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Hey Dakka Dakka,

Just a bit of rumination on the wonder that are blood ravens, with the high number of librarians and the dark red power armour (which I think thousand sons used to wear prs-heresy Magnus the Red and all that lot) is it the case that they are thousand sons that weren't tainted or is that an Internet myth?

Really interested as I'm starting a raven army and like fluffy fluffiness (also really like the power armour coloration)

What are people's thoughts?

There's no canon, definitive answer. A lot of people look at various hints placed in the various BL novels as "proof", but it's not proof, just vague hints. If you want your BR to be 1KS successors, then go ahead, but someone is as likely to tell you they aren't, really.

Thought it was all none canon, but considering the amount of blood raven stuff done though the game etc. I would have thought that more than hints had started to emerge, if they're not Thousand Son, then could anyone help me with what are the options that are considered plausible?

Might be but no one knows for sure.
GW are not great at hints either...

It is heavily implied they were Thousand Sons who were not on Prospero when the wolves attacked and Magnus moved everyone into the warp.

Like with most of GW's fluff, it will never be 100% confirmed. So its safe to assume that it is true.



What likely happened was that these Thousand Sons heard about what happened and knew they could never show their faces as they were before. So they went into hiding, hating the other Thousand Sons who they view as traitors.

Later, after the Heresy had blown over and the Codex was released, these marines reappeared wearing different colors and calling themselves the Blood Ravens. They also destroyed all records pertaining to themselves and kept the secret from all the new recruits. And so the secret died with the original members, except for whatever fragments were scattered about.

This is likely the secret that Davian Thule refers to when he tells Gabrial Angelos the secret of Aurelia is safe with him. They found out the Blood Ravens were originally Thousand Sons, and destroyed that information.

There's some "evidence" connecting the Blood Raven to the 1KS. But, it's important to understand that it's circumstantial evidence at best.

Given that fact, the ambiguity leaves room for the players and/or future game designers to fill that hole... or not.

It could be any Chapter you want as their Founder. 10,000 years is a really, really, really long time. Long enough for their attitudes and tactical doctrine to change significantly, becoming utterly unrecognizable by their parent Chapter.

Hell, make them a Pre-Heresy Space Wolves successor for all I care (Hint: Don't really do this).

One of the Thousand Sons that stayed loyalist (so far) uses the Blood Ravens' quote and has a name suspiciously similar to one of the Blood Raven's most reknowned chapter masters or something. Clearly the BL writer who wrote that did it on purpose.

That said, there's no official canon designation. Just probably a bunch of BL writers who like to throw hints that it is true, and a few others who apparently hate the idea (someone on these forums said Aaron said he did in an interview or something? Oreo)

I'd say yes, but the only cause for doubt I have is that weren't the TS reknowned for the relatively high levels of mutation among recruits, if so, why don't the Blood Ravens have this trait as well?

The Blood Ravens have a hankering for ancient knowledge and seeking out artifacts, particularly those of a psychic nature. I believe they also have a higher concentration of Librarians than most Chapters.

This led to some people hypothesizing a link between them and the similarly sorcerous Thousand Sons - but the likelihood of there being enough Thousand Sons that weren't around during the attack on Prospero to start a new Chapter with and have it not widely known is small (widely known to us players, mind, not to fictional characters in the setting what with the Inquisition etc). Bear in mind we already know of a few loyal Marines from the other Traitor Legions that didn't get to start anew. While I hear that this potential link has been explored in some of the Black Library books, it certainly hasn't been explored at all in the games, where they first appeared, and where they are shown as their creator - Relic Entertainment - intended. So I personally think the chance of a link is pretty damn unlikely.

That all said. If you want YOUR Blood Ravens to be Thousand Sons descendants, who the hell am I to say no...?

The Thousand Sons were being ravaged by mutation, but not on their recruits.

The chapter also had a larger than average number of psychic members(due to recruiting from Prospero)

The Blood Ravens also have a higher than normal number of Librarians, and their Chapter Master has also often also been the Chief Librarian(such as the traitor Kiras)

The games themselves do quite heavily hint that they're from a traitor Legion. In Dark Crusade, Eliphas implies that the BRs are descended from traitors.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMc5dCC41Ss

And Thule of course goes on destroy evidence of some some dark secret about the Blood Ravens. So since the games are hinting that they have origins in a traitor Legion. Going from that, the Thousand Sons are of course the best fit for their parent Legion (again taking ingame stuff, "information is power", ect.).

But of course, like a lot of 40K fluff, it's deliberately ambiguous, so draw your own conclusion. You're technically not incorrect either way.

Hmm... interesting. Thanks Troike, I'd missed that. Isn't Eliphas Black Legion through and through, though...?

 Super Ready wrote:
Hmm... interesting. Thanks Troike, I'd missed that. Isn't Eliphas Black Legion through and through, though...?

Nope. He's actually a Word Bearer. At some point after he loses in Dark Crusade, Abaddon recruits him into the Black Legion.

 Super Ready wrote:
- but the likelihood of there being enough Thousand Sons that weren't around during the attack on Prospero to start a new Chapter with and have it not widely known is small (widely known to us players, mind, not to fictional characters in the setting what with the Inquisition etc).

A big chunk of the Thousands Sons fleet was away from Prospero when it was burned and was completely unaware that Magnus even turned traitor. We don't know how many Marines were there in total, but it wouldn't be out of the question at all that there were at least a thousand or so (enough to make a chapter) since it was... well, a chunk of the fleet. We know that at least some of them decided to remain loyal too. Including this guy.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Revuel_Arvida

It also makes no sense that EVERY Thousand Son was at Prospero (besides the ones in that fleet that are confirmed to have been away) when it was sieged, and fortunately BL writers seem to know this. Battle for the Abyss has a Thousand Sons marine who was instead off elsewhere and also unaware that his Legion turned traitor, and was rather confused when a traitor Word Bearer started screaming and shouting at him for helping loyalist In the end, he decided to stay with the Loyalists (although he didn't have much time to think his decision fully or learn all the details before he got killed)

 Super Ready wrote:
The Blood Ravens have a hankering for ancient knowledge and seeking out artifacts, particularly those of a psychic nature. I believe they also have a higher concentration of Librarians than most Chapters.

This led to some people hypothesizing a link between them and the similarly sorcerous Thousand Sons - but the likelihood of there being enough Thousand Sons that weren't around during the attack on Prospero to start a new Chapter with and have it not widely known is small (widely known to us players, mind, not to fictional characters in the setting what with the Inquisition etc). Bear in mind we already know of a few loyal Marines from the other Traitor Legions that didn't get to start anew. While I hear that this potential link has been explored in some of the Black Library books, it certainly hasn't been explored at all in the games, where they first appeared, and where they are shown as their creator - Relic Entertainment - intended. So I personally think the chance of a link is pretty damn unlikely.

That all said. If you want YOUR Blood Ravens to be Thousand Sons descendants, who the hell am I to say no...?

Given the sheer size of the Legions, the likelihood that they were ALL in one place is beyond small... it's almost unthinkable. Even the comparatively small Salamanders were known to operate in multiple theaters simultaneously during the Great Crusade. Given that the HH jumped off while the GC was still going on (albeit thought to be in the wrap up phase), it's almost guaranteed that some Thousand Sons were elsewhere. Likely operating at least at Great Company/Chapter strength. Meaning that at the time the Codex went into effect, there would have been enough to establish at the very least the beginnings of a new Chapter. Whether that's the Blood Ravens or not is certainly up for debate until it's stated overtly by someone with authority to create canon. I, personally, believe there are too many similarities between the Blood Ravens an the 1KS for them not to be a successor of that legion.

My only concern spawned from this issue is where there weren't more successor chapters of the traitor legions comprised of those that remained loyal. We know each traitor legion had at least some Astartes that stayed loyal - some of which even went on to form the first of the Grey Knights. My question has always been why there weren't more traitor legion Astartes remaining loyal. I understand the extreme loyalty to each legion's respective primarch, but wasn't the loyalty to the Emperor above even that? I suppose that's another issue for debate, but this conversation has always raised this confusion within me.

I'm sure I remember the book Prospero Burns as having a section of text (a vision?) where the person is seeing the image of a black bird (a raven) with a tear of blood and "children" who don't know where they're from


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This would hint but not state outright that they are in fact their descendants.

I can't remember which book it was (hopefully someone can enlighten me - possibly one of the DOW books maybe?) but there was a blood ravens librarian who forgot who he was and I think he met a 1K sons sorcerer who called him brother. Its a bit tenous for me, but I've seen people use this to claim the blood ravens are descended from the 1k sons too.

 Traejun wrote:

My only concern spawned from this issue is where there weren't more successor chapters of the traitor legions comprised of those that remained loyal. We know each traitor legion had at least some Astartes that stayed loyal - some of which even went on to form the first of the Grey Knights. My question has always been why there weren't more traitor legion Astartes remaining loyal. I understand the extreme loyalty to each legion's respective primarch, but wasn't the loyalty to the Emperor above even that? I suppose that's another issue for debate, but this conversation has always raised this confusion within me.

It's possible that there are others, but they would presumably been kept a secret. I suppose despite the fact that the guy recorded in history as "The Hero of Ishtvan" was a Death Guard member, it still seems canonically taboo for a Space Marine chapter to be related to a traitor primarch. Guess the honor stain beats out the obvious (and I believe, widely publically known) fact that some members of the traitor legions were heros.

At any rate, the Sons of Antaeus are actually canonically suspected of being created from Death Guard geneseed, the Minotaurs have a lot of similarity to the world eaters, and the Red Scorpions have some to the Emperor's children. All three of these canonically have their primarchs unknown, so presumably the writers purposefully want you to consider that maybe they're descended from traitor primarchs (without explicitlymaking it canon)

....though Blood Ravens are the only suspect chapter so far that could canonically POSSIBLY be a second founding chapter. The three chapters above all came from the cursed founding. ....peh.

Of the traitor legions, the Thousand Sons probably had the biggest proportion of soldiers that LIVED to stayed loyal, if only because most of them didn't even KNOW they were supposed to be traitors in the first place given how sudden it was (all the other traitor legions at least had the writing on the wall in advance, and thus the primarchs could systematically purge them over time, and then try to get as much of the remaining ones as they could at Ishtvan). There's already been several Thousand Sons who were dumbstruck at the news (that one in Abyss, one of the main characters in The Outcast Dead, Arvida in that short story I linked above, etc). Though there's been a few other legion members also shown to have been caught off guard by it (like the rest of the Outcast Dead. The Luna Wolf Severen actually doing the logical expected reaction of seeking to angrily demand to Horus if it was true and ask Horus to explain himself), and of course, Dantioch of the Iron Warriors as well as his entire garrison also was basically told by an arriving Iron Warrior fleet "Yo, we're traitors now. So let us resupply here!" out of the blue. Hell, considering that the Horus Heresy was kept a secret until the last moment, it'd be wrong not to assume at least a few traitors stayed loyalist out of the sheer insult of being left out of the loop. (although I didn't read Battle for the Abyss, I'm under the impression that the Loyalist World Eaters there that were left out of the loop stayed loyalists only because they happened to be on the loyalists' side when the firing started)

Interesting thing on the red scorpions and minotors etc. did the cursed founding include geenseed from the traitor legions?

I think Iike the idea of loyalist marines from the traitor legions, as you say the old pre codex legions were massive, 250000 ultramarines etc. so you would have thought that enough marines would stay loyal, yet not want it known their geenseed was linked with those that had fallen to chaos and abandoned the emperor.

If the rumours on a new codex are true, I hope we get some more fluff on things like this, although not holding out

I suppose whatever the situation the choices are they come from loyalist unnamed, lost primarch or traitor primarch, if they have such a dark past the last of these possibilities, to me, makes the most sense?

But if they're not then are there other fluffable back stories have been thought of?

 Binks wrote:
Interesting thing on the red scorpions and minotors etc. did the cursed founding include geenseed from the traitor legions?

The Sons of Antaeus are from the cursed founding and in-universe, some destractors of them point out that their resilience is suspiciously similar to the Death Guard (IE, they're basically accusing them of being descended from Death Guard without flat out saying it directly).

Of course, that's just in-universe speculation, but it does show that, in-universe, there are several people who believe that the traitor legion gene seed was used during the cursed founding. Which means the idea can't be very far-fetched or else people in-universe wouldn't bother pointing it out in the first place.

Red Scorpions likewise in-universe aren't trusted because they keep their origins a secret. Unlike the Sons of Antaeus, neither the Scorpions nor the Minotaurs were stated in-universe to have been specifically suspected of being descended from traitor gene seed (though again, at the very least, people are suspicious of them in general for their unknown origins) although there are a LOT of traits that would imply as such. Red Scorpions are practically a repeat of the pre-fall Emperor's Children when it comes to their obsession with purity, and Minotaurs with their beserk tendencies, obsession for close combat, and their love of seeking out worthy opponents are basically pre-fall World Eaters without butcher nails (or maybe pre-fall War Hounds. World Eaters were called the War Hounds before Angron came along and they got all those butcher nails implanted) before they got "revamped (or replaced)" by the High Lords to be more controllable (Now they're basically pre-fall World Eaters that listen to the High Lord's orders. ...actually, they're more similar to War Hounds than ever now, right down to being the hounds of the High Lords).

The Imperium (and presumably GW) will probably never admit that a chapter is descended from a traitor legion, but GW is definitely purposefully pointing out the possibility exists, at least.

The problem is GW hints at a lot of things without saying it directly.

In these cases and the Blood Raven's case, I think it's pretty obvious that the purpose is to point out that it's possible they're traitor gene seed, and then allow you to choose whether or not they really are based on what you want for your head cannon.

That's why anyone who tries to argue that the Blood Ravens can not be 1k Sons gene seed are in the wrong, IMHO. GW has made it ridiculously obvious the possibility exists (to the point where it almost falls under "If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck..." levels of obviousness in some cases) so at the very LEAST, you're supposed to have the option of deciding if they really are 1k Sons or not. (it's arguable that it's even more than that, but at the very least, the possibility is clearly meant to be there and in your face)

Yeah but in 40k.
If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, flies, smells and tastes like a duck. It's an Alpha Legionnaire.

The most likely choice is Thousand Sons. Close second traitor legion are the Word Bearers, given Eliphas's continued interest in them. And that they hail from Subsector AURELIA.
Lorgar the Aurelian?

It's also entirely possible they are Ultramarine successors...

 purplefood wrote:
It's also entirely possible they are Ultramarine successors...

But that's boring.

At their inception they were successors to the Raven Guard/Blood Angels. However that then changed to Ultramarines, before settling for the unconfirmed founders. From the weight of fluff hinting at it they're Thousand Sons successors. This is probably objectionable to people that are serious about their fluff, but then again you really shouldn't be treating GW's background material at all as though its written in stone.

 Traejun wrote:


My only concern spawned from this issue is where there weren't more successor chapters of the traitor legions comprised of those that remained loyal. We know each traitor legion had at least some Astartes that stayed loyal - some of which even went on to form the first of the Grey Knights. My question has always been why there weren't more traitor legion Astartes remaining loyal. I understand the extreme loyalty to each legion's respective primarch, but wasn't the loyalty to the Emperor above even that? I suppose that's another issue for debate, but this conversation has always raised this confusion within me.

Isn't it entirely possible that some of the loyalist legions also went traitor?

 Arcsquad12 wrote:

 purplefood wrote:
It's also entirely possible they are Ultramarine successors...

But that's boring.

Is it?
A good chapter is like making a good character.
Making your character a super special snowflake doesn't make it interesting. It makes it silly most of the time. Just making the Blood Ravens from a traitor legion makes them silly.
If they were Ultramarine successors they'd be kind interesting because they have deviated from the codex norm and they have a character of their own as opposed to be 'I'm special because I'm a traitor but really I'm good'
I mean, even if they are from a traitor geneseed, who cares? What would it change about them? No one else in the Imperium knows and at this point no one else is going to know so really... who cares?

Example - If you have ever played an RPG there's always someone who wants to be a half-elf, half dragon half something else in an attempt to make an otherwise tedious character interesting.