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Earlier tonight I was playing my DE versus my friends Tau. My Razorwing Jetfighter drew the attention of some of his marker lights and he was able to roll a 6 to hit the flyer with the marker light (snap-shooting because he didn't have Skyfire). He then proceeded to fire two seeker missles, claiming he only needed a 2+ to hit the flyer because seeker missiles are fired at BS 5 once a markerlight hits. This seemed a little fishy (no pun intended with the Fishy Tau) to me, not the rule of them needing 2+, but that they only needed that to hit flyers. To save time we just went with it and my flickerfield blocked both wounds anyway, but I forgot to check his codex before I left, so was unable to see whether we played it right or not. I appreciate any help on this matter.

You can only fire one Seeker for each a single markerlight.

What MasterSlowPoke has said is correct.
- 1 markerlight token per missile fired.
Also for your future reference
- 1 token for +1 BS
- 2 tokens for ignores cover (only for the targeted squad.)

But where did he launch the missiles from?

If it was from a skyray he could of made his tank BS 5 and then chose to fire his seeker missiles as a standard tank weapon.

This would mean 2 missiles at BS5 because the tank has skyfire

He had two hammerheads, and fired one from each. So I'll remember that he can only fire one per markerlight now, but is it true that the missle only needed a 2+ to hit a flyer? Basically, the markerlight hitting the flyer lets the missle Skyfire?

I'd say no.

The requirement to fire snapshots at flyers would still count and that means firing as if you BS is 1. No matter that the normal BS for the Seeker Missile shot is BS 5.

Unless there's something I don't know about the seeker that gets around that.

He would be forced to make snap shots, they are resolved at bs 1, regardless of the shooter if it doesn't have skyfire.

Guess that's one for the FAQ, because it specifically states that they are resolved at BS 5 no matter the BS of the shooter

I don't have the rule book on me, but under 'hard to hit' in conjunction with the FAQ if its not 'resolved' as a snap shot you can not target the Swooping/Zooming Flyer. The only direct way to override this (I believe) is Skyfire.

The missile is still fired as a snap shot, however if you get more than one markerlight hit you can used one to fire the missile and any extras to boost the BS 1 of the snapshot.

i thought this was resolved in the FAQ's that seeker missiles firing using a marker light will hit as usual (as uve already been penalised with a 6+ on the maker lights)

 kezwick wrote:
i thought this was resolved in the FAQ's that seeker missiles firing using a marker light will hit as usual (as uve already been penalised with a 6+ on the maker lights)

This would make sense, but I can't find anything in the Tau / 40k FAQ atm.

 Nem wrote:

 kezwick wrote:
i thought this was resolved in the FAQ's that seeker missiles firing using a marker light will hit as usual (as uve already been penalised with a 6+ on the maker lights)

This would make sense, but I can't find anything in the Tau / 40k FAQ atm.

yea if you think about it a markerlight is a laser targeter pretty much so once the target is tagged it should be able to let loose the missile and it follows the markerlight so if it hits id say you resolve it as BS5 but only one per markerlight, but thats bringing theory and sense into he pot if its not it makes seekermissiles not on skyrays usless at flyers as ud need a 6+ for the markerlight another 6 + for the seeker adn a X+ for damage you might as well fire it without the markerlight.

edit: after thorght and clarity

It's a 2+ to hit the flyer using a missile with a markerlight token to launch it.

They had this same discussion back in the last codex and it was FAQ-d to be 2+. Both rules for snap shots and launching the markerlight tokens ignore the BS for the firer and are "resolved at BS *." You can use whatever justification you want, but last time this issue came up GW FAQ-D it to be a 2+ to hit.

Don't have my copy of the Tau Codex with me, but is it a preset BS5? Or is it +1BS? I thought it was the latter. If so, wouldn't the traditional hierarchy for characteristic modifiers apply? (multiplication, then addition, then absolute overrides like Unwieldy)

In that case, if neither the model firing, nor the weapon, have Skyfire, wouldn't RAW negate the Markerlight bonus to BS (but a second Markerlight would still remove any cover save)?

Mythal wrote:
Don't have my copy of the Tau Codex with me, but is it a preset BS5? Or is it +1BS? I thought it was the latter. If so, wouldn't the traditional hierarchy for characteristic modifiers apply? (multiplication, then addition, then absolute overrides like Unwieldy)

In that case, if neither the model firing, nor the weapon, have Skyfire, wouldn't RAW negate the Markerlight bonus to BS (but a second Markerlight would still remove any cover save)?

i think your thinking of "pinpoint" where it gives +1 to the BS fiering a seeker is a different part of the "target aquired" special rule that also costs 1 markerlight token

OK so I had to trawl around to find reference to the old FAQ. Latest on this forum I could find....

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/390/487121.page


Still devided opinion, basically. I believe RAW as DeathReaper entered into the last post in the thread, however I am unsure on intent. In a game I wouldn't really mind. They could have made it obvios when writing a new codex, but no.

I would say that the seeker missile wound hit on a 2+ as marker lights have been redesigned to laugh at snapshots.

Imotek also had his ability FAQed, which auto hits, able to hit flyers.

It will need to be FAQed again for the new codex before long though.

 Nilok wrote:
I would say that the seeker missile wound hit on a 2+ as marker lights have been redesigned to laugh at snapshots.

Imotek also had his ability FAQed, which auto hits, able to hit flyers.

It will need to be FAQed again for the new codex before long though.

Imoteks Storm doesn't auto hit, it requires a roll of 6 to hit.
Also, 1 out of 4 markerlights abilities specifies in increases BS of Snap Shots and Overwatch (Pinpoint), which is explicite permission the missiles are missing.

Also, the wording for markerlight seeker missiles in the last edition is different to this one.
Hard to Hit

Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as snap shots (Unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule, as described on page 42.)

(BRB bolding)

Missiles

- Is resolved at Ballistic Skill 5.

Snap Shots

...If a model is forced to mak Snap Shots rathr than shoot normally, the its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1, for the purpose of those shots

 Nem wrote:

 Nilok wrote:
I would say that the seeker missile wound hit on a 2+ as marker lights have been redesigned to laugh at snapshots.

Imotek also had his ability FAQed, which auto hits, able to hit flyers.

It will need to be FAQed again for the new codex before long though.

Imoteks Storm doesn't auto hit, it requires a roll of 6 to hit

However, it doesn't hit using snapshot, which is the distinction. Originally you could not hit flyers without snapshots (see old Tau FAQ for Markerlights), however Imotekh's rule is that on the roll of a 6 he hits the flyer. While it appears functionally the same as snapshooting, it isn't the same thing.

The power requires a 6 to activate for each units, and states that the unit takes a hit, however there is no roll to hit that can be turned into a snapshot.

Again, it is functionally the same thing, but his power isn't a snapshot and it can hit flyers.

 Nilok wrote:

 Nem wrote:

 Nilok wrote:
I would say that the seeker missile wound hit on a 2+ as marker lights have been redesigned to laugh at snapshots.

Imotek also had his ability FAQed, which auto hits, able to hit flyers.

It will need to be FAQed again for the new codex before long though.

Imoteks Storm doesn't auto hit, it requires a roll of 6 to hit

However, it doesn't hit using snapshot, which is the distinction. Originally you could not hit flyers without snapshots (see old Tau FAQ for Markerlights), however Imotekh's rule is that on the roll of a 6 he hits the flyer. While it appears functionally the same as snapshooting, it isn't the same thing.

The power requires a 6 to activate for each units, and states that the unit takes a hit, however there is no roll to hit that can be turned into a snapshot.

Again, it is functionally the same thing, but his power isn't a snapshot and it can hit flyers.

I don't disagree with the logic, I am just saying until a FAQ, for this edition codex, I can not see a RAW arguement to counter the rules for S.Missiles, Snap shots and Hard to hit.


[edit] if there was a FAQ about markerlights on flyers please share, I linked a thread earlier with the FAQ question I believed you were refering to, but that FAQ has nothing to do with flyers

Two set values ocur simultaneously, both from Advanced rules but one from a codex and one from the main rulebook. According to page 7, the codex wins such conflicts.

I don't think that's an ironclad interpretation. The enforcement of Hard to Hit has been inconsistant to say the least, and the Seeker portion of Markerlight makes no mention of Snap Shots as Pinpoint does.

My gut instinct would be to allow the shots to fire at BS 5, but I could understand someone disagreeing.

I don't really believe there is conflict -

If we rewind a bit to what we know...

ML Seeker missiles are resolved at BS5.
Snap Shots are resolved at BS1.
Only hits resolved as Snap shots can hit Zooming flyers and Swooping FMCs.

Are ML Seeker missiles resolved as Snap shots?

Seeker missiles have no wording or permission to be resolved as a Snap shot, the BRB FAQ states BS1 of a Snap shot can not be modified, which means to create conflict with that it would have to state it is resolved at BS5 including when fired as a Snap shot.

Imoteks ability is a logical step from one to the other, while when reading as RAW 'requires a 6 to hit' and 'BS1' are not the same thing, the designers have used it interchangeable in this case - IMO likely because of the date of the codex, and errata is too much effort.

Yeah I believe it should be BS1 at the moment, if they want it to work against flyers then I think it would say grants skyfire, or fires at BS5 even against flyers. It's just not quite permissive enough at the moment, could go either way.

I'd either play it as BS1 or if the opponent really argues then roll for it.

Edit: In fact wasn't there a GW faq about set BS values and snap shots? (like Telion's one)

 shamikebab wrote:
Yeah I believe it should be BS1 at the moment, if they want it to work against flyers then I think it would say grants skyfire, or fires at BS5 even against flyers. It's just not quite permissive enough at the moment, could go either way.

I'd either play it as BS1 or if the opponent really argues then roll for it.

Edit: In fact wasn't there a GW faq about set BS values and snap shots? (like Telion's one)

There was an FAQ with the old Tau and their markerlights not being able to modify snapshots or fire seeker missiles in overwatch. However, that was later revoked in the new code and they can now modify snapshots.

No word if the Tau can fire seeker missiles into overwatch.

You can use a markerlight to make a seekermissile hit on a 2+
why would this change if its a flyer?
It specifically says.. seeker missiles hit at BS5 when using a markerlight token...

KonTheory wrote:
You can use a markerlight to make a seekermissile hit on a 2+
why would this change if its a flyer?
It specifically says.. seeker missiles hit at BS5 when using a markerlight token...

And you then resolve the hit as a Snap Shot, or BS1.

Well this is disheartening to see fellow Tau players put in information without bringing out their codex...

Here is the RAW data from the NEW codex (quit confusing people by referring the old codex!):

Seeker Missile (page 66)

- 72" range
- STR: 8
- AP: 3
- Heavy 1, One Time Use

Ok, here are the rules for use---

It is a weapon for a model to use. Just like a Hunter-killer Missile, you can fire it with the model's BS and it acts like any other 72" str 8 ap 3 weapon.

Here is the exception:

Under Markerlights (Page 68)

- "Seeker:.......................................................Markerlight cost: 1+ [one per shot]
"For each markerlight counter expended on this ability, the unit immediately fires a single Seeker Missile (if it has one [remember: they are expendable]) in addition to any other weapons it is permitted to fire. A Seeker Missile fired in this way:
- Does not need line of sight.
- Must be fired at the same target as the vehicle's other weapons [ one can argue that a suit can fire at separate targets, but that is another discussion thread].
- IS RESOLVED AT BALLISTIC SKILL 5.
- Has the Ignores Cover special rule [no jink allowed, so dont waste an Evade when shot with a "smart" seeker missile].
- Does not reduce the number of weapons a vehicle can fire at its full Ballistic Skill.
- Does count towards the limit of 2 missiles that a flyer can fire each turn."

That is the RAW. It says that all targets, when using a markerlight to fire, are resolved at BS 5. That includes flyers. Also remember that Codex Rules override BRB rules (page 6 BRB, basic vs. advanced rules)

If you want some more "evidence" for this case, look under the Skyray section (page 51)

*This is fluff and not rules, but can be used to help support a TAU player's game when in a situation like this.*

Third Paragraph:

"The seeker missiles that they carry are so fast that many enemy pilots are hit and downed before they can even take evasive maneuvers."

Essentally the seeker missile, when guided by a markerlight, is so fast and accurate, that it nearly always hits the aircraft and the pilot does not get a warning fast enough to Evade: thus the Ignores Cover rule to get past you trying to evade and getting a jink save.



I hope this helps with data/passages from the codex directly.

jazzpaintball wrote:
Stuff

Per the FAQ, only Snap Shots can hit Flyers (Skyfire gives an obvious exception). Per the FAQ Snap Shots cannot be modified with specific permission. Per the Tau codex, there is no specific permission overriding Snap Shots (for an example, see Pinpoint).

 Happyjew wrote:

jazzpaintball wrote:
Stuff

Per the FAQ, only Snap Shots can hit Flyers (Skyfire gives an obvious exception). Per the FAQ Snap Shots cannot be modified with specific permission. Per the Tau codex, there is no specific permission overriding Snap Shots (for an example, see Pinpoint).

Which FAQ?

The TAU FAQ does not have anything about seeker missiles. It actually is very small referring to (mostly) just rocket drones and using multiples of the same weapon system on suits.

If you are talking about the BRB FAQ, you are gonna have a couple problems:

FIrst is that it is a BRB FAQ. Just as I stated, the BRB (page 6) says that there are basic rules (BRB) and specific rules (codexes/special rules). It says that specific rules over-rule the basic ones.
Codex rules override BRB rules.

Rule overrides:
BRB < BRB FAQ < Codex < Codex FAQ

Secondly is that if you think the BRB FAQ over-rides the codex, then markerlights are broken. On page 68 of the TAU codex, under markerlights: Pinpoint.

Pinpoint says directly that you "...can increase the Ballistic Skill of Snap Shots and Overwatch,"

Essentially are you saying that due to the BRB FAQ, that entire rule is null-and-void and they wrote it for nothing due to the BRB FAQ overriding the codex?

That and he's taking the BRB FAQ out of context.

Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Space Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of Experience)? (p13)
A: No.

While Pinpoint modifies the BS of the firing model, the rules for firing a seeker missile with a ML have a set BS so this part of the FAQ does not apply.

How about another rule that overrides snap fire? Ok.

Q: Does a weapon that hits automatically, still hit automatically when making a Snap Shot? (p13)
A: Yes.

Obviously snap fire is not as ironclad as some would like everyone to believe. I agree that Codex>BRB as a specific rule exists that allows the seeker to be fired at BS5. Keep in mind here that the model is not firing the weapon as the seeker is fired in addition to any other weapons but instead the expenditure of the markerlight is actually the activating factor as the only BS used is the one provided for in the rules, not the model's profile.