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 Malisteen wrote:
That's more dubious. Abaddon is available to the black legion, so that line could only be talking about the existing option to take chosen as troops with him in the army. Having to buy the vets upgrade is pretty solid, though. I'm hoping we get something decent for it, because it is not worth it on many or even most of the units that can take it, so it's definitely a penalty, rather than a neutral requirement.

And chaos chosen are not good, so even if they are troops without abby, I would not consider that an even trade. If they had access to drop pods or affordable assault transports maybe, but they don't.

Obviously subject to confirmation when someone has the rules in hand, but I'm betting (from the context of the paragraph, the fact that taking them only with Abby is not a change from the codex and iirc all the other supplements have done an unlock troops thing) that you can take them without him. As you've said, whether its useful or not is another question.

If chosen are troops without abby, one would then wonder if abby gets something in place of his then redundant ability to make them troops himself.

Perhaps abby might make terminators troops then? Even if he did, would it be worth doing with a 300+ point tax on it between the big man and the vets requirement (3 points apiece on termies)? I wonder...

Perhaps he gives Chosen Votlw for free, or perhaps a points discount for taking them?

Chosen = Troops is an HQ type ability, meaning it is usually tied to a certain HQ choice. If it isn't , and is tied to the army list and no he HQs, it still functions just like similar abilities that many other HQs have...and yet you fell that because it is "free" fro everyone else that Abaddon should get some sort of replacement ability for his ability which is also effectively free. Somehow Abaddon is not setting the bar, but is being screwed out something, because even not considering this option, Abaddon is utterly not worth his points as it is. Seriously? This also means that you are not tied down having to fork out the points for Abaddon to take Chosen as Troops. And quit whining about "I wonder what we'll get for free?" If you hadn't figured it out yet, GW finally pulled their heads out of their collective butts and realized that giving free stuff skews the game out of balance even more than the rules that they write already do, so they are not doing it anymore. What you get are some "free" variant options, not truly free things. You get choice, but you still have to pay for the stuff you choose.

So, Black Legion get to do at least one thing that no other Chaos Legion can, and anyone should know at this point that this supplemental codex is not some sort of radical reimagining of the C: CSM, just a couple pages of rules for them alongside a ton of fluff information. Yes, this is one of those "Shut your face and enjoy your codex." moments, because you could be stuck just using C: CSM. You see, the glass is half-full, not half-empty.

Theoretically part of what you pay for when you buy abaddon is the ability to take chosen as troops. If black legion already can take chosen as troops, then that would make abby less good in black legion armies than he is in regular armies. If death guard armies got troop plagues marines and plague zombies by default, then typhus would be less good in those armies as well.

Now, that's a bit facetious in abby's case, because troop chosen aren't really any good, especially if they have to buy vets, so it's something of a non-choice regardless, but still. There is a tax paid for troop chosen. That tax is part of abby's points cost, but, if the assumptions about the black legion supplement based on the preview pages are correct, that tax is also built into the black legion list by virtue of its vets requirements. Paying double the tax for the same dubious benefit is pretty meh, and I could see it bing the kind of thing a supplement writer may repay with some other rule. Not must, mind, not will. But may.


As for abby being worth his points on his own - he isn't. Oh he's tough and killy, but also slow as dirt, with a pathetic threat radius, and he costs more than a land raider. No, he isn't worth his points on his own. And since chosen troops are bad, he isn't worth his points at all. He can still be fun enough when played for fluff alone. It would be nice if his legion supplement made him a bit more tempting.

That's all wishlisting, though, neither here nor there.

 Malisteen wrote:
Theoretically part of what you pay for when you buy abaddon is the ability to take chosen as troops. If black legion already can take chosen as troops, then that would make abby less good in black legion armies than he is in regular armies. If death guard armies got troop plagues marines and plague zombies by default, then typhus would be less good in those armies as well.

Both untrue. It simply makes them less unique...in armies that they shouldn't be unique in for those features anyways. It does not make them worth less. Also, VotLW costs twice as much for Chosen because they will potentially use the benefits of the special rule twice as much. I know people like to feel outraged when things ramp up in cost when they become more effective for some reason, but that is what is being done. Besides, if you have lots of Chosen, you will simply have two less Chaos Marines in your mostly LD 10 & Hatred (Space Marines) army. That is the net effect, which does not exactly eviscerate an army list.

It certainly makes them worth less and also less unique. If Abby theoretically costs 10 more points because he gives the ability to taken chosen as troops and now Black Legion can by DEFAULT take Chosen as troops then Abby is now worth 10 points less.

Same deal with Typhus, although there is no tax on the other chaos lords as there is with Abby as they are already incredibly cheap.

Part of what Malisteen is saying that A) Chosen troops suck, so you pay a tax on Abby for nothing.. and B) You pay a double tax on nothing if you can get chosen troops without Abby. Basically Abby is just pretty bad!

Funny how Farsight is also better if you run him in the normal Tau book..

I don't get why VotLW and chosen should be a Black Legion thing anyway. It really sounds like Black Legion is more about quantity over quality:

"The Black Legion is the largest of all the traitor legions to inhabit the Eye of Terror, vastly outnumbering even their closest rivals."

"To this end, he allowed any warrior to join the legion, provided they were willing to swear allegiance to him and him alone."

It doesn't sound like they're very discriminating about who they let in. So why should they be all about VotLW and chosen? Sure, it make sense for Abaddon's inner circle or personal warband, but not for Black Legion as a whole.

 shabbadoo wrote:
Chosen = Troops is an HQ type ability, meaning it is usually tied to a certain HQ choice. If it isn't , and is tied to the army list and no he HQs, it still functions just like similar abilities that many other HQs have...and yet you fell that because it is "free" fro everyone else that Abaddon should get some sort of replacement ability for his ability which is also effectively free. Somehow Abaddon is not setting the bar, but is being screwed out something, because even not considering this option, Abaddon is utterly not worth his points as it is. Seriously? This also means that you are not tied down having to fork out the points for Abaddon to take Chosen as Troops. And quit whining about "I wonder what we'll get for free?" If you hadn't figured it out yet, GW finally pulled their heads out of their collective butts and realized that giving free stuff skews the game out of balance even more than the rules that they write already do, so they are not doing it anymore. What you get are some "free" variant options, not truly free things. You get choice, but you still have to pay for the stuff you choose.

So, Black Legion get to do at least one thing that no other Chaos Legion can, and anyone should know at this point that this supplemental codex is not some sort of radical reimagining of the C: CSM, just a couple pages of rules for them alongside a ton of fluff information. Yes, this is one of those "Shut your face and enjoy your codex." moments, because you could be stuck just using C: CSM. You see, the glass is half-full, not half-empty.

yeah cos space marines get ATSKNF, and the different legions within their book get combat tactics, infact id go even further to say that the SM codex will be layed out in such a way as the CSM codex should be, allowing multiple legions/chapters all individualised in what they can do, so far CSM has a MC that uses vehicle rules where others dont (riptide, giant nids, wraithknight), i would also suspect that if the basic marine codex has an assault specialist they will be better than beserkers or have grenades unlike warptalons.

so being black legion will mean a basic marine costs an extra point, taking anything else is up to 3ppm more expensive, but no, in an army list that already has expensive things, lets not give a REAL incentive to use it....

im really hoping that this book is the first of the legion books and does some fixing, personally ill be hanging for a thousand sons supplement or a way that makes them viable. but then again the first 6th ed book wont be straightned out, and we will get to see the posterboys looking very shiny.

Black legion supplement is up on the site.

I'm actually excited as if this supplement does make Chosen troops I'll finally be able to legally run by Zone Mortalis Chaos Space Marine army. I don't really care if chosen are woeful running an army made up mainly of three Chosen squads along with Noise Marines, Thousand Sons, a Dreadnought and Obliterators is alot of fun.

Oh so I already paid for a codex, but now I need to get this other book that supposedly represents better the very basic army that my chaos codex is supposed to represent. So now my codex is.... a bland mushy cereal with some helldrakey candy sprinkled on top? Thank you GW Corporate. I mean I may have been excited for something like, I don't know, any other Legion in a world of chaos that is just as detailed as that of loyalist space marines in the lore but lacks any rules to represent them...

but instead I get this... well I would rather slam my penis in a car door than buy this.

 Meade wrote:
Oh so I already paid for a codex, but now I need to get this other book that supposedly represents better the very basic army that my chaos codex is supposed to represent. So now my codex is.... a bland mushy cereal with some helldrakey candy sprinkled on top? Thank you GW Corporate. I mean I may have been excited for something like, I don't know, any other Legion in a world of chaos that is just as detailed as that of loyalist space marines in the lore but lacks any rules to represent them...

but instead I get this... well I would rather slam my penis in a car door than buy this.

The basic codex is not Black Legion.

Of course rather than wildly speculating about it we could all just hang on until Friday and we'll all know, would be interesting to see what the BL specific Warlord traits are!

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Meade wrote:
Oh so I already paid for a codex, but now I need to get this other book that supposedly represents better the very basic army that my chaos codex is supposed to represent. So now my codex is.... a bland mushy cereal with some helldrakey candy sprinkled on top? Thank you GW Corporate. I mean I may have been excited for something like, I don't know, any other Legion in a world of chaos that is just as detailed as that of loyalist space marines in the lore but lacks any rules to represent them...

but instead I get this... well I would rather slam my penis in a car door than buy this.

The basic codex is not Black Legion.

It's just absolutely fine at representing them, and you really don't need this supplement to accurately depict them.

I can't remember who, but someone did note the fact that while the Black Legion will accept anyone who swears themselves to Abaddon, but are yet all veterans of the long war is fairly contradicting.

Im looking forward to it me, A whole book devoted to my beloved black legion !!
I asked in WW at the weekend and they were saying it may be as late as november for the release of the physical copy, although I doubt they really know lol.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/wnt/blog.jsp?pid=10400064

New terminator rules? Interesting.

That, and we have confirmation of new warlord traits, which was previously just speculation afaik.

It's nice to hear Black Legion termies are getting some sort of love, as the vets requirement (if indeed that turns out to be a thing) hits them pretty hard. Cheap price is about the only thing chaos termies really have going for them, and 3 points a model for vets starts to undermine that advantage fairly quickly. It would be a shame if Black Legion players stopped fielding terminators altogether, so hopefully whatever it is they're getting is pretty cool.

 Malisteen wrote:
That, and we have confirmation of new warlord traits, which was previously just speculation afaik.

It's nice to hear Black Legion termies are getting some sort of love, as the vets requirement (if indeed that turns out to be a thing) hits them pretty hard. Cheap price is about the only thing chaos termies really have going for them, and 3 points a model for vets starts to undermine that advantage fairly quickly. It would be a shame if Black Legion players stopped fielding terminators altogether, so hopefully whatever it is they're getting is pretty cool.

It's possible that the Termy rule is based around the elite Justaerin Terminators that were lead by Abaddon during the Great crusade, and Horus heresy.

all sorts of things are possible. an elite termy retinue for abby, possibly benefiting from his quadramark while he's attached? Troop termies with abbadon, since chosen seem like they might be troops already without him? Some sort of 'termie assault' rule, deep striking in the first turn, or charging the turn they deep strike a la loyalist vanguard? Access to teleport homers or some other form of scatter mitigation? Unique wargear upgrades - perhaps terminator possessed?

Who even knows. It could be amazing, or terrible, or just a cosmetic cookie with little to no game play effect. I'm excited to see more, but not exactly getting my hopes up.

 Malisteen wrote:
all sorts of things are possible. an elite termy retinue for abby, possibly benefiting from his quadramark while he's attached? Troop termies with abbadon, since chosen seem like they might be troops already without him? Some sort of 'termie assault' rule, deep striking in the first turn, or charging the turn they deep strike a la loyalist vanguard? Access to teleport homers or some other form of scatter mitigation? Unique wargear upgrades - perhaps terminator possessed?

Who even knows. It could be amazing, or terrible, or just a cosmetic cookie with little to no game play effect. I'm excited to see more, but not exactly getting my hopes up.

The assault rule would fit into the whole Justaerin aspect of being the 'spear' of the attack, I mean, hopefully they can input unique traits into the book. Maybe some characters from the Horus Heresy series, which are quickly forgotten when we move into the current era.

 Imposter101 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Meade wrote:
Oh so I already paid for a codex, but now I need to get this other book that supposedly represents better the very basic army that my chaos codex is supposed to represent. So now my codex is.... a bland mushy cereal with some helldrakey candy sprinkled on top? Thank you GW Corporate. I mean I may have been excited for something like, I don't know, any other Legion in a world of chaos that is just as detailed as that of loyalist space marines in the lore but lacks any rules to represent them...

but instead I get this... well I would rather slam my penis in a car door than buy this.

The basic codex is not Black Legion.

It's just absolutely fine at representing them, and you really don't need this supplement to accurately depict them.

I can't remember who, but someone did note the fact that while the Black Legion will accept anyone who swears themselves to Abaddon, but are yet all veterans of the long war is fairly contradicting.

The fact that the Black Legion contains all sorts of warriors of every type and from all four gods only kinda reinforces the whole "Black Legion didn't need a supplement because C: CSM represented them just fine" thing even more. About the only place where C: CSM fails to fully represent the Black Legion is fluff-wise (well, and perhaps special characters, though special characters are kinda a fluff thing in the first place). In fact, this supplement contradicts itself by saying that the Black Legion are all veterans of the long war and elite while also saying that the Black Legion accepts anyone as long as they pledge their allegiance to Abaddon, and that they operate as separate warbands except when there's a Black Crusade.

Which basically means that, by what we know so far, C: CSM represents the Black Legion rules-wise better than this supplement does. This supplement looks like it would have more aptly been named "Elite of the Black Legion" (everyone's a veteran of the long war, and the book possibly includes more Black Legion special characters) instead of "Black Legion". Or perhaps "Black Legion: Crusades", I suppose.

The regular Eldar book was 'Absolutely fine' at representing Iyanden, though, and they were still the first Eldar supplement. And while the army list in the CSM book may cover Black Legion well enough, the same cannot be said for the fluff section, which leaves them largely devoid of distinguishing personality, not a terribly acceptable state for what are supposed to be the poster boys for the faction.

You can say this is functionally 'supplement ultramarines', but ultramarines are the overwhelming focus of the fluff, narrative, and art of the space marine book, with all sorts of detail on what they're like and how they do things, several unique personalities rather than just one, and even a unique regiment that directly ties into some of their most notable historical battles. The black legion got little and less of that out of the CSM book, which takes a much broader view of the faction than the soon-to-be-replaced space marine book, and where it does dive into detail, it's on smaller, lesser known, more recent renegade warbands.

Anyway, it's the kind of fluff that the Ultramarines got in the current Space Marine book that I'm hoping to get for Black Legion in this new supplement. It's fluff that they need, and since these supplements seem to be 98% fluff, with a dollop of rules as an afterthought, Black Legion seem like a perfectly reasonable choice for the first supplement to me.

 Malisteen wrote:
The regular Eldar book was 'Absolutely fine' at representing Iyanden, though, and they were still the first Eldar supplement. And while the army list in the CSM book may cover Black Legion well enough, the same cannot be said for the fluff section, which leaves them largely devoid of distinguishing personality, not a terribly acceptable state for what are supposed to be the poster boys for the faction.

You can say this is functionally 'supplement ultramarines', but ultramarines are the overwhelming focus of the fluff, narrative, and art of the space marine book, with all sorts of detail on what they're like and how they do things, several unique personalities rather than just one, and even a unique regiment that directly ties into some of their most notable historical battles.

That's the kind of thing I'm hoping to see out of the Black Legion book. It's the fluff that they need, and since these supplements seem to be 98% fluff, with a drop of rules as an afterthought, Black Legion seem like a perfectly reasonable choice for the first supplement to me.

Yea, pretty much. Like I said, C: CSM failed to represent the Black Legion in terms of fluff. It's just that rules-wise, it's actually BETTER at representing the generic Black Legion warband than this supplement is, from what we know so far. Which is why this supplement should probably have been named either "Elite of the Black Legion" or "Black Legion: Crusades", in terms of rules. In terms of fluff, though, "Black Legon" is fine and good. It's just weird when the rules directly contradict most of the fluff inside it, due to the rules being more relative to the elite of the Black Legion while the fluff is related to the Black Legion as a whole (from what we've seen so far).

If there is a new warlord traits table, will Abaddon still have to take Black Crusader from C:CSM?

If it work like Lyanden you'll either play from C:SM or Black Legion,

no mixing and matching rules/units, so Abadon from C:SM will play exactly as he did before, Abadon from Black Legion we need to wait and see what rules he has

Verses wrote:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/wnt/blog.jsp?pid=10400064

New terminator rules? Interesting.

Cult players are going to be either so happy or soo pissed if BL suddenly gets fearless nasty elite terminators

 Malisteen wrote:
That, and we have confirmation of new warlord traits, which was previously just speculation afaik.

It's nice to hear Black Legion termies are getting some sort of love, as the vets requirement (if indeed that turns out to be a thing) hits them pretty hard. Cheap price is about the only thing chaos termies really have going for them, and 3 points a model for vets starts to undermine that advantage fairly quickly. It would be a shame if Black Legion players stopped fielding terminators altogether, so hopefully whatever it is they're getting is pretty cool.

Well, every supplement has had different warlord traits, so that's not really a surprise.

Not a surprise, I just wanted to note the official confirmation.

I expect that Abaddon with maintain the same default warlord trait from Codex: CSM, and that the same trait will appear in the Black Legion's trait table.

But know knowing for sure until someone with an ipad confirms it for us this weekend.

 Exergy wrote:

Verses wrote:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/wnt/blog.jsp?pid=10400064

New terminator rules? Interesting.

Cult players are going to be either so happy or soo pissed if BL suddenly gets fearless nasty elite terminators

Roll on the Death Guard supplement and just give me my Fearless FNP Plague Terminators, k?