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 cerbrus2 wrote:


Your marines dont have a special Markerlight rule though do they. Pointless argument there. As said the markerlight does not change the BS of the model the seeker is fired from it uses a special rule in the codex, that when you score a snapshot with a markerlight the marker light can be used to guide a Seeker at BS5. Codex over rights Rule book for special rules.

No they dont, but they do have a peice of wargear called a signum with the exact same wording.

 davou wrote:

 cerbrus2 wrote:


Your marines dont have a special Markerlight rule though do they. Pointless argument there. As said the markerlight does not change the BS of the model the seeker is fired from it uses a special rule in the codex, that when you score a snapshot with a markerlight the marker light can be used to guide a Seeker at BS5. Codex over rights Rule book for special rules.

No they dont, but they do have a peice of wargear called a signum with the exact same wording.

No it is not.

Signum allows one model in the squad to shoot at BS 5.

Pinpoint says it can increase the entire squads BS by one for each markerlight token used.

Seeker Missile fired using a Markerlight token says that the shot is resolved at BS 5.

--------They all say different things.



The signum just makes the model effectively BS 5 for the shooting phase, just like if the model's original stats is BS 5.

The seeker missile shot does not affect the model carrying the missile at all. Only the missile is affected and only the missile is given the BS 5. Not the other weapons on the model carrying the seeker missile, even though the model has to shoot its other weapons at the same target.

jazzpaintball wrote:

 davou wrote:

 cerbrus2 wrote:


Your marines dont have a special Markerlight rule though do they. Pointless argument there. As said the markerlight does not change the BS of the model the seeker is fired from it uses a special rule in the codex, that when you score a snapshot with a markerlight the marker light can be used to guide a Seeker at BS5. Codex over rights Rule book for special rules.

No they dont, but they do have a peice of wargear called a signum with the exact same wording.

No it is not.

Signum allows one model in the squad to shoot at BS 5.

Pinpoint says it can increase the entire squads BS by one for each markerlight token used.

Seeker Missile fired using a Markerlight token says that the shot is resolved at BS 5.

--------They all say different things.



The signum just makes the model effectively BS 5 for the shooting phase, just like if the model's original stats is BS 5.

The seeker missile shot does not affect the model carrying the missile at all. Only the missile is affected and only the missile is given the BS 5. Not the other weapons on the model carrying the seeker missile, even though the model has to shoot its other weapons at the same target.

The signum sets at BS5 jusy like the seeker use of antoke sets at 5, theres absolutely no indication in the pinpoint rule that its special exception to the snap firing rules applies also to seeker missiles. They are two distinct headings

 davou wrote:

The signum sets at BS5 jusy like the seeker use of antoke sets at 5, theres absolutely no indication in the pinpoint rule that its special exception to the snap firing rules applies also to seeker missiles. They are two distinct headings

There is a difference.

The Signum says: (Page 100 codex space marine)

"If he does so, one model in his squad is Ballistic Skill 5 for the remainder of the Shooting Phase."

This means that the model has a BS 5 in his profile for all intents and purposes. This means that everything that is changed from a profile is changed from the BS 5 profile.

The Seeker Missile says: (Page 68 codex tau empire)

" - Is resolved at Ballistic Skill 5."

This means that after all other positive and negative attributes have been taken into account, it still becomes a BS 5 shot.

This means that even if I used up markerlights to increase a Skyray to BS 7 and shot a seeker missile using a markerlight, then it would still go down to a BS 5.

Since there are two rules saying that the shots resolve at BS 5 and one at BS 1, we have to take the more advanced rule from the codex and use it per BRB page 8 - basic versus advanced rules.


I am starting to get confused though. What are people having trouble with understanding? Is it what rule take affect last or is it the wording of how Snap Shots BS is modified?

jazzpaintball wrote:
intensive purposes.

Intents and purposes. Sorry., bit of a pet peeve

 Happyjew wrote:

jazzpaintball wrote:
intensive purposes.

Intents and purposes. Sorry., bit of a pet peeve

It is alright, the wife is trying to cure me of that one as well. Thank you for catching it.

jazzpaintball wrote:
Is it what rule take affect last or is it the wording of how Snap Shots BS is modified?

It's that the Seeker Missile rule has nothing that overrides the Hard to Hit restriction of requiring a Snap Shot.
None. And since Snap Shots are BS1 by definition, if you're resolving it at BS5 it's not a Snap Shot.

rigeld2 wrote:

jazzpaintball wrote:
Is it what rule take affect last or is it the wording of how Snap Shots BS is modified?

It's that the Seeker Missile rule has nothing that overrides the Hard to Hit restriction of requiring a Snap Shot.
None. And since Snap Shots are BS1 by definition, if you're resolving it at BS5 it's not a Snap Shot.

I am seeing the markerlight usage for pinpoint and seeker missiles along the same line of ideology.

With pinpoint:

A model with BS 3 shooting at a flyer has to snap shot, making the model shoot at BS 1. Then you can use a markerlight token to raise the BS 1 to BS 2.

With seeker Missiles:

A model with BS 3 shooting at a flyer has to snap shot, making the model shoot at BS 1. It then shoots all of its weapons that it can at the flyer at BS 1. The seeker missile can use a markerlight token to raise just the shot of the seeker missile from BS 1 to BS 5.

All the shots from the model in both cases are forced to become BS 1. The single markerlight token on the target can be used to either increase all of the shots of said model to BS 2 or can just increase seeker missile to BS 5. Thus the model is still performing snap shots, but the expenditure of the markerlight token modifies the BS 1 due to snap shooting.

jazzpaintball wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

jazzpaintball wrote:
Is it what rule take affect last or is it the wording of how Snap Shots BS is modified?

It's that the Seeker Missile rule has nothing that overrides the Hard to Hit restriction of requiring a Snap Shot.
None. And since Snap Shots are BS1 by definition, if you're resolving it at BS5 it's not a Snap Shot.

I am seeing the markerlight usage for pinpoint and seeker missiles along the same line of ideology.

With pinpoint:

A model with BS 3 shooting at a flyer has to snap shot, making the model shoot at BS 1. Then you can use a markerlight token to raise the BS 1 to BS 2.

With seeker Missiles:

A model with BS 3 shooting at a flyer has to snap shot, making the model shoot at BS 1. It then shoots all of its weapons that it can at the flyer at BS 1. The seeker missile can use a markerlight token to raise just the shot of the seeker missile from BS 1 to BS 5.

All the shots from the model in both cases are forced to become BS 1. The single markerlight token on the target can be used to either increase all of the shots of said model to BS 2 or can just increase seeker missile to BS 5. Thus the model is still performing snap shots, but the expenditure of the markerlight token modifies the BS 1 due to snap shooting.

Does pinpoint have a specific allowance to change snap shots?
Does the seeker missile function?

The difference is that Pinpoint specifically calls out Snap Shots by name, where as Seeker Missile does not.

It's similar to another rule conflict (though I will use a different rule to prevent thread hijacking and pissing people off):
Sweeping Advance says that the unit is removed as a casualty and no special rules can save them.
Miraculous Intervention allows St Celestine to come back after being RFP. Since it does not specifically call out SA, it cannot save her. ATSKNF, on the other hand says that if the unit is caught in a SA they immediately go back to fighting.

(Although there is an FAQ for Celestine isn't there?)

MI says that it works when she is removed as a casualty. The FAQ clarified this to include RFP abilities (which is what initially sparked the whole RFPaaC=?=RFP argument specifically towards RP/EL). However, it still does not save her from SA.

WHich is why I used MI rather than say, EL, as that would turn a thread on markerights into a thread on EL. Which would upset people.

 Happyjew wrote:
The difference is that Pinpoint specifically calls out Snap Shots by name, where as Seeker Missile does not.

It's similar to another rule conflict (though I will use a different rule to prevent thread hijacking and pissing people off):
Sweeping Advance says that the unit is removed as a casualty and no special rules can save them.
Miraculous Intervention allows St Celestine to come back after being RFP. Since it does not specifically call out SA, it cannot save her. ATSKNF, on the other hand says that if the unit is caught in a SA they immediately go back to fighting.

I guess the best thing we need here is a definition: "Resolves"

I am using a Webster Dictionary.

1) "To reach a firm decision about ,resolve to get more sleep><resolve disputed points in a text>" (HA!)
2) a) "To declare or decide by a formal resolution and vote"
b) "to change by resolution or formal vote <the house resolved itself into a committee>"

There are others, but it deals with dissolving and resolution of pathological states.

I am looking at the first definition. "To make a firm decision about."

If the codex wanted the ballistic skill of the seeker missile shot, why would they include the word "resolve"? If a codex has a final say in conflicting rules and the codex says that a ballistic skill resolves at BS 'X', then wouldnt that resolvement be the last say after all other modifiers?

I dont like the idea over a BS 1 "smart fired" seeker missile and I never fought the old codex with it reading that you have a 1/36 chance of hitting a flyer.
I also do not play with seeker missiles now for I think they are over-priced. The only reason I am arguing this now is because of that one damn word: "resolved".

What do you guys see/interpret when you read that a shot is resolved at BS 'X'?

That you set the model's BS to that listed for the shot.

And for what it's worth I agree that a 1/36 chance to hit a Flyer is which is why, except in a tournament where it would be the TO's call (and if I was said TO I would rule opposite RAW), I play that they hit on a 2+.

 Happyjew wrote:
That you set the model's BS to that listed for the shot.

So if that is the case. Do you apply the codex's 'resolved at' modifier before or after BRB modifiers?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:


And for what it's worth I agree that a 1/36 chance to hit a Flyer is which is why, except in a tournament where it would be the TO's call (and if I was said TO I would rule opposite RAW), I play that they hit on a 2+.

I am a TO nearly every month. I debate in these kind of posts constantly due to making sure that my calls as a TO are as true as they can be.

I would call it a 2+, but if I can be shown why it should be a 6+ after a markerlight used, I will put it in my TO note-book to make sure that my tourneys are as true to the rules as they possibly can be.

jazzpaintball wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
That you set the model's BS to that listed for the shot.

So if that is the case. Do you apply the codex's 'resolved at' modifier before or after BRB modifiers?

Normally, when you have two set modifiers, the current turn player chooses. However, per the FAQ, you cannot modify the BS1 of Snap Shots (unless the modifier specifically allows it). So in this case it would not matter, either you apply Seeker first, in which case you are BS1, or you apply BS1 first and per the FAQ cannot be modified, and thus would still be BS1.

I disagree with Rigeld and Happy actually.

The FAQ:

A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them.

Snapshots: its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1.

Seeker: Resolves at BS 5.

So it shouldn't matter that the Snapshot sets the BS of the shooter to 1 as with the wording the shot resolves at BS 5.

So for me even RAW the Seeker hits on a 2+ in this case.

Unless I missed a FAQ somewhere?

Baktru wrote:
I disagree with Rigeld and Happy actually.

The FAQ:

A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them.

Snapshots: its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1.

Seeker: Resolves at BS 5.

So it shouldn't matter that the Snapshot sets the BS of the shooter to 1 as with the wording the shot resolves at BS 5.

So for me even RAW the Seeker hits on a 2+ in this case.

Unless I missed a FAQ somewhere?

Well there is the faq that says you cannot modify the bs1 for snap shots.

 Happyjew wrote:

Baktru wrote:
I disagree with Rigeld and Happy actually.

The FAQ:

A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them.

Snapshots: its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1.

Seeker: Resolves at BS 5.

So it shouldn't matter that the Snapshot sets the BS of the shooter to 1 as with the wording the shot resolves at BS 5.

So for me even RAW the Seeker hits on a 2+ in this case.

Unless I missed a FAQ somewhere?

Well there is the faq that says you cannot modify the bs1 for snap shots.

"Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules.

On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex always takes precedence."


Hard to hit, conflicts with the seeker missile rule. Seeker missile rule is a codex rule, and takes precedence over the BRB. Its that simple. Meaning the Markerlight hits on a 6 then the seeker can hit on a 2+. The fact Hard to hit states "must allays be taken at BS1" is made obsolete. its really rather simple.

you have already made a snapshot to hit a flyer with a marker light anyway right?

Are people so worried about their flyers they want to make them to take another snapshot after making a snapshot?

If that's the case leave your flyer at home.

 cerbrus2 wrote:
Hard to hit, conflicts with the seeker missile rule. Seeker missile rule is a codex rule, and takes precedence over the BRB. Its that simple. Meaning the Markerlight hits on a 6 then the seeker can hit on a 2+. The fact Hard to hit states "must allays be taken at BS1" is made obsolete. its really rather simple.

No, it's not that simple.
There's no conflict here - at all. There's no exception in the Seeker missile rule that says "Hits Flyers on a 2+" or "Doesn't need a Snap Shot to hit Flyers".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DOOMONYOU wrote:
you have already made a snapshot to hit a flyer with a marker light anyway right?

Are people so worried about their flyers they want to make them to take another snapshot after making a snapshot?

If that's the case leave your flyer at home.

So a discussion about rules must involve someone wanting to keep their toys safe?
Hell, my Flyrants will probably be grounded from the markerlight hit so it's irrelevant

Cerbrus - find the conflict.

You do realise your argument would mean a signum would also resolve at BS5, yet we know - explicitly - that it doesnt?

Hard To Hit
Zooming Flyers are incredibly difficult targets for troops
without suitably calibrated weapons and scopes. Shots resolved
at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots
(unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule,as
described on page 42). Template, Blast and Large Blast weapons
cannot hit Flyers in Zoom mode.

Here's the explicit instruction to not hit flyers with anything that isn't a snapshot or benefiting from skyfire. The snapshot part of this is important, because of how the pinpoint rule is worded later.

Snap shot
If a model is forced to make Snap Shots
rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is
counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots.

Here we have the bit that makes flyers and FMC so hard to down. Shots fired as snap shots can ONLY be counted as coming from a model with bs1. Any other BS being used makes these not a snap shot, and cannot hit flyers or FMC unless the weapon has skyfire because of the hard to hit rule.

FAQ on snap shots
Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that
modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Space Marine
Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of Experience)? (p13)
A: No.

Pretty cut and dry, although a little confusing now that we have pinpoint.

Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’troll to hit cannot target them. This includes
weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray orthe
Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic
powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and
novas.

Another mention of only snap shots; seems the point needs to be driven home, even in the FAQ.

Now here it gets interesting, because the tau codex has a special allowance for increasing the BS of snap shots. The important part is that the wording maintains that its still a snap shot, only with increased BS.

Markerlight rules
• Pinpoint: ..................................... .. ... ... Markerlight cost: 1+
All models firing at the target as part of this shooting
attack gain a bonus to their Ballistic Skill for the
duration of the shooting attack. The size of this
bonus is equal to the number of markerlight counters
expended on this ability. Pinpoint can increase the
Ballistic Skill of Snap Shots and Overwatch.
• Scour: .... . ... . .. . .... ........................... . .. ... .. . Markerlight cost: 2
All weapons fired at the target as part of this Shooting
attack gain the Ignores Cover special rule.
• Seeker: .................................................. Markerlight cost: 1+
For each markerlight counter expended on this ability,
the unit immediately fires a single seeker missile (if
it has one) in addition to any other weapons it is
pet-mitted to fire. A seeker missile fired in this way:
-Does not need line of sight.
- Must be fired at the same target as the vehicle's
other weapons.
- Is resolved at Ballistic Skill 5.
- Has the Ignores Cover special rule.
- Does not reduce the number of weapons a vehicle can
fire at its full Ballistic Skill.
-Does count towards the limit of 2 missiles that a flyer
can fire each turn.

See above? There's a very interesting bit bolded in, it says that a seeker missile has a bs of 5 when fired this way, but BS makes absolutely no difference when snap shoting. Demon princes, grots, suit commanders and emplaced weapons all need sixes when firing snap shots.

Also note how the wording for poinpoint takes the time to specify that even though the bs is increased, the shots still count as snap shots; Also notice how any sort of effort of that kind if absent from the seeker rule.

So we have (in this order)

*Flyers and FMC can ONLY ever be hit by snap-shots, skyfire weapons and effects/weapons that automatically hit can never hit flyers/FMC.

*Any model making a snap shot, counts is BS as 1 for those shots, regardless of what its ballistic skill is normally/otherwise. Counting the BS as anything but one, means that the shot is not a snap shot, and can never hit a flyer (unless the model has skyfire somehow)

*Special rules that modify BS cannot alter the ballistic skill of a snap shot (this was universal before the tau codex, and now there exists one exception, which
EXPLICITLY lists snap firing and makes a point of specifying that despite modification, the shot is still in fact a snap shot)

*One more go at -only snap shots and skyfire can hit flyers-

*Pinpoint can increase the ballistic skill of snap shots (and they are outlined as still counting as snap shots after the mod)

*Seeker missiles are fired at a bs of 5 (no mention of this counting as a snap shot)

So either the shot gets bumped to BS 1 in order to qualify as being a snap shot, or else it must always be fired at BS5, in which case it does not count as a snap shot, and can therefore never hit flyers; Which do you prefer?

I don't get why this is such a big deal; in almost a full year, Tau seem to have gotten one of two unique instances of being able to play with the snap-shot rule; why would we go from 0 to 100 and have it twice within the same subheading on a page?

I am sorry Davou, but there is something I still can not unsee....

You said:
"*Seeker missiles are fired at a bs of 5 (no mention of this counting as a snap shot)"

The original rule says:
"- Is resolved at Ballistic Skill 5."

I am still seeing the RESOLVED as a huge factor. A rule is resolved at the end of all modifiers. Since the CODEX says that the shot is RESOLVED at BS 5, I have to be inclined that the BS 5 is the last factor applied to the shot after all other modifiers.

I would not fight it if the codex did not state "resolved at".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Cerbrus - find the conflict.

You do realise your argument would mean a signum would also resolve at BS5, yet we know - explicitly - that it doesnt?

This is true, but the signum modifies the stat line of a model. When that model snap-fires, it still gets put to BS 1.

The Tau Codex states that the seeker missile fired with a markerlight token is resolved at BS 5, meaning after the model is put to BS 1 for snap firing, the one seeker missile is resolved at BS 5 while all the other shots from the model are made at BS 1.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Does anyone know of another shooting attack that states it should be "resolved at BS'X' "?

Knowing that another "resolve at BS X" is still affected by snap shots BS 1 rule will end this argument instantly.

You seem to be confusing 'resolved' with a 'set value modifier'.

Set values happen at the end, resolved however is just a random choice of words... And even if it weren't, my point about shots that aren't snap shot can never hit a flyer/FMC remains valid. If it hits on a 2+, it isn't a snap shot (unless you've supercharged it with the only rule in the game that can-pinpoint)

Grots resolved their shots at BS2, unless they snap fire. A demon prince resolves his shots at BS9, unless he snap fires. A fire warrior resolves his shots at BS3, unless he snap fires.

If you can find some mention of 'resolving' being a special rule that has some measure of precedence, then by all means provide it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also there are other mentions of 'resolve' in 40k. Specifically in the assault sections, all of which were used with a loose definition of 'follow through to its conclusion' (resolved the combat, resolve the charge, etc).

GW writes the rules for warhammer, not a dictionary... I think going to Websters for some enterpretation that favors one side of this argument is reaching, especially if the other side can provide nearly ten quotes from the rulebook, FAQ, and codices that contradict

 davou wrote:
You seem to be confusing 'resolved' with a 'set value modifier'.


GW writes the rules for warhammer, not a dictionary... I think going to Websters for some enterpretation that favors one side of this argument is reaching, especially if the other side can provide nearly ten quotes from the rulebook, FAQ, and codices that contradict

You mean to tell me we should no longer use English while reading the rules? We should not use the words that the rule writers use?

Using a dictionary to find out what the definition of a word used in the rules should indicate everything. If they used the word "Resolve(d)", then we should heed that word.

Saying that we should omit words because GW is not a dictionary writer is insulting to the writers; telling them that they are too stupid to use words like that for that is obviously not what they meant to use.

I am not trying to "interpret' what 'resolved' means, and am showing you that you do not know what 'resolved' means.

The ten quotes you have are all forgetting this one damn word: Resolved.
The codex explicitly states that the shot is RESOLVED at BS 5. No matter what you do, the shot is BS 5 after all other considerations. Since the codex overrides the BRB, then the BS 5 prevails.

Unlike the FAQ, no other weapon mentioned is a "resolved at BS X" shot. Instead, it is all modifiers to the model's BS, which is still affected by snap shots.

 davou wrote:

 cerbrus2 wrote:


Your marines dont have a special Markerlight rule though do they. Pointless argument there. As said the markerlight does not change the BS of the model the seeker is fired from it uses a special rule in the codex, that when you score a snapshot with a markerlight the marker light can be used to guide a Seeker at BS5. Codex over rights Rule book for special rules.

No they dont, but they do have a peice of wargear called a signum with the exact same wording.

Actually the FAQ that said Signum do not over rule, used to include the markerlight, when the new codex drop the markerlight was removed from the list of Wargear that was supersceded by snapshot.

barnowl wrote:

 davou wrote:

 cerbrus2 wrote:


Your marines dont have a special Markerlight rule though do they. Pointless argument there. As said the markerlight does not change the BS of the model the seeker is fired from it uses a special rule in the codex, that when you score a snapshot with a markerlight the marker light can be used to guide a Seeker at BS5. Codex over rights Rule book for special rules.

No they dont, but they do have a peice of wargear called a signum with the exact same wording.

Actually the FAQ that said Signum do not over rule, used to include the markerlight, when the new codex drop the markerlight was removed from the list of Wargear that was supersceded by snapshot.

It was dropped because Markerlights can modify Snap Shots via Pinpoint (which specifically says it can modify).

Did they update the BRB FAQ and get rid of that specific FAQ?

---------nope, i got excited there for a minute...

jazzpaintball wrote:
Did they update the BRB FAQ and get rid of that specific FAQ?

The specific question is still there, they just dropped markerlights from it (due to Pinpoint).