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Made in gb
Renegade Inquisitor de Marche






Elephant Graveyard

Except in this scenario they do not have orbital assets.
I don't see how they could avoid a war of attrition in this scenario...

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"Further proof that Purple is a fething brilliant super villain " -KingCracker
"Purp.. Im pretty sure I have a gun than can reach you...."-Nicorex
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tommse wrote:
A full maned drop pod should deal with the most important targets. Just imagine a pod breaching through the roof of the white house. That alone would stun the whole world for quite some time. Then the huge bulk of the civilian population has no idea how to fight at all and the bulk of modern military is trained in a support role, they barely train to fight either. Some shock attacks at political, military and logistic key points and pretty much everything would collaps.


I think the only reason that scenario is possible is because IMHO if we detected a gigantic ship near our planet the USA President would likely go to a secret bunker together with the top military strategists to coordinate the defense.

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Deepstriking Termis don´t care for secret bunkers
   
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Portugal

tommse wrote:
Deepstriking Termis don´t care for secret bunkers


Touché!

"Fear is freedom! Subjugation is liberation! Contradiction is truth! These are the truths of this world! Surrender to these truths, you pigs in human clothing!" - Satsuki Kiryuin, Kill la Kill 
   
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Considering the number of gods worshipped on Earth and the general decadance we would be labeled Heretics after about 5 minutes.

The Westboro group would probably hold signs "God hates Space Marines" "God Hates the Emperor".

After a few days the Inquisition will realize we are way too stubborn and divided to be brought into compliance.

A week after we would end up on the wrong end of an exterminatus.

In other words they would not bother trying to wage a conventional war as we and our world are not worth the effort.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/04 13:48:34


 
   
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 Erik_Morkai wrote:

After a few days the Inquisition will realize we are way too stubborn and divided to be brought into compliance.


Stu... what? Are we talking about Modern Day Earth (with all the consumerism, multiculturalism, globalism and whateverism) or some mythological land where people actually care to combat such a foe like a Space Marine Chapter instead of, say, surrender themselves.

I think if a Space Marine Chapter showed up, the following would happen:
- They show up, and the media immediately goes haywire. The Earth is lighted up by massive fires of public enthusiasm. "We Are Not Alone!" and stuff like that.
- After the initial shock, the Space Marines had to repel a massive assault from an international army of media workers and diplomats.
- The UN falls into utter chaos. Everyone wants to do something else with the Space Marines than the others.
- At this point, BBC will have the Chapter Master for an interview. All hell breaks loose when the Chapter Master kinda' tells everything about the IoM and stuff.
- One of the major superpowers (probably Russia, but not the EU) suddenly reveals its ancient ties to the IoM and proclaims the other superpowers as heretics.
- Welcome in Word War 3.
- When the dust settles, the still totally intact Space Marine Chapter (they missed this WW3 thing because the Chapter Master thought that he will claim the last power standing as a loyal fraction) helps rebuild the world on their own image.
- Imperial expedition arrives, Earth joins the herd.
- The End.

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 Vaktathi wrote:
Trying to compare 40k to the modern world doesn't really work, 40k is really a Fantasy universe hamfisted into Space, it works largely because it says it does. No 40k ship would function in real life, certainly not with the crew requirements they have, for things like slave gangs to turn turrets onto targets and other sillyness.

Real world military equipment is far more advanced than what is available to armies in the 41st millenium. Modern tanks can move at highway speeds and hit another tank moving at highway speeds 2km away with an accuracy rate of 90% or greater (with the longest confirmed range tank kill at a distance of over 5 kilometers!). Artillery can put a shell into 3m box from 30 miles away. Modern aircraft can engage each other beyond the horizon from over 100 miles away.


A Space Marine chapter would have to rely on the threat of orbital bombardment with their ships that stop working once the real world is applied to them.

If it comes down to actual planetary fighting, the Space Marines are all dead in an hour through air attacks and artillery bombardments and they'd never see what killed them. 1000 marines aren't going to win against millions of soldiers, tens of thousands of Jets and Helicopters, hundreds of thousands of tanks and an equal number of artillery cannon that the modern world possesses. They couldn't be everywhere they'd need to be, or even 1/10,000th of the places they'd really need to be. And worst comes to worst, there are more than enough nuclear weapons to wipe out any SM landing zones in short order, and enough aircraft to ensure it is impossible to resupply said marines.


On top of that, going by the only actual printed sources we have (Imperial Armour Volume 2) on armor thickness and relative effectiveness, there are WW2 anti-tank guns that will penetrate a Land Raider's thickest armor, with a modern MBT 120mm AP round from a Leo2's L55 gun probably able to penetrate through and through probably 2 lined up Land Raiders and into a third.


Not to mention that SM's really don't have any inbuilt intelligence gathering ability short of SM scouts (not really the greatest thing in the universe) and using psykers to probe people. They wouldn't know where to strike, who to target, who to kidnap, etc.


TL;DR applying 40k to the real world is a bad idea, 40k stops working when realism is applied and the modern world actually has far more advanced equipment.


^ Ahhh...Vaktathi, the refreshing voice of reason! I love the WH40K schtick as much as anybody but I doubt 1000 marines could even take a large, hostile earth city let alone the planet. Any comparison is awkward at best, but my question is what exactly is the goal of such a war? Total annihilation of the enemy? Subjugation of the planet? When you are outnumbered 7 million to one you'd better have your priorities straight.

By the way, HAPPY BIRTHDAY USA!
   
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 TheDraconicLord wrote:
tommse wrote:
A full maned drop pod should deal with the most important targets. Just imagine a pod breaching through the roof of the white house. That alone would stun the whole world for quite some time. Then the huge bulk of the civilian population has no idea how to fight at all and the bulk of modern military is trained in a support role, they barely train to fight either. Some shock attacks at political, military and logistic key points and pretty much everything would collaps.


I think the only reason that scenario is possible is because IMHO if we detected a gigantic ship near our planet the USA President would likely go to a secret bunker together with the top military strategists to coordinate the defense.


And the fact the Marines lack space and air assets, since obviously a single heavy space craft could beat us to pieces simply because we don't have weapons that can hit targets in space.

Looking at the restrictions, I still think the Earth would win since there just isn't a way the Marines can avoid a war of attrition.

This is assuming we don't annihilate ourselves in WW3 before the Marines even take action, of course.

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I have a feeling the OP has no clue of what kinds of assets we have available to us as a species. How many Thunderhawks are we talking? If they have the capability to shoot down ICBM's, there's no possible way they have the ability to shoot down all of em if they were launched at the same time. I think the world would see the Thunderhawks as the greatest threat. Take those out and let the aircraft mop up the marines and tanks. Our A10's alone would absolutely wreak havoc on em.

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 RavenGuard55 wrote:
Our A10's alone would absolutely wreak havoc on em.


I think the Russian/EU/Chinese fighter jets would give those A-10's a run for their money . Or better yet, those same A-10's would come in handy for the Space Marines in the siege of Moscow/Paris/Beijing.

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Elephant Graveyard

The Blood Angels have a total of 36 Thunderhawk Gunships...
Frankly I think we could take them down fairly easily, with total air power we would then be able to hound any SM unless they totally hid from us, even then we would know their approximate location so we could move forces in to find them.

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 amanita wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
Trying to compare 40k to the modern world doesn't really work, 40k is really a Fantasy universe hamfisted into Space, it works largely because it says it does. No 40k ship would function in real life, certainly not with the crew requirements they have, for things like slave gangs to turn turrets onto targets and other sillyness.

Real world military equipment is far more advanced than what is available to armies in the 41st millenium. Modern tanks can move at highway speeds and hit another tank moving at highway speeds 2km away with an accuracy rate of 90% or greater (with the longest confirmed range tank kill at a distance of over 5 kilometers!). Artillery can put a shell into 3m box from 30 miles away. Modern aircraft can engage each other beyond the horizon from over 100 miles away.


A Space Marine chapter would have to rely on the threat of orbital bombardment with their ships that stop working once the real world is applied to them.

If it comes down to actual planetary fighting, the Space Marines are all dead in an hour through air attacks and artillery bombardments and they'd never see what killed them. 1000 marines aren't going to win against millions of soldiers, tens of thousands of Jets and Helicopters, hundreds of thousands of tanks and an equal number of artillery cannon that the modern world possesses. They couldn't be everywhere they'd need to be, or even 1/10,000th of the places they'd really need to be. And worst comes to worst, there are more than enough nuclear weapons to wipe out any SM landing zones in short order, and enough aircraft to ensure it is impossible to resupply said marines.


On top of that, going by the only actual printed sources we have (Imperial Armour Volume 2) on armor thickness and relative effectiveness, there are WW2 anti-tank guns that will penetrate a Land Raider's thickest armor, with a modern MBT 120mm AP round from a Leo2's L55 gun probably able to penetrate through and through probably 2 lined up Land Raiders and into a third.


Not to mention that SM's really don't have any inbuilt intelligence gathering ability short of SM scouts (not really the greatest thing in the universe) and using psykers to probe people. They wouldn't know where to strike, who to target, who to kidnap, etc.


TL;DR applying 40k to the real world is a bad idea, 40k stops working when realism is applied and the modern world actually has far more advanced equipment.


^ Ahhh...Vaktathi, the refreshing voice of reason! I love the WH40K schtick as much as anybody but I doubt 1000 marines could even take a large, hostile earth city let alone the planet. Any comparison is awkward at best, but my question is what exactly is the goal of such a war? Total annihilation of the enemy? Subjugation of the planet? When you are outnumbered 7 million to one you'd better have your priorities straight.

By the way, HAPPY BIRTHDAY USA!


Indeed Happy Birthay US !

But on another note i find it hilarious when people try and talk about the military and have no friggin idea what they are saying and to that Vaktahi i Salute you !

Now as for Thunderhawks and airsupport ,Sure thunderhawks are strong but they are not invincible , if we absolutely had to an A-10 would cut though a Thunderhawks engine compartment relitively easily , Sure the things armored but its engines are not , The Space Marines would lose because they would be forced into a War of Attrition cut the bull gak of : oh they would keep up surgical strikes : it doesnt' happen it can't , as you've taken out the use of a battle Barge they would have no place to relocate to , and thunderhawks can't shoot down Nuclear Warheads and there are multiple deliveray systems as has already been stated , But think about Thermo-Baric Bombs , they are nuclear but are techincally different , Fuel-Air Bombs all can have similar yeilds depending on the size -And ithink about this an Apache Attack Helicopters main Weaponary would be enough to flatten any space marine Vehicle as the 30mm cannon and Hell Fire missiles would be hitting the top armor which is remarkably thin -- Also many nations utilize a Javalin system which has multiple fire modes one as a direct fire the other as in-direct fire ( goes up then comes down ontop of the target ) --Only thing the space marines would have going for them is Terminators ,and with progression into Railgun Technology ( yes we have it look at the Newest US Navy Destroyers and testing grounds at Rammstein ) war would speed of the technology race and in turn we could be pumping out railguns ( more ineffective though ) which i'll be damned if a Terminator can survive the impact of something moving that fast ---


Hats off -

Kasrkin

Motto of the Imperial Guard " If its worth bringing one its worth bringing three"
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Elephant Graveyard

You have an interesting relationship with punctuation...
Are you saying they won't be forced into a War of Attrition?

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"Further proof that Purple is a fething brilliant super villain " -KingCracker
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Railguns are not in a usable status yet, Apaches or A-10 can´t fly as high as Thunderhawks could and the amount of people who are trained to use military aircraft is fairly small and could be get rid off quite fast.
   
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Elephant Graveyard

Missiles can fly as high as thunderhawks...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also the proportion of people in the military is tiny for most countries. On a war footing it would shoot up.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/04 18:44:09


Dakka Bingo! By Ouze
"You are the best at flying things"-Kanluwen
"Further proof that Purple is a fething brilliant super villain " -KingCracker
"Purp.. Im pretty sure I have a gun than can reach you...."-Nicorex
"That's not really an apocalypse. That's just Europe."-Grakmar
"almost as good as winning free cake at the tea drinking contest for an Englishman." -Reds8n
Seal up your lips and give no words but mum.
Equip, Reload. Do violence.
Watch for Gerry. 
   
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Kovnik






Well I guess it´s about time to get invaded to prove my point
   
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Elephant Graveyard

What is your point?

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"You are the best at flying things"-Kanluwen
"Further proof that Purple is a fething brilliant super villain " -KingCracker
"Purp.. Im pretty sure I have a gun than can reach you...."-Nicorex
"That's not really an apocalypse. That's just Europe."-Grakmar
"almost as good as winning free cake at the tea drinking contest for an Englishman." -Reds8n
Seal up your lips and give no words but mum.
Equip, Reload. Do violence.
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Apparently that he believes 36 thunderhawks could completely destroy the airforces of the entire world...

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 AtoMaki wrote:
 RavenGuard55 wrote:
Our A10's alone would absolutely wreak havoc on em.


I think the Russian/EU/Chinese fighter jets would give those A-10's a run for their money . Or better yet, those same A-10's would come in handy for the Space Marines in the siege of Moscow/Paris/Beijing.


Don't forget that Space Marines shooting their basic combat rifle will actually hit super-sonic jets zooming by 1/6 of the time...

What real-world soldier could make that kind of claim to their marksmanship?

   
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 Zweischneid wrote:

Don't forget that Space Marines shooting their basic combat rifle will actually hit super-sonic jets zooming by 1/6 of the time...

What real-world soldier could make that kind of claim to their marksmanship?


Back in the Cold War, it was a viable tactic . But seriously, as part of your basic training, you could witness an instruction tablet that showed you how to hit a jet with your assault rifle (yes, I've seen that tablet)...

And I wonder why people thinks that the world would unite against the Space Marine Chapter. This is actually a far more unbelievable scenario than the showing up of the Space Marines itself. So I don't think that the Space Marines would fight alone - they would have plenty of allies on Earth in the shape of power-hungry and/or opportunistic countries (including all the major powers).

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 AtoMaki wrote:
 RavenGuard55 wrote:
Our A10's alone would absolutely wreak havoc on em.


I think the Russian/EU/Chinese fighter jets would give those A-10's a run for their money . Or better yet, those same A-10's would come in handy for the Space Marines in the siege of Moscow/Paris/Beijing.


Yeah, good luck getting a 9 foot tall human in a modern day cockpit.

Supplies would quickly cripple any SM force as outlined by the OP. Even if techmarines could manage to build something to make new bolter shells, the lack of promethium will shut down all their vehicles shortly. Which eliminates their quick strike and cover support abilities. Even if they are able to teleport to a target, they still have to get away, and I don't think they can teleport back up. Not big into the novels but if they had that capability I would think it would be somewhere in the game.
   
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Rumbleguts wrote:

Yeah, good luck getting a 9 foot tall human in a modern day cockpit.


Those jets are piloted by Russian/Chinese/EU/American pilots of course . Because WW3 is a pretty good option once you have 1000 superhumans with all sorts of ultra-advanced tech on your side.

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 AtoMaki wrote:


And I wonder why people thinks that the world would unite against the Space Marine Chapter. This is actually a far more unbelievable scenario than the showing up of the Space Marines itself. So I don't think that the Space Marines would fight alone - they would have plenty of allies on Earth in the shape of power-hungry and/or opportunistic countries (including all the major powers).


Unite against them, no. Fight individually against them yes, because the Imperium comes across as conquerors, not allies. The EU and Russia and NATO would likely work together if threatened in such a manner as the SM employ. I don't remember the SM being very geared towards propaganda tactics so turning countries against each other would be unlikely but I doubt a lot of other countries would be willing to assist their neighbors just because the SM showed up either.

Its fun theorizing in any event.
   
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AtoMaki wrote:

And I wonder why people thinks that the world would unite against the Space Marine Chapter. This is actually a far more unbelievable scenario than the showing up of the Space Marines itself. So I don't think that the Space Marines would fight alone - they would have plenty of allies on Earth in the shape of power-hungry and/or opportunistic countries (including all the major powers).
You wouldn't need to unit the world really, any major NATO nation would likely be able to handle them on their own *very* quickly, as would most other major world powers like Russia, China, India, etc. There'd really be no reason for anyone to ally with them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/04 20:01:23


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 AtoMaki wrote:
Back in the Cold War, it was a viable tactic . But seriously, as part of your basic training, you could witness an instruction tablet that showed you how to hit a jet with your assault rifle (yes, I've seen that tablet)...


The thing is it's not one man shooting, it's a full company with several dozen assault rifles and 3-4 LMGs. Volume of fire - something might hit and cause damage.
   
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I really hate this question, because inevitably it comes with a few flaws:

Everyone wants to believe in this magical fantasy sci-fi universe being infallibly epic and awesome and able to beat anything.

People believe or excuse the physics behind much of the universe.

People re-hash layman explanations of how marines would win simply because they're "better" without having any idea how a military conflict works.

I've been through these threads before in the past, and very rarely does it not boil down to apologists vs. realists.

Even the OP is really pretty bizarre. Thunderhawks can shoot down ICBM's - despite that they can be launched from any point in the ocean and five different continents (including NATO-loaned warheads) that move at hypersonic speeds? wat?

And the OP simply asked Them vs. Us. Not politics. Not media, not diplomacy, etc. We are to assume it is the world versus the space marines - and it would simply be a massacre.

1,000 marines, no orbital assets. No idea what kidn of equipment or ammo they're bringing - but even if every bullet, every laser, every plasma bloom and warhead hit a target, they wouldn't kill the entire population of any country barring, say, Vatican City.

Furthermore, (realistic) comparisons to modern equipment are horrible. Tank armor, shells, range, design are horrible. How do you expect marines to, say, take care of a B-2 carpet-bombing the area? How do you expect them to deal with mines? Cluster munitions? Marine armor and dreadnought armor can be defeated by laser in fluff - which work through rapidly heating an area - but people are suggesting APFDS rounds - can't beat them? Self-sharpening DU, or molten tungsten/copper wouldn't work where a laser would?

Thermobaric bombs achieve incredibly high temperatures and overpressure. Boom, right there.

I won't count nukes since the OP doesn't want them - and I'll credit the future with making NBC-proof powered armor.

The argument is lost the moment you remind yourself that without resupply from a much, much larger orbital ship, they couldn't defeat a single country due to lack of ammunition.

This is disregarding inferior weapons, inferior logistics, inferior intelligence and communication, and etc.

And people, please, read the OP. None of this "orbital strike", "attacking satellites", "diplomacy", etc. These threads are terrible enough without ignoring the constraints in a given scenario.
   
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 purplefood wrote:
You have an interesting relationship with punctuation...
Are you saying they won't be forced into a War of Attrition?


Sorry just noticed that apologies , i don't get paid for Puntuation i get paid to blow gak up -
I was saying that the Marines lacking orbital assets would be forced into a War of Attrition because their Thunderhawk Support would be shot down in some manner ( Be it Counter Airsupport , hypersonic Cruise Missiles ect. ) they would be stuck on the ground and forced to dig in as fuel would no longer be a readily avaliable commodity

But likes been said over and over it boils down to the simple fact that without orbital assets marines would be butchered in there drop zones while attempting to mobilize by either a mixture of AirStrikes , long Range Artillary and/or Mass Mech Infantry formations

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/05 01:44:56


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Here's two posts by others that I pull out every time this comes up

Imperial Armour books give a much better overview of how marines fight than their codex or novels do. They are all about hit and run, shadow strikes, and sabotage. And they are very, VERY good at it. Their drop pod tech means you have NO defensive lines, you have to protect everything at all times against an enemy impervious to small arms fire. And we can't use most of our big guns in that situation.

The tabletop game only simulates one kind of warfare in 40k, small, up close battles where air superiority has not been achieved and heavy bombardment isn't an option. It isn't the most common type of warfare. You aren't even fighting full on battles, just a small portion of one battle for a short amount of time.

I just can't see us doing well against marines. It's not that I think a chapter could conquer our planet without orbital support, any more than a seal team could conquer the Victorian age British empire, they aren't built for it and don't have the numbers. But WE would be the ones at the receiving end of the guerilla warfare. Just think about it:
* They can launch a full scale assault anywhere on the planet at a moment’s notice with total impunity
* Their basic weapon will take out any of our solders in a single shot
* Our troops have to use AT weaponry on infantry to threaten them
* They can and do use advanced jamming technology, while we have no way to respond in kind
* they can typically be in and out before we can bring heavy weaponry to bear
* they can choose the battlefield at will, and will likely choose battlefields where we can't bring our heaviest weapons to bear anyways.

In an open field, I'll grant you, the marines are screwed. But, again, that is like saying 1800's Britain could beat us because they could take on navy seals in open field combat. It is a fact that in open field combat 5000 Red Coats with cannon support could defeat a special forces team. So the special forces would never fight that way.

And neither would the marines. Look how they act in Siege of Vraks. The IG is conducting siege warfare, the SM occasionally swoop in, perform surgical strikes, and dissapear within a half hour.

They couldn't conquer us, but we couldn't beat them.



Honestly, I think a lot of people here are downplaying how tough Space Marines are supposed to be.

A bullet penetrates armor through sheer velocity; it dumps enough kinetic energy on a small enough space to punch through what it's aimed at. But it's actually pretty simple to prevent that.

Look at a Space Marine model, or pictures of them in the fluff. See how their armor is made? Barrel chest that slopes away to the sides, rounded arms and legs, big round pauldrons. I doubt GW knows much about armor design, but they got that mostly right actually. Those curved plates will shed bullet like raindrops. A curved piece of metal/ceramics/what have you doesn't have to absorb all the kinetic energy of a bullets impact. Instead, it only absorbs part of the energy; enough to deflect the round to the side,, where it continues flying at reduced speed. I think if you opened up on a Space Marine with a .50 cal machine gun you would see a lot of sparks and maybe some surface scarring or cracking on the power armor (depending on the hardness of what it's made of), but you'd have to get quite lucky to actually penetrate the armor and injure him.

This, by the way, is why most modern anti-tank munitions use methods OTHER than kinetic impact to achieve a kill; the armor of a modern tank is designed to ricochet projectiles away rather than absorbing the full force of the impact. If you want to kill a Space Marine, you need to think of him as a tank. Even if you assumed Power Armor was no tougher than modern composites, look at how thick it is; he's WEARING as much armor as a tank!

That being so, the only way to kill him with a pure kinetic projectile would be to either a) use a round so big or fired so fast that it blew through the PA with only a fraction of it's kinetic energy, or b) hit him in one of the non-curved parts of the armor. Now, PA does seem to have quite a few 'bullet traps' in it; a shot that hit one of the eyepieces could do something, the place where the pauldrons meet the chest-plate might be vulnerable, the knee-joints seem somewhat exposed when the Space Marine's legs are bent. But it's an open question how powerful a round you'd need to get one through the armor even in one of those weak spots; I tend to think it would have to be quite powerful, because, well, an M2 is not going to be able to shoot through the armor of an Abrams. . . and I think that's roughly the level of protection PA provides. Perhaps a direct hit on an eyepiece could punch through.

Then you have to contend with the fact that a Space Marine is simply much, much tougher than an ordinary human. Most people, if they took a .50 caliber machine gun round to the shoulder or knee, would be totally disabled or killed outright. A Space Marine? He's not going to go into shock, he's not going to be disabled by the pain, and he's not going to bleed out, so if he's not dead when he hits the ground he's still fighting. Remember, these guys get into drop-pods and are literally FIRED at their target; that alone would shatter every bone in a normal man's body, and Space Marines do it routinely. If you DO get a round through an open knee-joint, you will only slow him down; and it isn't that likely that you will, since while he's a bigger target than a man he's also faster and more agile, with much better reflexes. Not to mention that your fire will likely be somewhat suppressed by the stream of precisely aimed RPG rounds he's firing back at you.

You need to either use heavy, specialized AT weapons, or literally fill the air with high-caliber machine-gun rounds and play the averages. Normal small arms and grenades will do nothing; Anti-materiel rifles might, but only if you hit him in exactly the right spot. A sniper weapon MIGHT, but once again, only if you hit him in precisely the right place, and even once you pass through the armor most of your shots will only wound him. A radar or laser-guided AT missile will most likely kill or seriously injure a Space Marine, but very little short of that has anything like a good chance.







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The space marines would be leaderless very quickly. Heads without helmets don't survive modern war very well. Leaderless troops (covered in the brains of their leaders) typically don't do well either.

When in an M1A2 I have put three SABOT rounds into an area you could cover with a pie plate, at about 1800 meters, a 'bolter' armed trooper that can fire accurately less than a couple hundred yards has no chance.


I know this is fantasy stuff, but honestly 40k concepts just don't translate to effective real world concepts.

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 CptJake wrote:
a 'bolter' armed trooper that can fire accurately less than a couple hundred yards has no chance.


Where are getting this from? The TTG is not to scale (internally and to the real world). Ranges and such are to keep the game manageable on a dining room table or ping pong surface. The BL stuff (look at the Abnett novel SMarines, especially when they show up in the Tanith and in Brothers of the Snake) makes them pretty boss compared to what any of my Marine/SEAL buddies do at the range (and they are flat out impressive, might I add). After tweens and high schoolers, military personnel seem to be the most dominant group of 40k players around me. They think the SM would roll (and I've got some tankers who live in Peoria, IL (ODS vets) in our group too).

DO:70S++G++M+B++I+Pw40k93/f#++D++++A++++/eWD-R++++T(D)DM+
Note: Records since 2010, lists kept current (W-D-L) Blue DP Crusade 126-11-6 Biel-Tan Aspect Waves 2-0-2 Looted Green Horde smash your face in 32-7-8 Broadside/Shield Drone/Kroot blitz goodness 23-3-4 Grey Hunters galore 17-5-5 Khan Bikes Win 63-1-1 Tanith with Pardus Armor 11-0-0 Crimson Tide 59-4-0 Green/Raven/Deathwing 18-0-0 Jumping GK force with Inq. 4-0-0 BTemplars w LRs 7-1-2 IH Legion with Automata 8-0-0 RG Legion w Adepticon medal 6-0-0 Primaris and Little Buddies 7-0-0

QM Templates here, HH army builder app for both v1 and v2
One Page 40k Ruleset for Game Beginners 
   
 
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