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 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The Stormraven is hardly inefficient, it's the Heldrake that's through the roof. I wouldn't say the Stormraven is the best thing ever, but it's completely playable.

Agreed on this. The problem is points cost. If Stormravens were a bit more vulnerable to warrant a points cost under 200, or maybe lost the transport ability, I bet we'd be seeing doubles and triples.

As it stands though, one Stormraven isn't enough to take on three Heldrakes. The problem is outside of the Tau *no* list can effectively take them on without specifically tailoring for it - it's the same with the flying croissants.

I've seen several double Stormraven lists. The problem is that it backfires more than it works. Especially of their transport capacity is actually used. The more I think about the absurdity of the transport capacity itself being a trap more than benefit, the more it rankles me.

Most of my victories against GK have involved the GK having multiple Stormravens. I'm overrunning them on the ground, shooting their fancy guys with meltas, and the Stormravens can't turn the tide like helldrakes. Of course, when GK bring Necron support, I usually lose miserably. Thinking about this, I'm not sure how good pure GK really is. Different topic, though.

Multiple stormraven lists really need to consider the aegis with commlink, which ends up being another tax of sorts and provides even fewer boots on the ground. It looks worse when the guys behind the aegis line die to a podded fragnought on turn 1. Fragnought cares not for the aegis line.

Noticing a lot of people saying that they prefer TwL Lascannon to TwL Assault/Psy Cannon due to its ability to harm AV12 fliers.

This is actually untrue, believe it or not the Psycannon has a 0.79 expected hull points removed and a 6.584% chance to destroy the helldrake in one volley. The assault cannon has the same odds to destroy the drake in one go and has a reduced hull points removed score (0.395)

The Lascannon—interestingly enough—has the EXACT same expected hull points removed score as the assault cannon (0.395) and only a 4.398% chance to destroy the drake in one go.

There is an interesting effect that happens with multi-shot rending weapons. The higher the enemy's AV the more effective they become relative to single shot dedicated anti-tank weapons. Turns out the equilibrium point for assault cannons and lascannons is AV12.

That said, I still think the assault cannon is better for a stormraven because you can get it into range very easily. On foot, the argument is one of 24" range with a versitile gun or a 48" range with a dedicated anti-tank/MC gun. On a flyer, I think the choice is obvious.

Now, if you're playing Grey Knights, the psycannon is just flat better than a lascannon at almost all targets (really low AV vehicles are a bit strange).

Long story short assault cannon and lascannon are equals at killing drakes. Psycannon trumps all.

I don't care about hull points with helldrakes; that is too slow. The table results are what matter. This is what I get:

TL Lascannon: 0.89 (to hit) * 0.5 (to pen) * 0.667 (daemon save) * 0.3333 (to destroy) = 0.10
TL Assault Cannon: two scenarios: 3 hit and 4 hit
3 hit: 0.43 (chance to get one pen) * 0.667 (daemon save) * 0.166 (to destroy) = 0.05
4 hit: 0.52 (chance to get one pen) * 0.667 (daemone save) * 0.166 (to destroy) = 0.06
4 hit case is 0.63 vs 0.37 for three hits. 0.05*.37 + 0.06*.63 = 0.056

I have neglected cases where there are more than one pen from the AC, due to the unlikelihood of this occuring.
This obviously would give it a bit of a boost, but not much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The AC used to be better than the LC before they FAQed the AP 2 off rending for vehicles.

blackarmchair wrote:
Noticing a lot of people saying that they prefer TwL Lascannon to TwL Assault/Psy Cannon due to its ability to harm AV12 fliers.

This is actually untrue, believe it or not the Psycannon has a 0.79 expected hull points removed and a 6.584% chance to destroy the helldrake in one volley. The assault cannon has the same odds to destroy the drake in one go and has a reduced hull points removed score (0.395)

The Lascannon—interestingly enough—has the EXACT same expected hull points removed score as the assault cannon (0.395) and only a 4.398% chance to destroy the drake in one go.

There is an interesting effect that happens with multi-shot rending weapons. The higher the enemy's AV the more effective they become relative to single shot dedicated anti-tank weapons. Turns out the equilibrium point for assault cannons and lascannons is AV12.

That said, I still think the assault cannon is better for a stormraven because you can get it into range very easily. On foot, the argument is one of 24" range with a versitile gun or a 48" range with a dedicated anti-tank/MC gun. On a flyer, I think the choice is obvious.

Now, if you're playing Grey Knights, the psycannon is just flat better than a lascannon at almost all targets (really low AV vehicles are a bit strange).

Long story short assault cannon and lascannon are equals at killing drakes. Psycannon trumps all.

The Lascannon has a 9.87% chance to kill the Heldrake in one go. (((8/9)/2)*2/3)/3 is 0.09876... Remember that neither the Assault Cannon nor the Psycannon is AP2 against vehicles on rends.

Yeah, I guess the psycannon doesn't get anymore pens than a regular AC.

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, I guess the psycannon doesn't get anymore pens than a regular AC.

Didnt think about it but you are right.

Vs armor 12 str 6 rending and str 7 rending pen at the same rate because you need a 6 in either case. It will glance 16% more often before saves but that is not what we are discussing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

First0f0ne wrote:
Gk ravens are a different animal. The missles are not intended for anti armor like the BA one. And psybolts works on the h. Bolters and the ass cannon iirc. Making 6 str 5 tl shots and 4 str7 tl shots. Thats pretty damn ggood imo. The whole anti armor MM + LC no extras thing is a BA only recomendation.

Someone forgot to tell the BA that ST 8 ROF 1 is horrible anti-tank.

No its not good, but when you are shooting a multi melta and a las cannon at a heldrake or vendetta. 2 more ap 2 shots dont hurt.

Ive been know to POTMS my MM at light armor and shoot the lascannon and 2 missiles at something deeper afield. Its only good for transports and light armor for any chance of knocking out 2 things but I'd rather keep the option.

I admit that psycannons do a helluva job against anything other than the helldrake. It's great even against Stormravens. But it regen HPs and it can cripple your list very quickly; time is of the essence with helldrakes.

Many people don't bother to stop and think but 40K can be a game of ugly cascading effects. Even if the thing only kills say 3-4 ASM out of 10 in a BA squad between vector strike and bale flamer, that reduced squad now has no chance against 6 plague marines. None. At that's likely what I need to displace off an objective with CSM. And then, if I didn't kill the thing on my turn, it goes at does it again. Multiply by three helldrakes, and soon your entire list is neutered numbers-wise. They don't need to wipe out squads. They just need to make it so you can't kill plague marines.

Martel732 wrote:
I like the lascannon over the assault cannon. But that's only because its better vs helldrakes.

Its actually the AC that is better against Heldrakes.


TL-assault cannon with psybolt ammo vs AV12 with 5+ invuln

4(1/3)(1/3)(1/3)(2/3)=.79 damage results

TL-lascannon vs AV12 with 5+ invuln

1(1/3)(1/3)(2/3)(2/3)=.39 damage results


Not only does it have a higher chance of causing damage, it also has the possibility of causing more than 1 damage result.

The only thing the lascannon has over the assault cannon is AP2. Range is nothing to a flyer and the assault cannon can also be used against infantry with great effectiveness.

Hey genius, I play BA. I don't have psybolt ammo. And I wasn't talking about stripping HP. Because if you play that game, the helldrake will roast your entire list minus the teqs.

Maybe you don't, but I believe the OP is playing GKs.


Anyway, here is math without psybolts.

4(1/3)(1/3)(1/6)(2/3) = .39 penetrating hits

The same number of damage results, and all are penetrating hits due to rending.

Still superior to the lascannon.

How does the math I posted not hold for psybolt ammo's chance of destroying the helldrake exactly? Or do you actually expect to reduce its HP to 0?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"Ive been know to POTMS my MM at light armor and shoot the lascannon and 2 missiles at something deeper afield. Its only good for transports and light armor for any chance of knocking out 2 things but I'd rather keep the option."

I do that, too. It's about the only legit use of POTMS I can think of. You have to choose whether to shoot the whole bird as skyfire or not, so you can't MM and missile something and then frag teqs on the ground with a plasma cannon. That's why I don't use the plasma cannon.

Unlike the lascannon, an assault cannon does have a chance to pling all the HPs off a Heldrake along with a greater probability of getting an explodes result. AP2 is not enough to tip the balance in the lascannon's favor.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Maybe you don't, but I believe the OP is playing GKs.


Anyway, here is math without psybolts.

4(1/3)(1/3)(1/6)(2/3) = .39 penetrating hits

The same number of damage results, and all are penetrating hits due to rending.

Still superior to the lascannon.

Look at my math above. You are not carrying the math out all the way. Yes, the AC gets more pens, but each one is only half as efficacious at achieving the desired result.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Unlike the lascannon, an assault cannon does have a chance to pling all the HPs off a Heldrake along with a greater probability of getting an explodes result. AP2 is not enough to tip the balance in the lascannon's favor.

Really? Show me the odds on that one, please. 80% of helldrake kills I've seen come from the table, not HP.

You are only focusing on killing the drake in one shot. Which is a bad way of looking at things. You kill things with weight of fire in 6th edition, not single powerful shots.

Your math is also rounding instead of carrying the fractions all the way through.

But yes, the lascannon has a greater chance of exploding the heldrake. It is however still a very small chance. 9.8% vs the roughly 5% chance of the Assault cannon. You are better off stripping hull points with the AC which still has a chance of instantly kill the drake.

Also, keep in mind that a weapon destroyed result will neuter the heldrake almost as good as killing it. Without the flamer, the drake is reduced to only vector striking.



The slight increase in probability for a one shot kill is entirely outweighed by having greater effectiveness vs infantry and more shots.

And plus you have a multimelta anyway to help get that last HP off the drake after the AC is done.

Depend's what chapter, if grey knights, then psybolt ammo, hurricane bolters at strength 5, TL heavy bolters at strength 6, and TL assault cannon at strength 7. Lovely

I don't care about killing infantry. I care about killing helldrakes. That's all I bring it for. Infantry die to bolters or my ASM hitting them in the head.

The odds of getting two "6" results from a single AC volley is less than 11%, because that was assuming all four hit every time.

Fly behind helldrake. Unload 12 strength 5 shots, 6 strength 6 twin linked shots, and 4 strength 7 twin linked rending shots, into rear armour 10. Boom goes the heldrake.

You are bringing a 230 point vehicle just to kill a 170 point one?

And when its done its job its worthless to you.


You have muddled priorities and need to stop looking at things so narrowly. Defeat the enemy army, not a single unit.

There's no way to fly behind the helldrake and get non-turret weapons in arc. That's a trick for the stormtalon. Stormravens are stuck against side/front armor almost for sure.

@Martel732 :

Just a quick question for you : I don't understand why you consider S8 AP1 a bad weapon, but recommand using lascannons...

again AV12, the first one pen on a 5+, but destroy on a 4+. the second one pen on a 4+, but destroy on a 5+. seems like the same probability to me...

You also made me look the rulebook again : IWND is on a 5+ too; If you strip 2 hull points, the Helldrake have a 55% chance to regain at least one, and 11% to regain both.... this last scenario happen at a slightly better rate that trying to one shot it with a lascannon, but it is very rare too.


I add my vote for the assault cannon too, even without psybolt. More shot against infantry, almost as good against vehicules (if not as good...)

Martel732 wrote:
There's no way to fly behind the helldrake and get non-turret weapons in arc. That's a trick for the stormtalon. Stormravens are stuck against side/front armor almost for sure.

Lol, well, I do the impossible then xD Bait the heldrake with something for it to shoot at, that forces it to expose it's butt. Play smart.

If you have to, you can enter hover mode to get the right angle, you still skyfire.

I think you are kinda already set in your mindset, and don't want to hear advice though

IF you purely want something to kill the heldrake, then get 3 psyfleman dread's. 12 twin linked strength 8 shot's a turn will generally knock it down, even without skyfire. Then they can turn on land vehicles or units.

 Grey Templar wrote:
You are bringing a 230 point vehicle just to kill a 170 point one?

And when its done its job its worthless to you.


You have muddled priorities and need to stop looking at things so narrowly. Defeat the enemy army, not a single unit.

Well, against CSM, it's hard not to see things narrowly. It's a very bimodal match up. If helldrakes cause X damage, then you lose. You have to stop the helldrakes from reaching that damage threshold. If you can limit the helldrake damage, then the CSM themselves are often outnumbered/outgunned. Like the Vendetta, I can usually find something to shoot a MM and lascannon at. Like tanks. Or terminators. Or dreadnoughts. Or maulerfiends. You get the idea. I just have a more defined role for my Stormraven.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"If you have to, you can enter hover mode to get the right angle, you still skyfire."

Actually, I have never thought to do that. Skyfire is not tied to zooming, then? You are pretty much sacrificing the raven, but it might be worth it sometimes.

The players I play against know full well not to expose the AV 10 end of the thing until they have me crippled anyway. They aren't taking the bait.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dark Phoenix wrote:
@Martel732 :

Just a quick question for you : I don't understand why you consider S8 AP1 a bad weapon, but recommand using lascannons...

again AV12, the first one pen on a 5+, but destroy on a 4+. the second one pen on a 4+, but destroy on a 5+. seems like the same probability to me...

You also made me look the rulebook again : IWND is on a 5+ too; If you strip 2 hull points, the Helldrake have a 55% chance to regain at least one, and 11% to regain both.... this last scenario happen at a slightly better rate that trying to one shot it with a lascannon, but it is very rare too.


I add my vote for the assault cannon too, even without psybolt. More shot against infantry, almost as good against vehicules (if not as good...)

Well, the missiles you are stuck with. Trust me if I could take a second MM I would in place of the lascannon or AC. The odds in this case for the lascannon and the missiles happen to be identical (the LC is TL, so a bit better), but the lascannon is much better against AV 13 and AV 14 ground targets. That's why I don't like ST 8 AP 1 in general.

Martel732 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
You are bringing a 230 point vehicle just to kill a 170 point one?

And when its done its job its worthless to you.


You have muddled priorities and need to stop looking at things so narrowly. Defeat the enemy army, not a single unit.

Well, against CSM, it's hard not to see things narrowly. It's a very bimodal match up. If helldrakes cause X damage, then you lose. You have to stop the helldrakes from reaching that damage threshold. If you can limit the helldrake damage, then the CSM themselves are often outnumbered/outgunned. Like the Vendetta, I can usually find something to shoot a MM and lascannon at. Like tanks. Or terminators. Or dreadnoughts. Or maulerfiends. You get the idea. I just have a more defined role for my Stormraven.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"If you have to, you can enter hover mode to get the right angle, you still skyfire."

Actually, I have never thought to do that. Skyfire is not tied to zooming, then? You are pretty much sacrificing the raven, but it might be worth it sometimes.

The players I play against know full well not to expose the AV 10 end of the thing until they have me crippled anyway. They aren't taking the bait.

Well, force them to take the bait If you throw your unit's right up at the table edges, the heldrake, will follow them. Next turn, it will be heading for a corner, meaning the only way to stay on the board, is to do a 90 degree turn. Much easier to get a rear shot that way, particularly in hover mode. Yep, you have skyfire even while hovering, and generally, the heldrake will be in your deployment zone, meaning it's less risky for the stormraven, as you will be further away from the enemy's non-flying units. Even while not flying, a 12.12.12 vehicle is still quite tricky to crack, especially when the rest of your army is rushing to get in their face, they will deal with the immediate threat's rather than the raven most times.

I especially like when the heldrake tries to vector strike your storm raven, and next turn, you just whip your raven 180 around, and shoot it in the butt. Look on their face can be priceless

 Evileyes wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
There's no way to fly behind the helldrake and get non-turret weapons in arc. That's a trick for the stormtalon. Stormravens are stuck against side/front armor almost for sure.

Lol, well, I do the impossible then xD Bait the heldrake with something for it to shoot at, that forces it to expose it's butt. Play smart.

If you have to, you can enter hover mode to get the right angle, you still skyfire.

I think you are kinda already set in your mindset, and don't want to hear advice though

IF you purely want something to kill the heldrake, then get 3 psyfleman dread's. 12 twin linked strength 8 shot's a turn will generally knock it down, even without skyfire. Then they can turn on land vehicles or units.

I don't think 12 ST 8 TL non-skyfire shots are very good against the helldrake at all, especially for the price. You're getting what? About 4 hits out of that mess and 2 HPs?

Martel732 wrote:

 Evileyes wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
There's no way to fly behind the helldrake and get non-turret weapons in arc. That's a trick for the stormtalon. Stormravens are stuck against side/front armor almost for sure.

Lol, well, I do the impossible then xD Bait the heldrake with something for it to shoot at, that forces it to expose it's butt. Play smart.

If you have to, you can enter hover mode to get the right angle, you still skyfire.

I think you are kinda already set in your mindset, and don't want to hear advice though

IF you purely want something to kill the heldrake, then get 3 psyfleman dread's. 12 twin linked strength 8 shot's a turn will generally knock it down, even without skyfire. Then they can turn on land vehicles or units.

I don't think 12 ST 8 TL non-skyfire shots are very good against the helldrake at all, especially for the price. You're getting what? About 4 hits out of that mess and 2 HPs?

Well. Yes. And that's damn good against a heldrake, plus, it can pen, and it can blow it up, and with the volume of shot's, it happens more than you would expect. It's one strength less than a lascannon, but you get 12 twin linked shots, rather than 3 with lascannons for instance.

But hey, you are not gonna beleive anything short of a lascannon will do the job, so why not proxy and try it yourself. When it works, we will all be here looking super-smug

 Evileyes wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Evileyes wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
There's no way to fly behind the helldrake and get non-turret weapons in arc. That's a trick for the stormtalon. Stormravens are stuck against side/front armor almost for sure.

Lol, well, I do the impossible then xD Bait the heldrake with something for it to shoot at, that forces it to expose it's butt. Play smart.

If you have to, you can enter hover mode to get the right angle, you still skyfire.

I think you are kinda already set in your mindset, and don't want to hear advice though

IF you purely want something to kill the heldrake, then get 3 psyfleman dread's. 12 twin linked strength 8 shot's a turn will generally knock it down, even without skyfire. Then they can turn on land vehicles or units.

I don't think 12 ST 8 TL non-skyfire shots are very good against the helldrake at all, especially for the price. You're getting what? About 4 hits out of that mess and 2 HPs?

Well. Yes. And that's damn good against a heldrake, plus, it can pen, and it can blow it up, and with the volume of shot's, it happens more than you would expect. It's one strength less than a lascannon, but you get 12 twin linked shots, rather than 3 with lascannons for instance.

But hey, you are not gonna beleive anything short of a lascannon will do the job, so why not proxy and try it yourself. When it works, we will all be here looking super-smug

That's not true at all. Even lascannons aren't particularly great against the thing. The Tau frag these things easily with S7 shots, but the volume they're putting out is higher and its all *skyfire*. TL non-skyfire is around BS 2. It's just hard to get excited about that. Now if you add this on top of the firepower from a Stormraven, then you've got a good shot of stripping all the HP. Of course, BA don't get psyriflemen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Evileyes wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
You are bringing a 230 point vehicle just to kill a 170 point one?

And when its done its job its worthless to you.


You have muddled priorities and need to stop looking at things so narrowly. Defeat the enemy army, not a single unit.

Well, against CSM, it's hard not to see things narrowly. It's a very bimodal match up. If helldrakes cause X damage, then you lose. You have to stop the helldrakes from reaching that damage threshold. If you can limit the helldrake damage, then the CSM themselves are often outnumbered/outgunned. Like the Vendetta, I can usually find something to shoot a MM and lascannon at. Like tanks. Or terminators. Or dreadnoughts. Or maulerfiends. You get the idea. I just have a more defined role for my Stormraven.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"If you have to, you can enter hover mode to get the right angle, you still skyfire."

Actually, I have never thought to do that. Skyfire is not tied to zooming, then? You are pretty much sacrificing the raven, but it might be worth it sometimes.

The players I play against know full well not to expose the AV 10 end of the thing until they have me crippled anyway. They aren't taking the bait.

Well, force them to take the bait If you throw your unit's right up at the table edges, the heldrake, will follow them. Next turn, it will be heading for a corner, meaning the only way to stay on the board, is to do a 90 degree turn. Much easier to get a rear shot that way, particularly in hover mode. Yep, you have skyfire even while hovering, and generally, the heldrake will be in your deployment zone, meaning it's less risky for the stormraven, as you will be further away from the enemy's non-flying units. Even while not flying, a 12.12.12 vehicle is still quite tricky to crack, especially when the rest of your army is rushing to get in their face, they will deal with the immediate threat's rather than the raven most times.

I especially like when the heldrake tries to vector strike your storm raven, and next turn, you just whip your raven 180 around, and shoot it in the butt. Look on their face can be priceless

Not many people I face will try S7 vector strikes on an AV 12 raven.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Given that I honestly had no idea you could skyfire when hovering, I think that probably will tilt my opinion in favor of the AC at this point. I still feel there is a good chance that in doing this, you are sacrificing a more expensive model to kill a cheaper one, but at least I'll get to use its AV 12 rear to some effect, which has been useless for me most games.

You don't have skyfire while hovering, he is mistaken.

At the bottom of pg81 under the hover heading it says "If a flyer is hovering, It is treated exactly like a fast skimmer" bold for emphasis is GWs

Oops. Back to the lascannon, then.