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This is the short version.

A Mangler squig touched my Frostheart Phoenix.

I said that is minus 1 strength.

My opponent said no it isn't, because they aren't in base contact.

My response was how did the squig touch him if his base didn't touch my base?

I think this is a no brainer.

What do you guys think?

Got good news and bad news.

IMHO:

It says contact in fanatics and mangler, so it's B2B. So they are -1S. But the dmg from those units isn't dependent on their S. Yeah, it matches, but the attack is laid out in their special rules. I don't see anything that if a Mangler's Strength is raised to 10 or lowered to 1 they don't do 2D6 S6 AP hits. They don't even have a WS for crying out loud. So it's kind of moot.

I think there is a big problem with that though.

The attacks are str6, because the Mangler Squig is str 6.

I've been cruising through the book. It is full of poorly written or poorly explained rules.

It doesn't matter. The special rules list explicitly how many hits of what type an enemy takes.

It's not poorly explained. It tells you exactly what happens. It's probably more descriptive than almost any special rule because it's totally self-contained. If you make contact, you trigger the Kersplat. Nowhere does that special rule reference the profile of the unit. It doesn't matter how many attacks he has, WS, S, etc. You're in the body of the special rule and you follow the instructions, which say you take the 2D6 S6 AP attacks for a Mangler.

The same would happen if a Troll vomited on you. It would lose 1S being in B2B, but vomit explicitly says it does S5 hits. If they wanted to tie the Strength to the profile, they could. But a super buff Troll isn't going to vomit any harder and a chilly fanatic is still berserker strong swinging a ball of destruction.

the fact the mangler and the hits it does have the same strength is just a coincidence as far as the rules are concerned. Fluffwise, yes they are done at the model's strenght. Ruleswise they are completely unrelated. A Strength buff would not effect the hits it does.

The hits are done at a set value. To be effected by the Frostheart(or any other buff/debuff) the rule would have to say "the model/unit contacted takes XD6 hits at the strength of the mangler/fanatic"

Don't forget about giants too.
They roll on a charge that causes S6 hits.
Buff/Debuffing a giant doesn't change the result of the chart.

-Matt

I think the orc book is full of poorly written half explained nonsense.

My favorite is the entry for fanatics. If they hit terrain they die. Open Ground is terrain, hence they would never be able to be released.

The Mangler Squig's Strength is 6. Why else would the attacks be at str 6? So spells that lower the strength of the Mangler Squig would not lower the strength of it's attacks?

The only way for it to make contact with my model is by it's base striking the base of my phoenix. That (logically speaking - but with gw who knows) would be when it hits my bird so to speak and should be affected by the aura.

They are not CC attacks anyway, they are distributed and happen as per shooting, it just happens that the condition to trigger the "attack" is when one hits you one way or another
Might seem stupid, but not more than frost reducing Strength if you ask me (speed yeah, strength? not so much)

So a chariot's impact hits (distributed as per shooting) are not close combat hits?

 Atlantic wrote:
So a chariot's impact hits (distributed as per shooting) are not close combat hits?

I don't think that is the argument anyone is making. Though distributed as a shooting attack, i believe chariot rules dictate that you do D6 hits at the strength value of the model doing the impact hits, not a set value, like the mangler entry reads. so chariots would be -1 str on impact hits vs frostheart.. Their impact hits can also be increased I believe, by increasing S value of the model via buffs.

Pretty sure like others have said, the mangler/fanatics specify the strength of the attack in their entry. So while you would reduce the models stat line strength by 1, it would be moot as others has said, because when time to dole out hits, the rules dictate the S of the attacks, which are separate from the S entry on the models profile.


Not that it makes sense, but appears to be how it works RAW.

No, because you have a strength value for the attack that is not based on the strength value of the attacking model. They are distinct.

So put it another way - a SM Relic blade hits at S6, regardless of the strength of the person wielding it. They could be S10, or S1, and the hits are still S6.

It is an abstraction - get over it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, because you have a strength value for the attack that is not based on the strength value of the attacking model. They are distinct.

So put it another way - a SM Relic blade hits at S6, regardless of the strength of the person wielding it. They could be S10, or S1, and the hits are still S6.

It is an abstraction - get over it.

I think you meant to say Crimson Death, not Relic Blade. We don't want to be pulling Predator rules for Steam Tanks after all.

-Matt

 Atlantic wrote:
I think the orc book is full of poorly written half explained nonsense.

My favorite is the entry for fanatics. If they hit terrain they die. Open Ground is terrain, hence they would never be able to be released.

The Mangler Squig's Strength is 6. Why else would the attacks be at str 6? So spells that lower the strength of the Mangler Squig would not lower the strength of it's attacks?

The only way for it to make contact with my model is by it's base striking the base of my phoenix. That (logically speaking - but with gw who knows) would be when it hits my bird so to speak and should be affected by the aura.

The G&O army book is one of the best army books GW has ever released. Very clear and well-balanced rules.

It's skillfully written, but it's a pile of garbage if you compare the fluff and how they really play
Orcs are not supposed to be the masters of the long range battles, but that's what they tend to be ... Orc Boyz are sad pandas (except if they're naked and frenzied, then they're happy)

TanKoL wrote:
Boyz are sad pandas (except if they're naked and frenzied, then they're happy)

Being the father of two boys, I would say that is totally correct.
Ask any 4 year old. Two weapons are better than one, and naked is better than clothing.

Fluffwise, the basic Orc should be the big un, or at least WS4.

-Matt

skyfi wrote:

 Atlantic wrote:
So a chariot's impact hits (distributed as per shooting) are not close combat hits?

I don't think that is the argument anyone is making. Though distributed as a shooting attack, i believe chariot rules dictate that you do D6 hits at the strength value of the model doing the impact hits, not a set value, like the mangler entry reads. so chariots would be -1 str on impact hits vs frostheart.. Their impact hits can also be increased I believe, by increasing S value of the model via buffs.

Pretty sure like others have said, the mangler/fanatics specify the strength of the attack in their entry. So while you would reduce the models stat line strength by 1, it would be moot as others has said, because when time to dole out hits, the rules dictate the S of the attacks, which are separate from the S entry on the models profile.


Not that it makes sense, but appears to be how it works RAW.

Impact hits are done at the strength of the model doing them, unlike the Mangler and Fanatic rules which are special.

Yes, the Phoenix would effect impact hits but it doesn't effect Manglers or Fanatics. Or Giants for that matter.

Impact Hits, Stomp, specifically happen at the strength of the profile that owns them. That is how those special rules work. Kersplat is its own special rule and has hard-coded the strength of the attack. It can't go up. It can't go down.

Here's another more relevant example. If you cast gift of the spider god on Mangler Squigs, nothing happens. Poison Attacks gives poison...to attacks. The Mangler has no attacks. It has a special rule in which to do damage.

They're weird units.

DukeRustfield wrote:
Impact Hits, Stomp, specifically happen at the strength of the profile that owns them. That is how those special rules work. Kersplat is its own special rule and has hard-coded the strength of the attack. It can't go up. It can't go down.

Here's another more relevant example. If you cast gift of the spider god on Mangler Squigs, nothing happens. Poison Attacks gives poison...to attacks. The Mangler has no attacks. It has a special rule in which to do damage.

They're weird units.

And since the Mangler doesn't ever roll to hit, it wouldn't matter if it is poisoned or not.

I guess that basically is what Duke said.

Also, guys, get some avatars! It's really easy to mix you guys up :/

 Sigvatr wrote:
Also, guys, get some avatars! It's really easy to mix you guys up :/

I know, right? nosferatur1001, DukeRustfield, and HawaiiMatt... you're all regulars, give your profiles some love

skyfi wrote:

 Atlantic wrote:
So a chariot's impact hits (distributed as per shooting) are not close combat hits?

I don't think that is the argument anyone is making. Though distributed as a shooting attack, i believe chariot rules dictate that you do D6 hits at the strength value of the model doing the impact hits, not a set value, like the mangler entry reads. so chariots would be -1 str on impact hits vs frostheart.. Their impact hits can also be increased I believe, by increasing S value of the model via buffs.

Pretty sure like others have said, the mangler/fanatics specify the strength of the attack in their entry. So while you would reduce the models stat line strength by 1, it would be moot as others has said, because when time to dole out hits, the rules dictate the S of the attacks, which are separate from the S entry on the models profile.


Not that it makes sense, but appears to be how it works RAW.

I'm not buying any of that for a minute.

The fanatics hits are at str 5. The profile for a fanatic is str 5.
Mangler squig hits at str 6. The profile is str 6.

I don't believe in coincidences.

Here is another example of the brilliant rules writing in the orc army book.

From the Fanatic Entry -

"A Fanatic is removed immediately as a casualty when:

It contacts a piece of terrain of any kind other than a hill"

Pg. 116 brb - "Open terrain is the most prevalent type of battlefield terrain"

I don't think this should be interpreted this way at all, but if want to be strict about RAW the only safe place for fanatics to move is on hills.

This reasoning is exactly why the curse of anraheir forces dangerous terrain tests on open ground - which I feel is extremely clear according to RAW.

This is irrelevant. If Fanatics had a rule that said, if your name is Bob the unit explodes on deployment, it wouldn't change the special rule of Kersplat.

Think of it like equipment. A guy with a gun is going to do the dmg of the gun. Very often you will see they have the same strength, this is just to balance the unit.

An even closer example to your HE is the special rule Breath Weapon. Which is all over the place. The Strength is explicitly listed. Nothing you do to that model can change the strength of the Breath Weapon because it is defined inside the special rule. Some models have a Strength characteristic the same as the Strength of the Breath Weapon (Firebelly comes to mind) or sometimes it's very different (your HE dragons). In any case, it's a coincidence or whatever they felt was balance.

Basically you're saying that a special rule has to have a Strength that links directly to a characteristic. That's simply not the case. There's tons that break that mold, like a terrorgheist/banshee scream. Don't get hung up on a Fanatic/Mangler looking like they are attacking people. It's not an attack, it doesn't take place during Close Combat. It is a Special Rule.

If not can we argue the counter-point for Tomb Kings?

I mean, if the stats ARE linked, our chariot charges should be much better than I have ever played.
Right?

 Atlantic wrote:



I'm not buying any of that for a minute.

The fanatics hits are at str 5. The profile for a fanatic is str 5.
Mangler squig hits at str 6. The profile is str 6.

I don't believe in coincidences.

Whatever. The Str of the model is for completeness sake alone (say, you try to dwellers him). The hits are done at the Str value shown in their entry, they're not impact hits and they're not CC hits, they just happen whenever they touch an enemy unit.

Another case is the Steam Tank grind attacks. Even though the Stank as a S6 profile, the description says "S6 automatic hits" so no matter how much you throw enfeebling foe to an STank, it will still grind at S6.

Here is another example of the brilliant rules writing in the orc army book.

From the Fanatic Entry -

"A Fanatic is removed immediately as a casualty when:

It contacts a piece of terrain of any kind other than a hill"

Pg. 116 brb - "Open terrain is the most prevalent type of battlefield terrain"

Open terrain is not a "piece of terrain", open terrain is the background for all the rest of terrain, which are (or should be) perfectly delimited (thus "piece").

 Atlantic wrote:

skyfi wrote:

 Atlantic wrote:
So a chariot's impact hits (distributed as per shooting) are not close combat hits?

I don't think that is the argument anyone is making. Though distributed as a shooting attack, i believe chariot rules dictate that you do D6 hits at the strength value of the model doing the impact hits, not a set value, like the mangler entry reads. so chariots would be -1 str on impact hits vs frostheart.. Their impact hits can also be increased I believe, by increasing S value of the model via buffs.

Pretty sure like others have said, the mangler/fanatics specify the strength of the attack in their entry. So while you would reduce the models stat line strength by 1, it would be moot as others has said, because when time to dole out hits, the rules dictate the S of the attacks, which are separate from the S entry on the models profile.


Not that it makes sense, but appears to be how it works RAW.

I'm not buying any of that for a minute.

Of course not. You do not want to get info on the rules, you are dead-set on your very wrong and foolish interpretation of it and try to make us buy your "idea" of it. Not gonna happen.

Hey, here's another thing for ya. How do you start a game? I mean, when you are asked to put terrain on the table, can I, if it's my turn, decide to bring in another gaming table from another room? I mean, it's open terrain after all!

You guys are just being obtuse.

"Base Contact" & "Contact"

"Terrain" & "Piece of Terrain"

This is exactly my point. The rules are unclear - if they were clear there would be no need to argue this stuff out.

I never said you should interpret this stuff that way - I said if you are going to follow RAW it is correct.

The fact remains that the mangler squig and fanatic both strike my model once they make contact. The str of those attacks is obviously determined by the statistic on the profile.

Where else did they get the # that determines the strength of the attacks?

The problem is that they half assed wrote the rules.

It isn't obvious, it just seems likely. Possibly the fanatics have a S5 mace and the manglers have s6 explosives. It doesn't matter - their physical strength stat has no effect on the attacks. Exactly as if it was a breath weapon.

Fluff-wise, the S of the hits come from momentum and pure mass (ie: Kinetic energy) of the things crashing into the opponent's lines, a Fanatic wouldn't punch face at S5 if he were standing still and poking with a sharp stick

Atlantic, just because one rule about terrain is a little hazy has nothign to do with the question at hand, and neither does the quality of the O&G book as such. You might have noticed that others have FAQ's, too.

Fanatic attacks are not connected to or based upon the model's strength stat. As pointed out, it's a clearly defined value for those attacks and does not mention the model's S value.

/e: Nvm, I don't think I need to repeat what everyone posted already and just report the thread.