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thejughead wrote:rigeld2, I did. You dismissed them.

rigeld2 wrote:

 thejughead wrote:


Hard to hit rule is triggered upon firing at a flyer or FMC.

This is how I see it.

Model fires the seeker.
Hard to Hit says that it must (not should or may) be a Snap Shot to even target a flier.
Snap Shot sets the BS to 1 as a set modifier, which is applied after everything else.

The Seeker attempts to resolve at BS5, because his special rules allow it.

So you're modifying the BS a Snap Shot sets?

No, you never responded to that one. Perhaps you wouldn't mind?

As I have said before, the seeker resolves at BS5. The firer is still BS1.

 thejughead wrote:
As I have said before, the seeker resolves at BS5. The firer is still BS1.

Incorrect. Snap shots are resolved at bs1. The firer's bs has not changed.

The seeker cannot resolve at bs5 vs a flyer because then it wouldn't be a snapshot as snapshots cannot be modified (except by pinpoint).

 thejughead wrote:
As I have said before, the seeker resolves at BS5. The firer is still BS1.

And that doesn't matter a damn bit,


"Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. (SIC)

The Seeker could resolve hits at BS10, but when it even has a synapse fire in their brain of thinking of hitting a Zooming Flyer or Swooping FMC, it has to Snap Shot. It makes no difference who or what is taking the shot, unless their is a rule specifically overriding that it does not have to take a snap shot or that it is unaffected by snapshot.

 thejughead wrote:
As I have said before, the seeker resolves at BS5. The firer is still BS1.

So it's not a modifier? Then it's also not a Snap Shot and cannot hit a flyer per the Hard to Hit rules.

Or is it a modifier? Then it cannot modify a Snap Shot per the Snap Shot rules.

Which is it? A modifier or not? Or some third thing that you need to find rules support for?

Its not a modifier. Of that im certain.


So as per current RAW, if you consider it an attack from a model, you cannot fire it at a flier.


However seeing as how the RAI is pretty clear (being that you can fire it at fliers), we have to consider other ways to allow that.


So i stick with the fact that its a piece of wargear, ACTIVATED by the expenditure of a markerlight in the exact same manner that spending a markerlight removes cover or increases BS by +1.

Unless you can find somthing that prevents you from spending markerlight tokens to activate, you cannot stop the seeker missle activation.

Eihnlazer wrote:
Its not a modifier. Of that im certain.


So as per current RAW, if you consider it an attack from a model, you cannot fire it at a flier.


However seeing as how the RAI is pretty clear (being that you can fire it at fliers), we have to consider other ways to allow that.


So i stick with the fact that its a piece of wargear, ACTIVATED by the expenditure of a markerlight in the exact same manner that spending a markerlight removes cover or increases BS by +1.

Unless you can find somthing that prevents you from spending markerlight tokens to activate, you cannot stop the seeker missle activation.

Is it a weapon? If so, then was it fired as a Snap Shot? If you used BS5 then you did not fire it as a snap shot. If it is not a weapon you do not get to add the Strength to Armour Penetration.

your trying too hard man.

If you cant accept my opinion on the matter just say so.

RAI im right so thats what im gonna play by and i gave a legitimate way to explain it.

Im not a TO though, so obviously my way isnt the only way.

You can re-read my earlier posts. We just keep going in circles.

Eihnlazer wrote:your trying too hard man.

If you cant accept my opinion on the matter just say so.

RAI im right so thats what im gonna play by and i gave a legitimate way to explain it.

Im not a TO though, so obviously my way isnt the only way.

You have literally zero evidence for that intent - in fact, going by the previous book (which had amazingly similar rules for this issue) you would in fact *not* use BS5.

thejughead wrote:You can re-read my earlier posts. We just keep going in circles.

Awesome - you don't actually have an argument with any basis in reality, you just want to say some things that disagree with actual rules.

 thejughead wrote:
You can re-read my earlier posts. We just keep going in circles.

Your earlier posts were deficient in using any rules related to 40k

Resolved at BS5 is a modifier, a set one in fact. Read oh, page 2 I think. The definition is in there. So, you set the BS to 5, then it is set to 1 by Snapfire.

Your argument is rebutted, completely. Please only post further if you have some rules to contribute to the discussion - actual rulebook ones.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 thejughead wrote:
You can re-read my earlier posts. We just keep going in circles.

Your earlier posts were deficient in using any rules related to 40k

Resolved at BS5 is a modifier, a set one in fact. Read oh, page 2 I think. The definition is in there. So, you set the BS to 5, then it is set to 1 by Snapfire.

Your argument is rebutted, completely. Please only post further if you have some rules to contribute to the discussion - actual rulebook ones.

As the active player, when I have two "Set to X" effects I'm going to set to 1 for Snap Shot first, then because the codex block says "Resolve at BS5" I'm going to set it to BS5.

 Miri wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 thejughead wrote:
You can re-read my earlier posts. We just keep going in circles.

Your earlier posts were deficient in using any rules related to 40k

Resolved at BS5 is a modifier, a set one in fact. Read oh, page 2 I think. The definition is in there. So, you set the BS to 5, then it is set to 1 by Snapfire.

Your argument is rebutted, completely. Please only post further if you have some rules to contribute to the discussion - actual rulebook ones.

As the active player, when I have two "Set to X" effects I'm going to set to 1 for Snap Shot first, then because the codex block says "Resolve at BS5" I'm going to set it to BS5.

The codex does not say set to X, it says resolve. Part of that resolve process is 'set to 1'

rigeld2 wrote:

Eihnlazer wrote:your trying too hard man.

thejughead wrote:You can re-read my earlier posts. We just keep going in circles.

Awesome - you don't actually have an argument with any basis in reality, you just want to say some things that disagree with actual rules.

You're right I should trade my 40k card.

 Miri wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 thejughead wrote:
You can re-read my earlier posts. We just keep going in circles.

Your earlier posts were deficient in using any rules related to 40k

Resolved at BS5 is a modifier, a set one in fact. Read oh, page 2 I think. The definition is in there. So, you set the BS to 5, then it is set to 1 by Snapfire.

Your argument is rebutted, completely. Please only post further if you have some rules to contribute to the discussion - actual rulebook ones.

As the active player, when I have two "Set to X" effects I'm going to set to 1 for Snap Shot first, then because the codex block says "Resolve at BS5" I'm going to set it to BS5.

So you're applying a modifier to a Snap Shot? When it's explicitly denied?
That'd be breaking rules.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Miri wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 thejughead wrote:
You can re-read my earlier posts. We just keep going in circles.

Your earlier posts were deficient in using any rules related to 40k

Resolved at BS5 is a modifier, a set one in fact. Read oh, page 2 I think. The definition is in there. So, you set the BS to 5, then it is set to 1 by Snapfire.

Your argument is rebutted, completely. Please only post further if you have some rules to contribute to the discussion - actual rulebook ones.

As the active player, when I have two "Set to X" effects I'm going to set to 1 for Snap Shot first, then because the codex block says "Resolve at BS5" I'm going to set it to BS5.

So you're applying a modifier to a Snap Shot? When it's explicitly denied?
That'd be breaking rules.

Nope. The codex lets me do that by it saying a markerlight guided seeker missile resolves at BS5.

 davou wrote:

 Miri wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 thejughead wrote:
You can re-read my earlier posts. We just keep going in circles.

Your earlier posts were deficient in using any rules related to 40k

Resolved at BS5 is a modifier, a set one in fact. Read oh, page 2 I think. The definition is in there. So, you set the BS to 5, then it is set to 1 by Snapfire.

Your argument is rebutted, completely. Please only post further if you have some rules to contribute to the discussion - actual rulebook ones.

As the active player, when I have two "Set to X" effects I'm going to set to 1 for Snap Shot first, then because the codex block says "Resolve at BS5" I'm going to set it to BS5.

The codex does not say set to X, it says resolve. Part of that resolve process is 'set to 1'

Davou,

Please explain why you believe the "resolve" has to be in your order of occurrence.

 Miri wrote:
Nope. The codex lets me do that by it saying a markerlight guided seeker missile resolves at BS5.

Can you cite the allowance to ignore the restriction on Snap Shot that denies the modifier?

 thejughead wrote:

 davou wrote:

 Miri wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 thejughead wrote:
You can re-read my earlier posts. We just keep going in circles.

Your earlier posts were deficient in using any rules related to 40k

Resolved at BS5 is a modifier, a set one in fact. Read oh, page 2 I think. The definition is in there. So, you set the BS to 5, then it is set to 1 by Snapfire.

Your argument is rebutted, completely. Please only post further if you have some rules to contribute to the discussion - actual rulebook ones.

As the active player, when I have two "Set to X" effects I'm going to set to 1 for Snap Shot first, then because the codex block says "Resolve at BS5" I'm going to set it to BS5.

The codex does not say set to X, it says resolve. Part of that resolve process is 'set to 1'

Davou,

Please explain why you believe the "resolve" has to be in your order of occurrence.

Not mine; but the order of presidence is clearly laid out in the rulebook. Resolve is in no way a special rule in 40k that grants permission to ignore normal rules. Why do you think that the word resolve allows you to selectively apply the rules of the shooting phase? Do you think its a USR?

 davou wrote:

Not mine; but the order of presidence is clearly laid out in the rulebook. Resolve is in no way a special rule in 40k that grants permission to ignore normal rules. Why do you think that the word resolve allows you to selectively apply the rules of the shooting phase? Do you think its a USR?

Because my codex tells me exactly how to shoot the Seeker missile. If I am shooting it with a Markerlight the shot is resolved as if it had been fired by a model with BS 5. End of story, it doesn't matter if the shooting model has a BS 10 or BS 1.

 Miri wrote:

 davou wrote:

Not mine; but the order of presidence is clearly laid out in the rulebook. Resolve is in no way a special rule in 40k that grants permission to ignore normal rules. Why do you think that the word resolve allows you to selectively apply the rules of the shooting phase? Do you think its a USR?

Because my codex tells me exactly how to shoot the Seeker missile. If I am shooting it with a Markerlight the shot is resolved as if it had been fired by a model with BS 5. End of story, it doesn't matter if the shooting model has a BS 10 or BS 1.

Perfectly fair, now where in your codex does it say to resolve that shot as if from a bs5 model with skyfire?

 Miri wrote:

 davou wrote:

Not mine; but the order of presidence is clearly laid out in the rulebook. Resolve is in no way a special rule in 40k that grants permission to ignore normal rules. Why do you think that the word resolve allows you to selectively apply the rules of the shooting phase? Do you think its a USR?

Because my codex tells me exactly how to shoot the Seeker missile. If I am shooting it with a Markerlight the shot is resolved as if it had been fired by a model with BS 5. End of story, it doesn't matter if the shooting model has a BS 10 or BS 1.

It tells you how to shoot the missile under normal circumstances.
Shooting at a Flyer is not a normal circumstance.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Miri wrote:

 davou wrote:

Not mine; but the order of presidence is clearly laid out in the rulebook. Resolve is in no way a special rule in 40k that grants permission to ignore normal rules. Why do you think that the word resolve allows you to selectively apply the rules of the shooting phase? Do you think its a USR?

Because my codex tells me exactly how to shoot the Seeker missile. If I am shooting it with a Markerlight the shot is resolved as if it had been fired by a model with BS 5. End of story, it doesn't matter if the shooting model has a BS 10 or BS 1.

It tells you how to shoot the missile under normal circumstances.
Shooting at a Flyer is not a normal circumstance.

No, it tells you how to shoot that missle under special circumstances (with a markerlight token) which, being a Codex special rule overrides shooting at a flyer under normal circumstances. Shooting a missile under normal circumstances (no markerlight token,) then yes, it would be a snap shot to shoot at a flyer, they could take a cover save against it and the shooter would need LoS to shoot it.

So again you wil ignore the FAQ, about no special rule modifying it?

Again: YOUR ARGUMENT results in Signum resolving at BS5. Which is one of the EXAMPLES given.

Your "argument" fails as you still cannot overcome the faq.

 Miri wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Miri wrote:

 davou wrote:

Not mine; but the order of presidence is clearly laid out in the rulebook. Resolve is in no way a special rule in 40k that grants permission to ignore normal rules. Why do you think that the word resolve allows you to selectively apply the rules of the shooting phase? Do you think its a USR?

Because my codex tells me exactly how to shoot the Seeker missile. If I am shooting it with a Markerlight the shot is resolved as if it had been fired by a model with BS 5. End of story, it doesn't matter if the shooting model has a BS 10 or BS 1.

It tells you how to shoot the missile under normal circumstances.
Shooting at a Flyer is not a normal circumstance.

No, it tells you how to shoot that missle under special circumstances (with a markerlight token) which, being a Codex special rule overrides shooting at a flyer under normal circumstances. Shooting a missile under normal circumstances (no markerlight token,) then yes, it would be a snap shot to shoot at a flyer, they could take a cover save against it and the shooter would need LoS to shoot it.

Again, that codex rule had no permission in it to do anything except resolve the shot at BS 5; BS becomes irrelevant when forced to snap fire.

I think the main difference here between the signum and the seeker missile is that the sigum is a special rule that modifies the abilty of the unit (i.e. no snap shots had to take place in order for this ability). With marker lights, the pathfinder would have already fired the markerlight at Snap Shot. The seeker missile does not augment the model that is shootings ballistic skill direclty, but making the weapon in question (seeker missle) fire at B5.

Seems to me that this would be allowed. The FAQ and the main rule book where it says BS can't be modified by an ability would not allow you to use a marker light to increase the BS (i.e. Broadside using the marker light to increase BS1 to BS3 by using marker light tokens) would then override the Tau codex where it says that the BS of a shooter with using markerlights is modified. This would be a giant built in nerf of the markerlight and make it almost useless.

Please go read back spazticus, the why of the pinpoint rule has been discussed and explained to death

I was just using it as an example where the BS is modifed for a unit/model and firing Snap Shots above BS1. The seeker missile acts as a seperate weapon than the regualr load out of the unit. It is fired independant of the firer's BS. So, for example, you could not say that a model with a seeker missle could use 1 marker light for the missile and then mutiple marker lights to increase the BS of the seeker missile becuase it is resolved at BS5, not the models current BS.

spaztacus wrote:
I was just using it as an example where the BS is modifed for a unit/model and firing Snap Shots above BS1. The seeker missile acts as a seperate weapon than the regualr load out of the unit. It is fired independant of the firer's BS. So, for example, you could not say that a model with a seeker missle could use 1 marker light for the missile and then mutiple marker lights to increase the BS of the seeker missile becuase it is resolved at BS5, not the models current BS.

well it's a bad example, because the pinpoint rule (your example) has a specific allowance for snap-shots worded in. The seeker missile entry does not, why would they include the wording in one but not the other, if they wanted it to apply to both? More over, if they wanted it to always need a 2+, why would they say resolve the shot at bs5, rather than say "it always hits on a 2+" ?

There are rules for shooting at flyers, and you can only ignore them if you have permission too (like in the pinpoint rule, or on weapons that have skyfire). All 'resolve' means is for you to follow the normal rules for shooting, using BS5. Not using BS5 and skyfire, Not bs5 and ignore snap fire. All of the special effects are listed behind the seeker entry, ignores cover, need no line of sight, range, BS... Why would they completely omit one that they wanted included?

It could be they did not include Skyfire becuase the "resolve at BS5 is a catch all." What I mean is this: Let's say, as I believe was the case here, a broadside is shooting the seeker missle. This broadside moved during its movement pahse, for whatever reason. Now, in this case, if it uses a seeker missile, is i resolved at BS5 or BS1. A seeker missile's profile states that it is a Heavy, 1 use only. Being a Heavy, if the broadside moved, using the common logic in this discussion of resolve at BS5 then and normal modifiers, the broadside seeker missile would be BS1 instead of BS 5 becuase moving and firing a Heavy weapon requires a BS of 5. Also of note, using a seeker missile does not count toward the amounf of weapons a vehicle can shoot using full BS. Meaning, it is resolved seperatly (not in terms of timing or allowing to shoot seeker missile at transport then other shots at unit in transport) than the oher weapons.