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Hello,

I have some problems against Tau with my new Eldar.
How do I deal with a balanced Tau list?

I have a number of wave serpents, some Dire avengers and Guardians, a couple of warwalkers, a fire prism, a night spinner and some wraithguards.
what else do i need to make a TAC list that stand a chance agains Tau?

Regards

Two questions you'll want to clear up first:
1) What points level?
2) What flavour(s) of Tau?

1) 1500pts mostly
2) Some sort of suit-commander
1 or 2 units of suits
usually 4 units of FW
10+ markerlights
1 or 2 hammerheads and or broadsides

I am not looking for a counter to a specific list, i just want to be able to play against tau without getting completely trashed in 2-3 turns.

The main reason that what flavor of Tau is important is that the answer to farsight bomb, FW base, and what I dub as Gundam Style (ie suits everywhere, max riptides) are totally different. Tau is no longer a mono build 1 answer for everything dex.

For your (mechdar) force the answer to a FW base (markerlight support) list usually centers around killing the markerlights from ~50" out with your serpent shields and then next turn closing as fast and hard as possible to bring the fight into the eldar ~12" shooting and perhaps assault range. Once the markerlights go down you should be about equal with the Tau player in the shooting phase but more mobile and a bit better in the assault.

If you want the general answer to a "Tau" list then it is don't let them shoot you...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Forgot ethereal FW base. These are much scarier at 15" than the FW base. If you see an ethereal don't close unless you can get rid of it.

There general rules when loking at the new Tau to consider regardless of builds. .... now I wrote this already on a another forum but I'll save you spome time if you don't want to go there ...

http://www.thedarkcity.net/t6960-a-homage-to-mushlek-1500-1750-and-assessing-the-new-tau-july-13th

I don't really anticipate enjoying a game against Tau. They roll a lot of dice and the ignore cover and immense amount of dacha negate a good portion of my usual tactics.It might bees good for the meta, I know they are beatable but you have to know what your opponent can do and prepare a plan.
The supporting fire rule can be a pain too depending on mission and their army load out. Anytime an army’s rules break the basic mechanics of what were used too (cover, LOS, etc) it can be a rude awakening. Ignoring LoS and turning overwatch into essentially another shooting phase is brutal.
Tau are excellent this edition. Very easily top tier. Tau have altered the the formula for what the initial building blocks of a good list are. Having some units that dish out hurt at over 36″ is a must. Marker lights, SMS, HY Missiles and Fire Warriors make it key to have threats from outside that bubble.
We are forced to ignore the Riptides to a large degree. Point for point most other Tau units cause or buff to a greater degree and you can more realistically whittle their damage output by taking out key units. So prioritizing correctly is essential. Bring some Barrage to snipe footslogging Ethereals.
Use telepathy for Puppet Master, Dominate and Psychic Shriek against a Riptide. Tau/Eldar (ally) could well be the new Grey Knights but thankfully I'm playing a list without allies. If you use your old basic take all comers list, you will be dead by turn 2. They are NO FUN TO PLAY AGAINST.
They have only one battle plan, SHOOT - They do not require finesse to play. The only “tactical” descisions they have boil down to a) what to shoot at first and b) how to block off charges. END RANT.

 jhnbrg wrote:
Hello,

I have some problems against Tau with my new Eldar.
How do I deal with a balanced Tau list?

I have a number of wave serpents, some Dire avengers and Guardians, a couple of warwalkers, a fire prism, a night spinner and some wraithguards.
what else do i need to make a TAC list that stand a chance agains Tau?

Regards

I find that games against Tau tend to be the least favorite. The way I've had success against Tau has been to play the mission not the army. I tend to sit back and congregate around objectives, making them come after me. This typically means just staying outside of their killzone and weathering some of their longer distance weapons. This leads to a very boring game, but a win is a win is a win, right?

 ansacs wrote:
The main reason that what flavor of Tau is important is that the answer to farsight bomb, FW base, and what I dub as Gundam Style (ie suits everywhere, max riptides) are totally different. Tau is no longer a mono build 1 answer for everything dex.

For your (mechdar) force the answer to a FW base (markerlight support) list usually centers around killing the markerlights from ~50" out with your serpent shields and then next turn closing as fast and hard as possible to bring the fight into the eldar ~12" shooting and perhaps assault range. Once the markerlights go down you should be about equal with the Tau player in the shooting phase but more mobile and a bit better in the assault.

If you want the general answer to a "Tau" list then it is don't let them shoot you...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Forgot ethereal FW base. These are much scarier at 15" than the FW base. If you see an ethereal don't close unless you can get rid of it.

That will only work if the markerlights come from Pathfinders, right?

Spiders... Lots and lots of spiders.. Use the terrain correctly and they'll get the jump and murder suits/ gunlines/ even vehicles wholesale.
Just have to make sure they themselves don't get flanked (usually sacrificing a guardian squad works to keep them where you want them long enough)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ps the spidertank is a great way to instagib suits.. Especially with torrent... But very very hard to keep alive against deep strike suits/ riptide

If a Tau list does not bring a sniper drone team or at least two squads of Kroot snipers, Wraithknights are extremely good and threaten CC from turn 2. They can ID even T5 Commanders at range, which might scare a Tau player away from trying to use one to tank for a squad of T4 suits. Their shooting also scares Hammerheads.

And I agree with the above poster about Spiders. Good against practically everything, and can DS if necessary.

Don't deep strike spiders.. They're movement means they can threaten any part of the board by turn 2... And a very controlled flanking turn 3.. Deep strike, you have to roll reserve THEN roll scatter.. Not worth it with 12" guns even with battle focus!!

Most markerlight sources don't like serpent shields (drones, pathfinders, and even tetras). The only time this is not true is when a commander is tanking the shots...in which case I hope you brought some barrage, enough AP2 to wipe the squad, or you can split your force into 2 groups during deployment so half of them get to shoot with the commander not being the closest model. This exemplifies how Tau as a generic are not that simple to talk about.

Strayan wrote:Spiders... Lots and lots of spiders.. Use the terrain correctly and they'll get the jump and murder suits/ gunlines/ even vehicles wholesale.
Just have to make sure they themselves don't get flanked (usually sacrificing a guardian squad works to keep them where you want them long enough)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ps the spidertank is a great way to instagib suits.. Especially with torrent... But very very hard to keep alive against deep strike suits/ riptide

Forced to spam the ugliest eldar mini...
I will test some spiders but with a range of 12" it seems impossible to fire more than a few and still be able to get into cover. Besides, Tau dont always need LoS.

ansacs wrote:Most markerlight sources don't like serpent shields (drones, pathfinders, and even tetras). The only time this is not true is when a commander is tanking the shots...in which case I hope you brought some barrage, enough AP2 to wipe the squad, or you can split your force into 2 groups during deployment so half of them get to shoot with the commander not being the closest model. This exemplifies how Tau as a generic are not that simple to talk about.

Thats what makes me want to throw away my Eldar and give up, i cant make a rounded list and have any hope of winning against a rounded Tau list, A commander with multi-spectrum suite attached to a crisis team takes away any hope of Fielding mechanised eldar.

Honestly get out of the "I cannot win" mental rut. There is no reason you cannot win against Tau with mech eldar. You appear to be talking about a "farsight" bomb. Which is not that big of a deal as long as you cover your serpent's "butts" and kill the markerlights. Have you tried talking about your list yet?

I will link you with a bunch of eldar batreps with several games against Tau. Reece runs some mech elements but tends to run footdar. However it should give you a general idea how eldar are handling tau (pretty decently).
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/recentTopics/showTopicsByUser/0/2776/17.page

There are also a large number of mechdar batreps on youtube many of them against tau.

I don't think it's hopeless. The only thing that's really hard to deal with is a Commander with T5 2+ tanking for a squad. Consider trying to use the Focus Fire rules with Serpents' mobility to snipe the other members. Shadow Weavers are a great option, and you already have a Night Spinner (which is better offensively against Crisis suits but a lot easier for the Tau to knock out). Having some barrage is absolutely vital to stop him from clumping up on the other side of cover to hide from your other guns.

Suits die as easy as two Marines to your S6 and S7 guns. A Serpent can move 12" and expect to kill a Suit with a little damage left over. WWs with BLs tear them to pieces. Remember that WWs can outflank if there's enough terrain for the enemy to hide from them. A mech list is extremely resilient in the face of Riptides and Tau Troops.

As Ansacs said, stop defeating yourself... or else your opponent won't even get the chance to..

Eldar win against tau by outmanoeuvring them, take hawks for their fire warriors.. and grab objectives if you have to..
Versing Tau just means your typical jetbike saim-han army gets powned, as well as typical wriathmechdar.. stop thinking typical and bring in the weirdo's... harlequins/ banshees.. footdar.. the part about lots of cheap elder (expensive compared to other races, yes) is that they are STILL highly manoeuvrable...

PS beauty is in the eye of the converter


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[quote=jhnbrg 539537 5845793 43969595be09e6d646675d3bf6d619e8.jpg

I will test some spiders but with a range of 12" it seems impossible to fire more than a few and still be able to get into cover. Besides, Tau dont always need LoS.
[/endquote]

The best success I've had against Tau I've played cat&mouse for a turn or two flanking where I need.. then strike with everything!!!
You may loose a few to missiles etc or a few guardians to 15+inch firewarriors (comical unless in rapid fire) but when you pull it off you'd be surprised how much firepower elder pump out...

 wannabmoy wrote:


I find that games against Tau tend to be the least favorite. The way I've had success against Tau has been to play the mission not the army. I tend to sit back and congregate around objectives, making them come after me. This typically means just staying outside of their killzone and weathering some of their longer distance weapons. This leads to a very boring game, but a win is a win is a win, right?

I do this as well to beat Tau armies and I will be honest I agree it is quite boring to play against them. With my Elysians (when I am able to use IA3) the game is usually me trying to survive their interceptor shinanigans, zoom around the board for 3+ turns before deploying and finishing them off or at that point I have been shot down. I always play for the missions but am sure to either destroy or cripple their long range firepower as much as possible, and especially riptides thankfully I have x3 Vendettas for that .

When being forced to run my army out of the Imperial Guard Codex I have decided to go with the "if you cant beat them, join them" approach by taking Tau Allies with my primarily Elyisan themed force (also as allies I use Guard models so they fit my theme) and this counters them quite nicely as I now have at least a decent amount of punch to counter them. The BIGGEST thing with Tau I have seen those is target priority applies to them much more then other lists, you have to target the units that will affect you or the mission and if you mess up in that you tend to lose. Against the Marker Light shinanigans I have been playing with this rule: Few Marker Lights + Lots of units using the Marker Lights = take out the marker lights first and vice versa, has served me pretty well so far.

Got anything that can barrage and break up their formations? force them onto the move? Many Tau (not to include my own) like to mill about and sit there like a lump on a log and roll dice. So Ilike the idea of bombing them with a threeseome of shadowweavers for the soft stuff and then D-Cannons for the hard core stuff.

 Jancoran wrote:
Got anything that can barrage and break up their formations? force them onto the move? Many Tau (not to include my own) like to mill about and sit there like a lump on a log and roll dice. So Ilike the idea of bombing them with a threeseome of shadowweavers for the soft stuff and then D-Cannons for the hard core stuff.

Imperial Guard Artillery lists that go first vs Tau gunline lists...a friend who plays Death Korps of Krieg Siege list LOVES Tau armies like this

ansacs wrote:Honestly get out of the "I cannot win" mental rut. There is no reason you cannot win against Tau with mech eldar. You appear to be talking about a "farsight" bomb. Which is not that big of a deal as long as you cover your serpent's "butts" and kill the markerlights. Have you tried talking about your list yet?

I will link you with a bunch of eldar batreps with several games against Tau. Reece runs some mech elements but tends to run footdar. However it should give you a general idea how eldar are handling tau (pretty decently).
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/recentTopics/showTopicsByUser/0/2776/17.page

There are also a large number of mechdar batreps on youtube many of them against tau.

No farsight bomb, just huge amounts of S7 that ignores cover, not even serpent Shields help against that.

I have tried to Watch a couple of battle reports on youtube but i find them hard to follow, written reports are very good though.

The list I played last was this:

HQ Farseer (with Guardians)
1 warlock (with Guardians)
5x wraithguards in wave serpent
10 Guardians, scatterlaser
10 Guardians, scatterlaser
5 DA in wave serpent
5 DA in Wave serpent
Fire prism
Night spinner
2 x War Walkers, SC, SL

For a future list i have ordered 3 support weapons but it seems impossible to get hold of warp spiders from any online stores.

Strayan wrote:As Ansacs said, stop defeating yourself... or else your opponent won't even get the chance to..

Eldar win against tau by outmanoeuvring them, take hawks for their fire warriors.. and grab objectives if you have to..
Versing Tau just means your typical jetbike saim-han army gets powned, as well as typical wriathmechdar.. stop thinking typical and bring in the weirdo's... harlequins/ banshees.. footdar.. the part about lots of cheap elder (expensive compared to other races, yes) is that they are STILL highly manoeuvrable...

Thats the problem, i am not trying to build a specific anti-tau list, i just want a Tac that can handle tau aswell.

Jancoran wrote:Got anything that can barrage and break up their formations? force them onto the move? Many Tau (not to include my own) like to mill about and sit there like a lump on a log and roll dice. So Ilike the idea of bombing them with a threeseome of shadowweavers for the soft stuff and then D-Cannons for the hard core stuff.

I will try to inclue some shadow Weavers in the future.

Oh, you are not actually playing mechdar. You are playing hybrid. That actually explains a little bit (mechdar should have everything in a grav tank or T8).

Have you checked Reece's stuff? It is usually pretty easy to follow and the discussion in the thread can help to clarify.

You may actually be better served by a wraithknight than most anything else. WK are great against alot of opponents due to the S10 weapons ID most things and being good anti-AV. Additionally against tau just rush it up field and start ID all of his suits in CC.

The nightspinner is a good barrage weapon and if you can the template is excellent. Don't forget the +1 S for the tau being I3.

See I am having trouble understanding how the limited range S7 tau fire power is pounding you so badly before you can kill the markerlights. Are you deploying max outside of the 36"+6" threat range that is the tau S7 non riptide shooting?

How can i NOT be in range? Even if i deploy my tanks against the edge of the board there are no problem reaching them from the other deployment zone. Multi spectrum suite and tankhunter plus 3 crisis suites with missiles can take out Everything they want and get away with it.

It''s been said that Tau like shooting, with long range, and cover-denial.
So, get into cc, or take out the markerlights.
Kit out your DA squads with a power weapon and/or shimmershield, and drop them out of the WS close and out of LoS of the majority of the force.
Jetbikes would be good for this, too, to get in fast, and tie them up in combat. You don't have to win, but watch out for overwatch. They'll gang up on anyone assaulting, so keep out of their LoS.
Change your Guardians for Storm Guardians. A couple of fusion guns will help against suits.

A Farseer can take Eldritch Storm, which gets Fleshbane and Haywire. It's not easy to place the shot, but get in close, and throw it when you disembark.

Missile Launchers on the Wave Serpents might help stay out of enemy range. Turn sideways to get a couple of inches closer. take Holo Fields, and turbo-boost to get close early on.

Use the Nightspinner to take out markerlight model from units. Barrage takes casualties from the impact point and works outwards. Being barrage, you can shoot over cover t do it.

If you don't like Warp Spiders, try Swooping Hawks. Their grenade pack can handle Firewarriors, and the squad gets Haywire grenades too.

Striking Scorpions can ouflank or sneak up, and a power fist on the Exarch can hurt a suit.

What are your serpents armed with?

Skinnereal wrote:It''s been said that Tau like shooting, with long range, and cover-denial.
So, get into cc, or take out the markerlights.
Kit out your DA squads with a power weapon and/or shimmershield, and drop them out of the WS close and out of LoS of the majority of the force.
Jetbikes would be good for this, too, to get in fast, and tie them up in combat. You don't have to win, but watch out for overwatch. They'll gang up on anyone assaulting, so keep out of their LoS.
Change your Guardians for Storm Guardians. A couple of fusion guns will help against suits.

A Farseer can take Eldritch Storm, which gets Fleshbane and Haywire. It's not easy to place the shot, but get in close, and throw it when you disembark.

Missile Launchers on the Wave Serpents might help stay out of enemy range. Turn sideways to get a couple of inches closer. take Holo Fields, and turbo-boost to get close early on.

Use the Nightspinner to take out markerlight model from units. Barrage takes casualties from the impact point and works outwards. Being barrage, you can shoot over cover t do it.

If you don't like Warp Spiders, try Swooping Hawks. Their grenade pack can handle Firewarriors, and the squad gets Haywire grenades too.

Striking Scorpions can ouflank or sneak up, and a power fist on the Exarch can hurt a suit.

I am tempted by the swooping Hawks, both looks and rules, so they will be tested in the future, a bit worried about deepstriking them tho.
I have just finished putting together a unit of scorpions but i dont expect to ever get them into CC.

Daba wrote:What are your serpents armed with?

Mostly Bright Lances or plain shuriken cannons, i have ordered more magnets for scatter lasers and star cannons.

Step 1)
Sacrafice several goats, or 1 virgin to the dice gods for first turn. You will need it to not be crippled before you can react.

Step 2)
Break all the shields on your Wave Serpents, and any other cover ignoring weapons you can muster and kill all or most of the markerlights. Pathfinders and Marker Drone Squads. the fewer marker lights he has the more that 4+ holofield jink save will help you.

Step 3)
After all the luck involved in step 2 and 3, you now have an "even" game against the tau! Use your mobility to kite around short ranged threats, and focus your fire to eliminate his longer ranged threats.

Step 4)
Don't forget the objectives, you will not outshoot tau, so you need to play to the game to win.

Hawks are safe Deep Striking as they never scatter. You can always try to place them where they can't be intercepted (out of LOS) and they can still drop their bombs.

I recommend Scatter Laser Serpents. If you go within 36" of the pathfinders, you can twin link your serpent bow wave, and it is the best anti-light infantry weapon anyway.

SL serpent are definitely the A-list unit.

How are you always within 42" of the Tau player? You are playing on a 48"x72" board right? You should always be able to deploy at 43" out. Remember side armour is the same as front for eldar.

The normal mechdar formula is shoot the markerlights out at ~50-60" and then close within your more effective 36-12" range as you destroy his ability to retaliate effectively. The riptides are the only S7 with a range greater than 36".

BTW you may want to leave the guardians in reserve as they are liable to just get splattered by the air burst.

Do not whatever you do get into a rapid fire range battle with a FW based list as was suggested above. You will do less than 1/3 the damage the tau player puts out and will have less models to boot. You also cannot assault out of a transport so you will eat 1 turn of fire. Make sure you get rid of the buffing units (ie ethereal, etc.) before you dare get within 15" of a tau list.

Swooping hawks are great BTW leave them in a board corner 1st turn so you can leap and be assured a turn 2 DS. If you do it right the tau player will not have range nor LoS.

Scorpions can be a good distraction but you need to get decent terrain to infiltrate them in (ie get some good LoS ruins so they cannot markerlight you).

 ansacs wrote:
SL serpent are definitely the A-list unit.

How are you always within 42" of the Tau player? You are playing on a 48"x72" board right? You should always be able to deploy at 43" out. Remember side armour is the same as front for eldar.

I must be misunderstanding something, if the tau player deploy at the edge of his deployment zone he will be 36" from my board edge, there is no way i can stay out of reach from his missiles or markerlights.

Theres a lot of theory now (many thanks for all the help by the way!). I will try to get a game tomorrow, no idea what i will meet yet. Hopefully something from this thread will stick.

The thing is that if you get the 72" deployment then it is super easy to deploy out of range (actually you have to be careful to deploy within your threat range).

The other two deployments you can deploy on the opposite diagonal from him rather than straight across. This is why I like eldrad for mechdar, you can go first, deploy half of your serpents on each side and then reposition several of those to where it will do you more good. Otherwise going second can be useful so you get to deploy out of range. Either way you do not need to deploy them all together. If you are getting nuked badly you can deploy half/half on each side of the board. If the tau player splits up to counter then you can now zoom all your forces up close to that half and see how half his army does against your full force.

Also I highly recommend getting LoS blocking terrain on the board against Tau.

Hopefully some of this helps. Good luck.

 jhnbrg wrote:

I will try to inclue some shadow Weavers in the future.

And dont forget the D-Cannons! Lemme tell ya'. Nothing screws an enemy harder than grounding their Tyrant and then Distorting it out of existence. Or as happened in my last game: Distorting an unwounded Mephiston from existence.