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Though the various anti-psychic wards and defenses don't change the use or effects of Faith Powers, so I'm inclined to believe that it isn't the Emperor's Psychic might at all.

And the reason it defies definition and explanation is because it is faith. Faith denies proof.

I have it on good authority that "proof" gets you burned as a heretic, too.

Veteran Sergeant probably has the right of it.

There's no adequately-explained reason for their being, they just are.

How would one "adequately describe" an ability that defies objective, adequate description? The presence, or lack thereof, of the God-Emperor as anything more than a possible corpse on a fancy chair is a theme to the setting. It is not defined, one way or the other, if there really *is* a God-Emperor, only that trillions upon trillions of human beings believe that there is.

So we are left with a faction that is able to perform "seemingly miraculous" feats by means that the uninitiated are unable to explain. It may be that they have a god-like being watching over them. It may be that it has a perfectly reasonable explanation that the average Imperial citizen simply doesn't understand (adrenaline, willpower and training). It may be that their kung-fu is simply that much better than yours is.

 Psienesis wrote:
It may be that they have a god-like being watching over them. It may be that it has a perfectly reasonable explanation that the average Imperial citizen simply doesn't understand (adrenaline, willpower and training). It may be that their kung-fu is simply that much better than yours is.

Space Marine PA contains whole apothecaries worth of drugs to keep the marine working, I'm sure the SoB version has a few well-chosen drugs too. And they are fanatics, willing to not only die for the Emperor but also live for the Emperor. Where a normal soldier (or even a marine) would decide that an injury is so bad that life after it is worthless a Sister will just see it as one more form of service. Humility is one of the things they learn - even the smallest service can be a great help. Even a grievously crippled Sister will hold on much harder than a normal man or marine, simply because she knows she can be of service in some way even without all limbs. Others hope to die in battle for the Emperor, the Sisters hope they can continue serving long after.

Ok, in 40k miracles and psychic powers are very similar. Booth are based on a simple thing: reflections of conscient will on the warp, capable of alter reality. The only big diference is method: orks do it trough rage and bloodfury (who some gifted

individuals can even channel in destructive ways), eldars do it trough words and runes. Sisters do it trough faith in the emperor. It only dont work as psychic powers because the sisters themselves dont believe it to be psychic powers, but in "basics", they are just warp energy entering the physical words manipulated by conscient will...

That is just my opinion, but i still think that the emperor itself have something to do with it, maybe cause he is ascending to godhood.

They aren't psychic powers because they are specifically stated by GW to not be psychic powers.

It's weird like that-- it's like no female space marines, it's one of the tenets that very clearly defines what one aspect of the Sisters faction is. Just like no female space marines defines the space marines as being all-male.

In a fiction that is constantly on-going, sometimes it's good to have some things that are either unexplained or poorly explained. In this case, we know basically that Acts of Faith are not psychic powers, and that they are "miraculous to the unschooled". Very little else is known about them. Some of them may very well be "miracles", whatever that is-- GW itself doesn't really explain it very well, there's no science behind it... because, well ,it's a miracle, by its nature it defies explanation. Some of them could simply be feats of martial prowess that would impress even an Astartes. Some of them could simply be plain dumb luck. Others could be sheer, pig-headed determination and fanaticism in the face of danger that somehow manages to succeed where any other would give up hope and die.

We only really know what they aren't; that is, they aren't psychic powers, nor are they effected by anti-psyker measures.

 Psienesis wrote:
And the reason it defies definition and explanation is because it is faith. Faith denies proof.

It doesn't exactly defy explanation. It's either their state of mind driving their bodies to superhuman feats (which their codexes seem to suggest) or them somehow tapping into the warp and getting boons via that (possibly even from Big E himself).

 Fezman wrote:
I kind of think of it as psychic powers by proxy. If the Emperor's mind is still active in the Warp, my theory is that they are not consciously using psychic power themselves, but rather channeling a tiny portion of his psychic strength.

It's possible. Again, part of him is in the warp, and the Eldar are worried he could become a fifth Chaos god. if so, you could interpret Acts of Faith or Living Saints in the same way as Chaos Gods giving their followers beneficial mutations or Daemonhood.

Not that this theory is much more than speculation, mind you, but it is an interesting concept nonetheless.

 Lynata wrote:
The Living Saint Celestine, on the other hand, is something I regard as a different and independent phenomenon, which could be explained by a number of options. For example, Celestine could be a minor Warp entity born of the collective outbursts of emotion of the faithful during an Imperial crusade (as the Warp is inherently neutral, and Slaanesh serves as a precedent of a being created through feelings),

Could that happen? Celestine was a regular human before her transformation, so she's not exactly a minor warp entity that's come out of nowhere. Is it possible that the warp would be able to empower her from a mortal to her current state, I wonder?

Troike wrote:It doesn't exactly defy explanation. It's either their state of mind driving their bodies to superhuman feats (which their codexes seem to suggest) or them somehow tapping into the warp and getting boons via that (possibly even from Big E himself).

Indeed. It's really not very hard to come up with rational possible explanations - we have had enough "miracles" on our real world as well, after all.

Conversely, of course it can also by psychic stunts or the Emperor somehow being the one and only known being that commands an entirely different form of power (divine magic, rather than the Warp phenomena of the Chaos "Gods"). It really depends on what sources one is looking at, for they certainly offer conflicting information. If one really just doesn't want to see the Sisters as being that badass, then it is simple to just accredit their abilities to some higher power regardless of what the GW studio designers themselves have written. This is one of the liberties in this franchise, after all. Myself, I don't care what Black Library's HH novels or FFG's RPG say either, for example. We all follow our own interpretation, depending on our personal preferences and how we've grown to like the setting.

Troike wrote:Could that happen? Celestine was a regular human before her transformation, so she's not exactly a minor warp entity that's come out of nowhere. Is it possible that the warp would be able to empower her from a mortal to her current state, I wonder?

That's part of my theory, actually. In essence, I see Celestine as a possessed being.
I have discussed my own pet theory further in this thread, in case you'd like to hear more about my thoughts on the subject. To me, it's the most convenient way to make her fit in with the un-supernatural nature of the Sisters' abilities in the Codex fluff (though I have earlier offered other possibilities that could solve the issue just as much).

 Troike wrote:

Actually, this reminds me of a point I wanted to raise but forgot to in my previous post. The existence of Celestine and her status as a clearly supernatural being do lend a little weight to the Emperor having a hand in the Acts of Faith. But again, it's unclear. And the codexes do seem to lean towards Acts not being supernatural and merely a case of the extreme belief of the Sisters pushing them to superhuman feats.

Celestine is not any more 'clearly supernatural' than Yarrick is. She is merely a part of an organisation that is likely to describe such things as 'miracles' instead of luck and bad-assery.

 Crimson wrote:

 Troike wrote:

Actually, this reminds me of a point I wanted to raise but forgot to in my previous post. The existence of Celestine and her status as a clearly supernatural being do lend a little weight to the Emperor having a hand in the Acts of Faith. But again, it's unclear. And the codexes do seem to lean towards Acts not being supernatural and merely a case of the extreme belief of the Sisters pushing them to superhuman feats.

Celestine is not any more 'clearly supernatural' than Yarrick is. She is merely a part of an organisation that is likely to describe such things as 'miracles' instead of luck and bad-assery.

She shows up out of nowhere at desperate battles and then disappears without a trace. On top of that, she gained wings and we can witness her ability to constantly revive as a tabletop mechanic. You can hardly just explain that as "luck".

 Troike wrote:

She shows up out of nowhere at desperate battles and then disappears without a trace. On top of that, she gained wings and we can witness her ability to constantly revive as a tabletop mechanic. You can hardly just explain that as "luck".

Comings and goings of a single person is hard to track. And of course there's only one recorded instance where she 'appears mysteriously.' That was at Heletine and during that time she was believed to be dead, so naturally no one expected her to show up. During Palatine crusade (when she was already a Living Saint) she lead the crusade and presumably hung around with her fellow sisters like a regular person, without any mysterious appearances and disappearances. There's one piece of artwork where she has wings, the model doesn't have them, I'd chalk that up to artistic interpretation. Yarrick 'resurrects' too, but no one assumes him to be possessed by Necrons or something. And of course any of this can be just propaganda.

 Crimson wrote:
Comings and goings of a single person is hard to track. And of course there's only one recorded instance where she 'appears mysteriously.'

Nope. The latest Codex specifically states that she "appears in times of great need".

 Crimson wrote:
That was at Heletine and during that time she was believed to be dead, so naturally no one expected her to show up. During Palatine crusade (when she was already a Living Saint) she lead the crusade and presumably hung around with her fellow sisters like a regular person, without any mysterious appearances and disappearances.

I don't see your point. That was one crusade, but she shows up in subsequent battles from out of nowehre.

 Crimson wrote:
There's one piece of artwork where she has wings, the model doesn't have them, I'd chalk that up to artistic interpretation.

Fair point. Been playing Soulstorm a lot recently. Clearly Saint Anias has influenced my mental image of Living Saints. Celestine's model is floating, though.

 Crimson wrote:
Yarrick 'resurrects' too, but no one assumes him to be possessed by Necrons or something. And of course any of this can be just propaganda.

Is it a tabletop mechanic for him? Does his fluff have him returning to life "miraculously" every time he falls in combat or is dealt a "mortal blow"?

 Troike wrote:

Nope. The latest Codex specifically states that she "appears in times of great need".

So do Lucky Luke and Batman. That's pretty vague.

Fair point. Been playing Soulstorm a lot recently. Clearly Saint Anias has influenced my mental image of Living Saints. Celestine's model is floating, though.

I just assumed that odd cherub-cloak contraption is a weird archaic jump pack.

Is it a tabletop mechanic for him?

Yes.

Does his fluff have him returning to life "miraculously" every time he falls in combat or is dealt a "mortal blow"?

I think his fluff is that he is a tough old geezer that just refuses to die. But that doesn't mean that the phenomenon in itself is different, merely that Sisters are more likely to explain such things as divine intervention.

I'm not saying that there cannot be anything supernatural about Celestine, merely that it is entirely possible interpretation that there isn't. (Hell, it could even mean that Yarrick is similarly 'possessed' or 'imbued with divine' as Celestine, he just doesn't recognise it.)

 Crimson wrote:
So do Lucky Luke and Batman. That's pretty vague.

It's not vague at all, it clearly states that she appears in times of great need, which would mean desperate battles. Also, Lucky Luke and Batman did not perform this feat across multiple planets.

 Crimson wrote:
I just assumed that odd cherub-cloak contraption is a weird archaic jump pack.

There's nothing jump pack-like on the model's back, just a cloak. Likewise, there's no fluff suggesting that she's using a jump pack.

Unless those are some fething strong Cherubs and a very sturdy cloak, we can assume that she's floating.

 Crimson wrote:
Yes.

Could you explain the mechanic a little? I hadn't heard of this before. How does it differ from Celestine's rule?

 Crimson wrote:
I think his fluff is that he is a tough old geezer that just refuses to die. But that doesn't mean that the phenomenon in itself is different, merely that Sisters are more likely to explain such things as divine intervention.

Celestine's fluff in the new SoB codex isn't really written from a Sororitas viewpoint, though. It's just a general overview of her. Apart from the bit at the end about her only dying when the Emperor wills it, probably.

 Crimson wrote:
I'm not saying that there cannot be anything supernatural about Celestine, merely that it is entirely possible interpretation that there isn't. (Hell, it could even mean that Yarrick is similarly 'possessed' or 'imbued with divine' as Celestine, he just doesn't recognise it.)

Fair point, but I'd say that the evidence storngly points toward her being some sort of supernatural being, or at least being powered by a supernatural force (most likely warp-related). Also, I thought Yarrick was explained by the Orks believing that he is tough and unkillable, and him therefore becoming this because of the way the Orks work? Not sure if that's canon or not, but it's a plausible theory.

 Troike wrote:

It's not vague at all, it clearly states that she appears in times of great need, which would mean desperate battles. Also, Lucky Luke and Batman did not perform this feat across multiple planets.

Yes, 'appears in times of great need' not 'mysteriously pops out of nowhere.' Se can just wander around the galaxy like a knight errant, hitchhiking on Imperial ships.

 Crimson wrote:
Yes, 'appears in times of great need' not 'mysteriously pops out of nowhere.' Se can just wander around the galaxy like a knight errant, hitchhiking on Imperial ships.

Don't you think that those ships might notice the woman in golden armour and a big sword and say something about it? Again, nothing in the fluff to suggest that she does this, so there's no real basis for it. Also, that wouldn't explain how she can show up exactly when she needs to and can then suddenly disappear. She would need to forsee the right ship to get on in order to show up in time at the next desperate battle, and then have a nearby ship she can quickly hitchhike on to escpae without anybody noticing.

 Crimson wrote:
She has Jump Pack in her wargear. Presumably there's some sort of an antigrav device.

That wargear is likely there to represent her ability to fly. That way people can instantly grasp that she has the ability to fly around the battlefield.

 Crimson wrote:
Yarrick 'resurrects' on 3+ but if you fail you don't get to roll again. Slightly different that Celestine's rule, but they were written in different times by different people, so that doesn't mean much.

Which would suggest the possibility of permanent death on his part, whilst Celestine can continually roll to come back to life. Also, pretty sure that Celestine's rule still allowed her to roll continously when Yarrick's rule was written.

 Crimson wrote:
There is never completely neutral fluff in 40K.

But there's nothing to suggest that it's biased. Even if it is, the fact that it was related by Sororitas witnesses wouldn't reduce the factuality of her ability to suddenly appear when needed and ro get up after mortal blows.

 Crimson wrote:
I don't think there's definite explanation for Yearrick and there's not one for Celestine either, and that's how I prefer it. Ambiguity is one of the great strengths of 40K fluff. Sisters might be shining champions blessed and empowered by a mighty warp-god, or they could be crazed lunatics worshipping a propaganda myth and a rotting corpse.

While Celestine's source of power is indeed ambious, her abilities are not. The fluff about them seems pretty tight, and again, we ourselves can see it in play on the tabletop.

 Troike wrote:

Don't you think that those ships might notice the woman in golden armour and a big sword and say something about it? Again, nothing in the fluff to suggest that she does this, so there's no real basis for it. Also, that wouldn't explain how she can show up exactly when she needs to and can then suddenly disappear. She would need to forsee the right ship to get on in order to show up in time at the next desperate battle, and then have a nearby ship she can quickly hitchhike on to escpae without anybody noticing.

She doesn't need to appear and disappear without anyone noticing! You just assume she appears mysteriously without no one knowing where she came from, but the text doesn't actually say that. (also, she presumably doesn't wear her armour outside the combat, so most people probably wouldn't recognise her without it.)

She probably hears rumour of trouble brewing somewhere and heads there. Occasionally she just stumbles into a situation where she is needed. And of course there's a confirmation bias here. Everyone remembers those few battles she appeared to help, yet there was about three billion battles where she didn't!

That wargear is likely there to represent her ability to fly. That way people can instantly grasp that she has the ability to fly around the battlefield.

Yet, Tyranids with wings do not have 'jump packs' in their wargear (they have wings) even though they move as jump infantry. I'm sure there are other examples of things that move as jump infantry but do not have actual jump packs.

Which would suggest the possibility of permanent death on his part, whilst Celestine can continually roll to come back to life. Also, pretty sure that Celestine's rule still allowed her to roll continously when Yarrick's rule was written.

Both characters can get up even if instakilled by battlecannon. If you take that as face value instead of just peculiarities of game mechanics there has to be something weird going on in both cases. Or it can just be narrative immunity rather than supernatural one.

But there's nothing to suggest that it's biased.

Yes there is, it's 40K fluff.

Even if it is, the fact that it was related by Sororitas witnesses wouldn't reduce the factuality of her ability to suddenly appear when needed and ro get up after mortal blows.

Yes, she appears (ie. arrives from somewhere.) And she gets up (presumably in the midst of confusing battle) after suffering some wound that may or may not have been serious. There does not need to be anything supernatural going on. (even though there could be.)

While Celestine's source of power is indeed ambious, her abilities are not. The fluff about them seems pretty tight, and again, we ourselves can see it in play on the tabletop.

Fluff is vague at best and I would not directly equate tabletop mechanics to the fluff. I don't for example think that Marneus Calgar has any physical or supernatural quality that allows him to survive four direct lascannon hits, his Eternal Warrior is just a narrative conceit.

 Troike wrote:

Fair point, but I'd say that the evidence storngly points toward her being some sort of supernatural being, or at least being powered by a supernatural force (most likely warp-related). Also, I thought Yarrick was explained by the Orks believing that he is tough and unkillable, and him therefore becoming this because of the way the Orks work? Not sure if that's canon or not, but it's a plausible theory.

Officially there's no explanation for why Yarrick gets up despite dying on the table top, I think. However, if I recall correctly he only does it when fighting against Orks. In addition to this, games workshop's paintings of him for the miniature whenever they show it off always gives him an unnatural green tint. So it's pretty clear that someone at Games workshop at least subtlely wants players to consider the possibility, I think.

I'm with Crimson on this one in that it is at least a viable option to explain the Living Saint. It's not the one that I am personally running with, but it deserves to be mentioned (which I even did in an earlier post in this thread).

As for the fluff itself ...

"Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths."
- Marc Gascoigne, Head Editor BL

This is why I believe the Sisters' abilities are regarded as supernatural by the majority of readers/gamers - simply because the texts even in the Codex fluff itself strongly suggest it. It is just one or two sentences in the book, for example, that go beyond this "hyped legend" and undermine it by proposing it's merely superstition and misinterpretation, which I personally regard as the truth shining through the veil of mystified propaganda, and which is easy to miss if you're just skimming the fluff.

 Crimson wrote:

She doesn't need to appear and disappear without anyone noticing! You just assume she appears mysteriously without no one knowing where she came from, but the text doesn't actually say that. (also, she presumably doesn't wear her armour outside the combat, so most people probably wouldn't recognise her without it.)

Of course she does, otherwise she wouldn't be considered miraculous, would she? The fluff for The Promethean war specifically says that she mysteriously appears and disappears. Likewise, her character description's use of "appears" does not imply that her arrival is conventional in nature. Also, she doesn't wear a helmet. so she'd be just as recognisible.

 Crimson wrote:
She probably hears rumour of trouble brewing somewhere and heads there. Occasionally she just stumbles into a situation where she is needed. And of course there's a confirmation bias here. Everyone remembers those few battles she appeared to help, yet there was about three billion battles where she didn't!

She hears rumours of trouble trouble brewing (trouble for the Sororitas specifically, and as a military force their actions aren't exactly going to be on the rumour mill) and manages to constantly show up in the nick up time? There's no accounts of her being late of early for a battle, so I doubt she's relying on ships. Also, she doesn't show up every time becuase the Sisters would be kinda boring if an Angel just showed up and won the battle for him every time they were losing.

 Crimson wrote:
Yet, Tyranids with wings do not have 'jump packs' in their wargear (they have wings) even though they move as jump infantry. I'm sure there are other examples of things that move as jump infantry but do not have actual jump packs.

This could be explained by the designers wanting her to behave as if she had a jump pack, rather than wings. Her ability to travel normally but having the option to take flight and quickly strike when she needs to.

 Crimson wrote:
Both characters can get up even if instakilled by battlecannon. If you take that as face value instead of just peculiarities of game mechanics there has to be something weird going on in both cases. Or it can just be narrative immunity rather than supernatural one.

And yet Yarrick cannot keep re-rolling when he goes down. He fails his roll, he stays down. Also, regular armour saves can be just as silly as Yarrick surviving a battlecannon. My Sister Superior survived 7 bolter rounds simultaneously impacting on her armour in one game. Really, it's just a consequence of that rule. Of course it'll apply for some silly, hard to beleive things.

 Crimson wrote:
Yes there is, it's 40K fluff.

Nah, it's just an overview of her, not in-universe or a report of a battle. Really, there's no reason I couldn't say it's all accurate if you can just accuse it of bias on principal.

 Crimson wrote:

Yes, she appears (ie. arrives from somewhere.) And she gets up (presumably in the midst of confusing battle) after suffering some wound that may or may not have been serious. There does not need to be anything supernatural going on. (even though there could be.)

I'd say that there is, purely because it's fluffed as something that continually happens, in the context of her continuously showing up mysteriously. Surviving a seemingly mortal wound? Your explanation could fit. Surviving several, and in the aforementioned context? Something is clearly going on with this woman.

 Crimson wrote:
Fluff is vague at best and I would not directly equate tabletop mechanics to the fluff. I don't for example think that Marneus Calgar has any physical or supernatural quality that allows him to survive four direct lascannon hits, his Eternal Warrior is just a narrative conceit.

But Calgar, nor any other character to my knowledge, is not fluffed as having the ability to continually revive from mortal blows.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lynata wrote:
I'm with Crimson on this one in that it is at least a viable option to explain the Living Saint. It's not the one that I am personally running with, but it deserves to be mentioned (which I even did in an earlier post in this thread).

Eh, I'm not seeing any real basis for it. Believe what you want about her, but I just can't see any real basis for it beyond speculation.

It's not even confined to the fluff, it manifests in the rules too with her ability to keep reviving after "dying". And I'm pretty sure that us players battling it out with our miniatures is meant to be"actually happening" rather than a propaganda piece.

Another bit of chum for the shark tank :p

"... There are also scattered reports of major phenomena that have manifested in the most terrible of battles and have inspired Imperial soldiery to victory - the Vaustin Eagle, the Angel of Tirisphon, and the Thorian Choir amongst them. Some claim these are merely psychic overspill brought about by mass hysteria or the delerium of war, but theae recividists are inevitably caught and painstakingly reconditioned by the Adeptus Ministorum."

Apocalypse (6ed)' pg 24, 'Divine Intervention'

It's not specific to Sisters of Battle, but I think it nicely echoes the ambiguity of the issue at hand.

 Stormfather wrote:
Another bit of chum for the shark tank :p

"... There are also scattered reports of major phenomena that have manifested in the most terrible of battles and have inspired Imperial soldiery to victory - the Vaustin Eagle, the Angel of Tirisphon, and the Thorian Choir amongst them. Some claim these are merely psychic overspill brought about by mass hysteria or the delerium of war, but theae recividists are inevitably caught and painstakingly reconditioned by the Adeptus Ministorum."

Apocalypse (6ed)' pg 24, 'Divine Intervention'

It's not specific to Sisters of Battle, but I think it nicely echoes the ambiguity of the issue at hand.

Interesting. If anything, it adds a little weight to the idea of Celestine being powered by the beliefs of the Sisters. Certainly, the Sisters, with their extremely strong faith, would be most likely to cause such a phenomenon. Though again Celestine's continual mysterious appearances do suggest that she's the real deal.

Actually, the cloak and halo for the Celestine model is attached to what could be a small jump pack. Or possibly just the heat exchanger for the power armor.

Spetulhu wrote:
Actually, the cloak and halo for the Celestine model is attached to what could be a small jump pack. Or possibly just the heat exchanger for the power armor.

Likely just the... What's it called? Power source for her power armour. They all have those, after all.

I'd look for myself, but I can't find a picture that has the right angle.

Troike wrote:And I'm pretty sure that us players battling it out with our miniatures is meant to be"actually happening" rather than a propaganda piece.

I don't know - some units' abilities, and I'm not just talking about the Sisters, appear very much "movie-like". Crimson mentioned Calgar's "Eternal Warrior", for example, could be interpreted as a mix of plot armour and immediate misinterpretation on the field (example: artillery shell explodes 10 meters from him, but it looks like he gets a direct hit) that leads to falsified records later on. In essence, the TT might be an abstraction not just in rules but fluff as well.

Note, it's not a position that I myself am holding - in fact, I am a proponent of a strong and inherent connection between fluff and rules - but I do think that it's a viable position to hold.


@Stormfather: Thanks, that's a pretty cool read! Even though it only adds further to the confusion by not providing "proof" of anything but offering multiple explanations yet again. I have to say, I've grown to like this ambiguity you mentioned, at least to a degree.

 Troike wrote:

Of course she does, otherwise she wouldn't be considered miraculous, would she? The fluff for The Promethean war specifically says that she mysteriously appears and disappears. Likewise, her character description's use of "appears" does not imply that her arrival is conventional in nature.

I'm working from the assumption that supernatural things do not exist in the real world, yet many people believe them. Belief in miracle is not proof of existence of miracle. Lucky coincidences can and will be considered miraculous by people who are inclined to believe in such things.

People constantly say thing like 'Celestine pops in and out from the warp' even though fluff says no such thing. She is just a mystrious figure that (in some unscpecified way that might or might not be magical) happens to be around sometimes when she is needed.

Also, she doesn't wear a helmet. so she'd be just as recognisible.

It is dark ages in space. Average imperial citizen has perhaps seen some hand made icon of her. They're not going to recognise her face any more that you'd recognise John the Baptist or Emperor Nero if you were to meet them in person.

She hears rumours of trouble trouble brewing (trouble for the Sororitas specifically, and as a military force their actions aren't exactly going to be on the rumour mill) and manages to constantly show up in the nick up time? There's no accounts of her being late of early for a battle, so I doubt she's relying on ships. Also, she doesn't show up every time becuase that Sisters would be kinda boring if an Angel just showed up and won the battle for him every time they were losing.

How do you distinguish randomly appearing to some battles from intentionally appearing to some battles? This is exactly how confirmation bias works. When she randomly wanders into some battle it's a miracle, and when she doesn't (like in 99.9% of the time) the Sisters are not going to say: "Where was Celestine, that lazy bum?" are they?

This could be explained by the designers wanting her to behave as if she had a jump pack, rather than wings. Her ability to travel normally but having the option to take flight and quickly strike when she needs to.

Unless it has been FAQed (quite possible) Tyranids with wings operate exactly as they had jump packs, eyet they don't have jump packs in their wargear. (In any case, when SoB Codex was written, tyranid wings operated as jump packs.)

It's not even confined to the fluff, it manifests in the rules too with her ability to keep reviving after "dying". And I'm pretty sure that us players battling it out with our miniatures is meant to be"actually happening" rather than a propaganda piece.

Yes, she has that ability, so does Yarrick and many characters has ability to take few lascannon hits in the face and live. Yes, those rules are slightly different, but that's beyond the point. If the rest can be explained as luck/grit/training/narrative immunity, so can Celestine's abilities.

 Crimson wrote:
I'm working from the assumption that supernatural things do not exist in the real world, yet many people believe them. Belief in miracle is not proof of existence of miracle. Lucky coincidences can and will be considered miraculous by people who are inclined to believe in such things.

Ah, but that's the tricky thing about 40K fluff. Supernatural things do exist. Furthermore, belief can fuel the supernatural in the 40K world. Just look at Slannesh (but not direactly) or the Orks. Anyway, Celestine is unlikely powered by "lucky coincidences", as she's done what she does multiple times and on multiple occasions.

 Crimson wrote:
People constantly say thing like 'Celestine pops in and out from the warp' even though fluff says no such thing. She is just a mystrious figure that (in some unscpecified way that might or might not be magical) happens to be around sometimes when she is needed.

No, it doesn't say that. I can see why people would say it, though. Mysterious appearences plus disappearences, is drawn to desperate battles where faith and emotion are running high... There's certainly a good basis for it.

 Crimson wrote:
It is dark ages in space. Average imperial citizen has perhaps seen some hand made icon of her. They're not going to recognise her face any more that you'd recognise John the Baptist or Emperor Nero if you were to meet them in person.

But they wouldn't question some random women showing up, presumably carring a really big and heavy case, and asking if she can catch a ride? Also, when she appears and disappears, she's doing it in front of many professional soldiers, who are trained to have an awareness of the battlefield. And it doesn't take any special training to notice to a floating woman with golden armour. That she has been able to appear/disappear from the notice of such people several times suggests that she is not doing so conventionally.

 Crimson wrote:
How do you distinguish randomly appearing to some battles from intentionally appearing to some battles? This is exactly how confirmation bias works. When she randomly wanders into some battle it's a miracle, and when she doesn't (like in 99.9% of the time) the Sisters are not going to say: "Where was Celestine, that lazy bum?" are they?

Like I said, the Sisters would be boring if Celestine showed up all the time to win their battles for them. She wouldn't be special if she did what she does in every single battle the Sororitas happen to be losing.

 Crimson wrote:

Unless it has been FAQed (quite possible) Tyranids with wings operate exactly as they had jump packs, eyet they don't have jump packs in their wargear. (In any case, when SoB Codex was written, tyranid wings operated as jump packs.)

Though the Celestine model doesn't have wings, and is simply depicted as floating. Most likely, the desingners felt that putting a jump pack in her wargear represented her ability to fly better than wings being in her wargear, as the model itself does not have wings.

 Crimson wrote:
Yes, she has that ability, so does Yarrick and many characters has ability to take few lascannon hits in the face and live. Yes, those rules are slightly different, but that's beyond the point. If the rest can be explained as luck/grit/training/narrative immunity, so can Celestine's abilities.

But her abilites are specifically described as a "miraculous intervention", suggesting some other power at work. And again, as rules go it's unique. Nobody else can keep rolling to come back to life. While Yarrick's rule represents him somehow holding on despite being dealt a mortal blow, Celestine's ability represents a mortal blow not truly putting her down, for as long as the game continues she may rise up again.

 Lynata wrote:
I don't know - some units' abilities, and I'm not just talking about the Sisters, appear very much "movie-like". Crimson mentioned Calgar's "Eternal Warrior", for example, could be interpreted as a mix of plot armour and immediate misinterpretation on the field (example: artillery shell explodes 10 meters from him, but it looks like he gets a direct hit) that leads to falsified records later on. In essence, the TT might be an abstraction not just in rules but fluff as well.

Note, it's not a position that I myself am holding - in fact, I am a proponent of a strong and inherent connection between fluff and rules - but I do think that it's a viable position to hold.

It's an interesting idea to consider, of course, but not one I subscribe to either. Seems a bit mean to tell the players that the epic deeds of their troops on the tabletop were part propaganda.

 Lynata wrote:
I don't know - some units' abilities, and I'm not just talking about the Sisters, appear very much "movie-like". Crimson mentioned Calgar's "Eternal Warrior", for example, could be interpreted as a mix of plot armour and immediate misinterpretation on the field (example: artillery shell explodes 10 meters from him, but it looks like he gets a direct hit) that leads to falsified records later on. In essence, the TT might be an abstraction not just in rules but fluff as well.

I'd assume a big part of ICs' resilience be plot armour. It is not that IG Colonel can literally take thee times as many bullets as a regular IG soldier, it is just that he is a main character. When a random mook is hit he just drops and we never hear about them. They might be dead, injured or just scared and hiding in the ruins. In the end no one cares. When the main character is his, he rips his shirt and bandages the wound (which of course was just a flesh wound), grits his teeth and continues fighting.


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 Troike wrote:

Ah, but that's the tricky thing about 40K fluff. Supernatural things do exist. Furthermore, belief can fuel the supernatural in the 40K world. Just look at Slannesh (but not direactly) or the Orks. Anyway, Celestine is unlikely powered by "lucky coincidences", as she's done what she does multiple times and on multiple occasions.

Indeed. Why it is perfectly possible that she is supernatural.

But they wouldn't question some random women showing up, presumably carring a really big and heavy case, and asking if she can catch a ride?

Considering that this is presumably exactly what most passengers do, no they really wouldn't.

Also, when she appears and disappears, she's doing it in front of many professional soldiers, who are trained to have an awareness of the battlefield. And it doesn't take any special training to notice to a floating woman with golden armour. That she has been able to appear/disappear from the notice of such people several times suggests that she is not doing so conventionally.

There is actually exactly one case where she has said to specifically mysteriously disappear. For all we know she could usually stay for after battle prayer session and then leave in perfectly ordinary manner. Also, it is not particularly difficult for a single person to enter or leave chaotic battleground without someone noticing.

Like I said, the Sisters would be boring if Celestine showed up all the time to win their battles for them. She wouldn't be special if she did what she does in every single battle the Sororitas happen to be losing.
.

But has nothing to do with her being supernatural or not

Though the Celestine model doesn't have wings, and is simply depicted as floating. Most likely, the desingners felt that putting a jump pack in her wargear represented her ability to fly better than wings being in her wargear, as the model itself does not have wings.

Jump infantry that don't actually have jump pack usually don't have jump pack in their wargear.

But her abilites are specifically described as a "miraculous intervention", suggesting some other power at work. And again, as rules go it's unique. Nobody else can keep rolling to come back to life. While Yarrick's rule represents him somehow holding on despite being dealt a mortal blow, Celestine's ability represents a mortal blow not truly putting her down, for as long as the game continues she may rise up again.

If Calgar was a SoB character the Eternal Warrior would be described as Emperor's blessing or some such. It is just how the Sisters see see things, whether they were actually supernatural or not.

 Crimson wrote:
Indeed. Why it is perfectly possible that she is supernatural.

Right, which is what the floating, immunity to death and mysterious appearences strongly suggest.

 Crimson wrote:
Considering that this is presumably exactly what most passengers do, no they really wouldn't.

Do they? Were I captain, on a ship just come from a brutal warzone, I'd want the luggage of random hitchhikers checked. How do you think they'd react if they found a suit of power armour and a sword in said luggage?

 Crimson wrote:
There is actually exactly one case where she has said to specifically mysteriously disappear. For all we know she could usually stay for after battle prayer session and then leave in perfectly ordinary manner. Also, it is not particularly difficult for a single person to enter or leave chaotic battleground without someone noticing.

But nothing says that she hangs around afterwards, just that she "appears". As for there being one case, as there are no other cases related, we can assume it's the norm. Also, she wouldn't be leaving a "chaotic" battle, as she would have royally battered the enemy forces first. In the fluff for The Promethean War, it actually says that the Chaos forces are destroyed after she kills the Daemon Prince leading them and carves a path through the Chaos forces. A figure as eye-catching as Celestine isn't going to be able to just float away from a battle when she's just killed a Daemon Prince and hamstrung the enemy forces.

 Crimson wrote:
But has nothing to do with her being supernatural or not.

But it's a factor nonetheless. It would be pretty crap fluff if she constantly won the difficult battles for the Sisters every time.

 Crimson wrote:
Jump infantry that don't actually have jump pack usually don't have jump pack in their wargear.

Right, becuase they cannot float around on their own either.

 Crimson wrote:
If Calgar was a SoB character the Eternal Warrior would be described as Emperor's blessing or some such. It is just how the Sisters see see things, whether they were actually supernatural or not.

Nah, were he an SoB character, it'd be ambigious. The descriptions for the Acts of Faith all talk about how the Sisters use their belief in the Emperor to enhance their martial prowess. It doesn't say wether or not some supernatural force is in play. Celestine, however, has several pieces of fluff depicting her as a supernatural being.