs out of ammo extremely frequently (and evolve to ignore some of your guns or at least null much of the pain)

Except it doesn't. Daemons crawl out of the warp behind/infront/inyou, Tyranids leap out of bushes, baneblades drive out of newspapers, myotic spores drop from the sky, and berzerkers laugh as they ride inside of vehicles that are open topped to hop right out of to rip and maim and tear you in CC. Oh and did I forget to mention orks falling from the sky on meteors? And yet again this is arguing realism in a game where we have warp entities, tyranids that constantly evolve, and SPES Marines that have armour that fluff wise can ignore shells that would crush mortals. Whilst scaling is admittedly a problem (so too is the fact guardsman are the same height as IG), it doesn't change the fact that assault units aren't as dumb as that. Heck fluff wise nids would likely have rippers swarming across the floor whilst daemons have weird... abominations crawling swirling, hissing, and webbing you down whilst combat persists (or you are nurgle and laugh at the holes in your body).

 StarTrotter wrote:
Kain! Take pride in the fact that fluff wise rippers should be crawling between nids and there should be so many nids that the enemy runs out of ammo extremely frequently (and evolve to ignore some of your guns or at least null much of the pain)

And then realism enters the picture again and nuclear weapons incinerate the whole mess in one shot. Swarms of melee Tyranids only "work" because GW conveniently pretends that heavy weapons don't exist.

Except it doesn't. Daemons crawl out of the warp behind/infront/inyou, Tyranids leap out of bushes, baneblades drive out of newspapers, myotic spores drop from the sky, and berzerkers laugh as they ride inside of vehicles that are open topped to hop right out of to rip and maim and tear you in CC.

Ah yes, the magic "they just appear next to you" argument where we pretend that nobody ever uses IR cameras/radar/etc to spot those stealthy units, proper AA weapons (even 1950s-era SAMs would make a drop pod assault suffer 99% casualties before a single pod hits the ground), or just shoots that open-topped vehicle with a guided missile from several miles away.

And yet again this is arguing realism in a game where we have warp entities, tyranids that constantly evolve, and SPES Marines that have armour that fluff wise can ignore shells that would crush mortals.

So you agree then that a single grot should kill a titan 100% of the time if they fight?

 Peregrine wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:
Kain! Take pride in the fact that fluff wise rippers should be crawling between nids and there should be so many nids that the enemy runs out of ammo extremely frequently (and evolve to ignore some of your guns or at least null much of the pain)

And then realism enters the picture again and nuclear weapons incinerate the whole mess in one shot. Swarms of melee Tyranids only "work" because GW conveniently pretends that heavy weapons don't exist.

Except it doesn't. Daemons crawl out of the warp behind/infront/inyou, Tyranids leap out of bushes, baneblades drive out of newspapers, myotic spores drop from the sky, and berzerkers laugh as they ride inside of vehicles that are open topped to hop right out of to rip and maim and tear you in CC.

Ah yes, the magic "they just appear next to you" argument where we pretend that nobody ever uses IR cameras/radar/etc, proper AA weapons (even 1950s-era SAMs would make a drop pod assault suffer 99% casualties before a single pod hits the ground), or just shoots that open-topped vehicle with a guided missile from several miles away.

And yet again this is arguing realism in a game where we have warp entities, tyranids that constantly evolve, and SPES Marines that have armour that fluff wise can ignore shells that would crush mortals.

So you agree then that a single grot should kill a titan 100% of the time if they fight?

Typically when a Tyranid Swarm is in full swing, they've destroyed your space fleet, and they can deploy anywhere they want, including right on top of you.

Also, nice to see that you're ignoring my point that Daemons can simply teleport or drive anyone who looks at them mad or crawl out of your psyker's head to spite your silly laws like reality.

As for SAMs, even hitting a missile at Mach 3 is highly difficult for any non specialized system. Hitting something dropping in at meteorotic velocity has been repeatedly shown to be next to impossible with anything short of anti-ballistic missile systems, which are only intended for weapon systems ridiculously larger than a drop pod. A drop pod only slows down to somewhat reasonable speeds in the very final stretches of it's deployment, well below the minimum ceiling of most SAM weapons.

Humans would be reduced to jelly by the sudden deceleration, but space marines aren't human.

 Kain wrote:
Typically when a Tyranid Swarm is in full swing, they've destroyed your space fleet, and they can deploy anywhere they want, including right on top of you.

Well, if you want to look beyond the scale of the 40k battlefield and talk about the strategic situation then Tyranids don't exist at all since eating planets is a net loss in energy (so the swarm shrinks every time it eats a planet). Not that they'd bother anyway, since the idea of an alien swarm from outside the galaxy eating us and borrowing our DNA is significantly less plausible than you successfully mating with a tree.

Also, nice to see that you're ignoring my point that Daemons can simply teleport or drive anyone who looks at them mad or crawl out of your psyker's head to spite your silly laws like reality.

Of course I'm ignoring it because it's a blatant "it's magic, it does whatever the plot wants it to do".

 Peregrine wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:
Kain! Take pride in the fact that fluff wise rippers should be crawling between nids and there should be so many nids that the enemy runs out of ammo extremely frequently (and evolve to ignore some of your guns or at least null much of the pain)

And then realism enters the picture again and nuclear weapons incinerate the whole mess in one shot. Swarms of melee Tyranids only "work" because GW conveniently pretends that heavy weapons don't exist.

Except it doesn't. Daemons crawl out of the warp behind/infront/inyou, Tyranids leap out of bushes, baneblades drive out of newspapers, myotic spores drop from the sky, and berzerkers laugh as they ride inside of vehicles that are open topped to hop right out of to rip and maim and tear you in CC.

Ah yes, the magic "they just appear next to you" argument where we pretend that nobody ever uses IR cameras/radar/etc to spot those stealthy units, proper AA weapons (even 1950s-era SAMs would make a drop pod assault suffer 99% casualties before a single pod hits the ground), or just shoots that open-topped vehicle with a guided missile from several miles away.

And yet again this is arguing realism in a game where we have warp entities, tyranids that constantly evolve, and SPES Marines that have armour that fluff wise can ignore shells that would crush mortals.

So you agree then that a single grot should kill a titan 100% of the time if they fight?

Awww ye' cause orks are da best! Joking aside, well if we want to go there.... why not just exterminatus every planet and nuke everything else? Who cares about the ground fights when we can just grab artillery, air planes, and space ships. Forget soldiers they are an idiotic idea and should never have been used against such threatening enemies we shall throws this away and blow our enemies up with nukes. Also would every army be able to constantly IR for everything? And this is an epic scale army. We have to have some suspension of disbelief or things, as you mentioned, like a single pod landing would never land. So what? Should we never play landing pads. And daemons? Can you really easily counter them hopping out of... thin air? Or hopping out of your local psyker and phasing in and out of reality as you see your gun shots fly straight through them and then shoot a million mutating mind bullets of doom!

And no I'm not saying a single grot killing a titan is good. Heck I have a problem with meltaguns effectively popping titans (though it is funny thinking of a guardsman popping a titan with a melta). Realism is nothing I want. A bit of authenticity? Most certainly. I want my marines to feel like every man's death means something. I want my guardsman to be flung at the enemy with casual disregard as artillery fires from the sky and my DKoK die with a smile on their face (if they can even smile) knowing they did good for the emperor.

Finally, if you are going to ignore chaos popping up, then we should bring up an important question. Why argue about any of this? Realistically Titans shouldn't even work! IG mortallity rate is so high they should be whiped out. The SM on the table die in droves to the point where if every time they fell they died, space marine chapters would be lost in only a few games.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Typically when a Tyranid Swarm is in full swing, they've destroyed your space fleet, and they can deploy anywhere they want, including right on top of you.

Well, if you want to look beyond the scale of the 40k battlefield and talk about the strategic situation then Tyranids don't exist at all since eating planets is a net loss in energy (so the swarm shrinks every time it eats a planet). Not that they'd bother anyway, since the idea of an alien swarm from outside the galaxy eating us and borrowing our DNA is significantly less plausible than you successfully mating with a tree.

Also, nice to see that you're ignoring my point that Daemons can simply teleport or drive anyone who looks at them mad or crawl out of your psyker's head to spite your silly laws like reality.

Of course I'm ignoring it because it's a blatant "it's magic, it does whatever the plot wants it to do".

This is a setting that runs on comic book science where magic is very much real with real and actual malevolent gods. Both are integral to the setting and without it you'd just have HALO without the Flood and more catholicism references. Which would be boring. But you seem to want an Arthur C. Clarke novel with more violence rather than 40k.

I mean, why should the forces of Chaos who live in a place where neither time nor space exist in a way we understand even care about the laws of physics? When so much as gathering in a single place in large enough numbers causes virtually all laws of reality to completely break down.

A few thing's have diminished it.

1. Heldrake was the death of the marine assault armies, blood angels assault marines, for instance. Now that's out of the way

2. Vehicles are unreliable. And many assault armies rely on vehicles to get them to the front. With the weight of fire on the table, it's not hard to take out an assault unit's transport before they can get into position .

3. Unit's that don't need transports for assault, don't have the numbers needed to survive. It used to be, that ork boyz diddn't need transports, because there was so many, that they would get across the board by turn 4 and still have enough to cause havoc. Generally, if you are not in assault by turn 4 now, you will die before you get there. Hence all the talk of turn 2 assaults being powerfull, but otherwise not so much.

So yeah, assault units are bad because-
It's too slow. If it's not too slow-
It relies on a vehicle to transport it. If it doesn't rely on a vehicle-
It's a unit paying for mobility, and resilience, and killing power all in one, meaning it will cost more points than it's shooting equivalent, which will not necessarily need mobility or resilience, or power, due to sheer weight of numbers.

 Kain wrote:
As for SAMs, even hitting a missile at Mach 3 is highly difficult for any non specialized system. Hitting something dropping in at meteorotic velocity has been repeatedly shown to be next to impossible with anything short of anti-ballistic missile systems, which are only intended for weapon systems ridiculously larger than a drop pod.

Nope. Hitting incoming mach 3 targets is trivially easy when they're on a ballistic trajectory (and a drop pod will effectively be on a ballistic trajectory). Do some basic math, and put a block of metal in its path. We were successfully getting direct contact hits on incoming ICBM warheads (which are significantly smaller than a drop pod) with 1950s technology. I can see an IG army being vulnerable to drop pods since they seem to be stuck in WWII at best, but Tau/Eldar/Necrons would effortlessly turn a drop pod assault into a rain of space marine fragments.

A drop pod only slows down to somewhat reasonable speeds in the very final stretches of it's deployment, well below the minimum ceiling of most SAM weapons.

Which makes it even worse then, since the kinetic energy involved in the collision makes a warhead redundant. To be a difficult target you need to have maneuvering, not just speed directly at the launcher, and drop pods don't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 StarTrotter wrote:
And no I'm not saying a single grot killing a titan is good. Heck I have a problem with meltaguns effectively popping titans (though it is funny thinking of a guardsman popping a titan with a melta).

Why are you talking about realism in 40k?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kain wrote:
This is a setting that runs on comic book science where magic is very much real with real and actual malevolent gods. Both are integral to the setting and without it you'd just have HALO without the Flood and more catholicism references. Which would be boring. But you seem to want an Arthur C. Clarke novel with more violence rather than 40k.

IMO demons are the least fun part of the setting. Demons and Tyranids IMO are the stupid armies you have to put up with because it's rude to refuse to play against people over their army choice, if GW removed both of them from the game entirely I'd be very happy.

 Peregrine wrote:
Which makes it even worse then, since the kinetic energy involved in the collision makes a warhead redundant. To be a difficult target you need to have maneuvering, not just speed directly at the launcher, and drop pods don't.

Well, the most difficult target is one your SAM can't see, and as 'auspex' technology appears to be extremely primitive radar, that may be why drop pod assaults work. I also think you're overestimating our success rate with ballistic kill vehicles a little.

Nevertheless, it's irrelevant. Drop pod assaults happen all the time in fluff, as does melee combat. It's impossible to be both realistic and based on the established fluff.