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I see we're once again having the 'lasers in a fantasy setting' issue.

Assuming that megathuels do equate megajoules...

A single megajoule is the power of a one ton vehicle traveling 100 miles per hour. So a lasgun hits with the energy of a 30 ton tank traveling 100 mph...

Which would far exceed anything a bolter could put out as a .75 caliber solid/explosive rocket propelled anything. Though it would certainly vaporize people... and that dreadnought. And possibly the wall behind it.

Again, scifi/fantasy authors have no concept of scale.

 Daba wrote:
We know the 40k stats for a Lasgun and Autogun, and we know what an autogun represents (futuristic/better version of a modern assault rifle type firearm) so we know they are in the same ballpack of weaponry.

The Lasgun is probably favoured by Guard due to the targets needing better stopping power and long range shots over Autoguns which would be for human targets, but they are similar enough to be the same class of weapon whereas a Bolter has quite a bit more power.

An M60 direct analogue is the Heavy Stubber, which has more 'killing power' (due to a mix of continuous fire, rate of fire and stopping power combined) but is much less mobile.

No, an M2 is a heavy stubber.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaronIveagh wrote:
I see we're once again having the 'lasers in a fantasy setting' issue.

Assuming that megathuels do equate megajoules...

A single megajoule is the power of a one ton vehicle traveling 100 miles per hour. So a lasgun hits with the energy of a 30 ton tank traveling 100 mph...

Which would far exceed anything a bolter could put out as a .75 caliber solid/explosive rocket propelled anything. Though it would certainly vaporize people... and that dreadnought. And possibly the wall behind it.

Again, scifi/fantasy authors have no concept of scale.

Lasers are monstrously inefficient kill mechanisms, you'd need multiple megajoules to kill a person where a bullet can subsist with kilojoules.

Ok, I now did the research.

I've just given up hope on such a weapon system even remotely making sense in anything short of Heinlein (i.e. a dedicated sci-fi writer who did the research).

Just to clear it up for some people who might be curious. A reasonable weaponized laser would work in short pulses, and it wouldn't cut. It would direct so much energy onto the target that a localized portion of the target (i.e. a hole about fist sized more than likely) explodes into mist. Some undetermined amount of time later (long enough for the mist to clear out enough for the beam not to get distorted) the laser pulses again and another hole appears (or most likely the existing hole gets deeper since the pulses are most likely spaced out substantially less than a second).

Surprisingly, we actually have energy storage tech at present day technology almost good enough to make a laser power pack work, but they aren't rechargeable yet (this fact quite frankly amazed me, I always thought the main thing stopping laser weapons from ever working would be energy storage). And you can always direct the energy into a capacitor at the expense of slowing rate of fire (I bet you could even do multiple capacitor banks in parallel to improve rate of fire at the expense of more weight).

Sorry, I'm a "hard science fiction" nerd. Comes of being an aerospace engineer. I try to keep up with how probable "future tech" is of ever actually happening.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, a 20 megawatt laser (i.e. 20 megajoules per second) is currently the main armament of a converted Boeing 747 used to potentially shoot down missiles by overheating them. So if we go with the "thoule" actually being a reasonable unit of measurement then a lasgun is able to direct the same amount of energy as a device about the size of a 747 (the interior is full of laser components). Also our current lasers aren't actually that impressive, since they spread that energy out over the whole second rather than releasing it in a pulse fractions of a second long, so they pretty much work by just heating up the target enough to catch it on fire after a few seconds in the beam.

I honestly don't know much about laser physics/operation (I always shy away from them and use coilguns since they make more sense to me) but that seems like we have a lot of catching up to do.

 Kain wrote:

 Daba wrote:
We know the 40k stats for a Lasgun and Autogun, and we know what an autogun represents (futuristic/better version of a modern assault rifle type firearm) so we know they are in the same ballpack of weaponry.

The Lasgun is probably favoured by Guard due to the targets needing better stopping power and long range shots over Autoguns which would be for human targets, but they are similar enough to be the same class of weapon whereas a Bolter has quite a bit more power.

An M60 direct analogue is the Heavy Stubber, which has more 'killing power' (due to a mix of continuous fire, rate of fire and stopping power combined) but is much less mobile.

No, an M2 is a heavy stubber.

Can one person pick up and hold an M2 and fire it from the hip?

Because Heavy Stubbers cover weapons that fall in that category (Necromunda).

They are probably two ends of the scale that 'Heavy Stubber' covers.

 Daba wrote:
Even today, a battle rifle is generally more powerful per shot (in terms of energy) than an assault rifle, but both are used depending on situation.

DPS is not yet a major factor in modern military thinking...

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
If I recall correctly, the old 3rd Ed. Guard Codex said that the normal power setting was 17 "megathules" which of course is a random-word from the fluff.

If we make the (admittedly dubious) step of equating "megathules" to "megajoules" then that would place the mid-range setting on a Cadian lasrifle at about the same energy as the muzzle energy of a .50 BMG round.

Don't also forget that the lasguns can be dialed in power, as well as firing substantially more rounds with substantially less recoil from a substantially smaller platform with substantially better accuracy than a .50 BMG rifle.

They're actually quite scary weapons IMO.


EDIT: WAIT OH HOLY feth - the .50 BMG only outputs 17 KILOJOULES of energy. So either a lasgun is three orders of magnitude more powerful than a .50 BMG or "megathules" is a meaningless word.

Probably the latter. My bad. Sorry lads.

thule is most likely equal to a joule. Its simply been 40kified.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daba wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Daba wrote:
We know the 40k stats for a Lasgun and Autogun, and we know what an autogun represents (futuristic/better version of a modern assault rifle type firearm) so we know they are in the same ballpack of weaponry.

The Lasgun is probably favoured by Guard due to the targets needing better stopping power and long range shots over Autoguns which would be for human targets, but they are similar enough to be the same class of weapon whereas a Bolter has quite a bit more power.

An M60 direct analogue is the Heavy Stubber, which has more 'killing power' (due to a mix of continuous fire, rate of fire and stopping power combined) but is much less mobile.

No, an M2 is a heavy stubber.

Can one person pick up and hold an M2 and fire it from the hip?

Because Heavy Stubbers cover weapons that fall in that category (Necromunda).

They are probably two ends of the scale that 'Heavy Stubber' covers.

Maybe, but the in-game heavy stubber is an M2. Both visually and per the fluff.

Well, a lasgun would be extremely powerful if it existed today and IG flak armor would be impenetrable to most assault rifles today.

Not necessarily.

Armor to stop energy based weapons and kinetic impacts would be totally different. Its also the same reason Kevlar does feth all against knives. A different threat requires a different material.

Flak armor is probably no better against kinetic rounds than some of our more advanced body armor today. With some additional protection against energy weapons.

The heavy duty military lasers tend to be chemical lasers rather than purely electrically powered.

IMO a Lasgun would be like a arge magazine assualt rifle firing magnum bullets.

Unit1126PLL wrote:If I recall correctly, the old 3rd Ed. Guard Codex said that the normal power setting was 17 "megathules" which of course is a random-word from the fluff.

Wasn't that from Black Library's Uplifting Primer?
In any way, I'd really recommend against attempts to "convert" something that detailed. Imho, it's totally cool to look for general comparisons in real life examples (I do that, too), but once you delve into stuff where you need formulas and charts, it invariably devolves into an argument between people who cling to different ways of interpretation, and you can't really move anywhere because at the end of the day "megathule" is, as you said, quite possibly just a random word.

I cringe every time I see threads where people try to come up with intricate formulas to show why an Imperial Star Destroyer would outgun the Enterprise or the other way around etc. Once you go cross-setting, all bets are off, because we just don't have a primer for accurate conversions. This includes the setting known as "real life". It's like trying to make sense of Egyptian hieroglyphs without the Rosetta Stone.

Unit1126PLL wrote:Don't also forget that the lasguns can be dialed in power

Depending on the source of fluff... Some, such as FFG's Only War, tell you that every lasgun has this feature. Others, such as GW's Inquisitor or the 5E Guard Codex, describe this to be a special feature of the Triplex-pattern.

Daba wrote:The Lasgun is probably favoured by Guard due to the targets needing better stopping power and long range shots over Autoguns which would be for human targets, but they are similar enough to be the same class of weapon whereas a Bolter has quite a bit more power.

In the books I've read, it's always been described as a logistical issue. Lasguns rarely suffer from ammunition shortage (plugging the battery into a mobile generator vs shipping in specially manufactured bullets crafted thousands of light years away from the warzone) and they are said to require very little maintenance. The latter is super important when you consider that these guns are also handed to feral worlders whose only knowledge of ranged weapons so far was focused on bow and arrow.

dementedwombat wrote:A reasonable weaponized laser would work in short pulses, and it wouldn't cut. It would direct so much energy onto the target that a localized portion of the target (i.e. a hole about fist sized more than likely) explodes into mist.

Isn't this how it's described in the sources? Mind you, I am interpreting "cutting" not as a clean cut but rather a brute punch through something. Essentially, it's just called "cutting" because it leaves a hole. After all, the fluff specifically refers to "exploding wounds", and this is the only way I could make sense of both terms being used.

dementedwombat wrote:Sorry, I'm a "hard science fiction" nerd. Comes of being an aerospace engineer. I try to keep up with how probable "future tech" is of ever actually happening.

I think I've said that before, but I can see actual scientific knowledge being a huge fun-killer when reading up on sci-fi settings. In a way, I pity you. Then again, you probably get paid even more than me, and can play Kerbal Space Program IRL.

Daba wrote:They are probably two ends of the scale that 'Heavy Stubber' covers.

Probably.

Also, hip-firing does not necessarily need to be an indicator of a weapon's damage when we consider the possibility of futurespace lightweight materials and recoil compensation.
Though to be fair, Necromunda Heavies easily look like bodybuilders.

Grey Templar wrote:Flak armor is probably no better against kinetic rounds than some of our more advanced body armor today. With some additional protection against energy weapons.

Mhm, hard to say - but of course it also depends upon which sources we'd inspect. From GW's own fluff:

"This is a common type of body armour often worn by civilians with dangerous manual jobs. It has an outer layer of ablative material. If struck by an energy weapon this will burn away, dissipating most of the damaging heat. The middle layer comprises a honeycomb of interconnected air bubbles, which absorb the energy of a physical blow. The inner lining is a special, thick plastic. Under normal conditions this is fairly pliable, somewhat like canvas, but it responds to physical pressure by becoming hard and tough. It is very effective at stopping shots already slowed down by the outer layers."
- 1E Rulebook

"Flak armour comprises several layers of different ablative and impact absorbent materials which should absorb the majority of energy from a shot or blow. The protection it offers against a direct hit is somewhat questionable at the best of times, but it is more effective against proximity blasts and the shrapnel from explosions. Flak armour does have the advantage of being vastly cheap and easy to produce, requiring a very low technology base."
- 2E Wargear


Also, hello and welcome, Pendix!

 Lynata wrote:


I cringe every time I see threads where people try to come up with intricate formulas to show why an Imperial Star Destroyer would outgun the Enterprise or the other way around etc. Once you go cross-setting, all bets are off, because we just don't have a primer for accurate conversions. This includes the setting known as "real life". It's like trying to make sense of Egyptian hieroglyphs without the Rosetta Stone.

Well... *que Mythbusters Theme*

We do have a description of the injury pattern a lasgun makes (which is described as a 'through and through' cauterized hole with little bleeding. So to know how powerful it is, we'd only need to know how powerful a weapon would have ot be burn a neat round hole in someone at 500 yards in an atmospheric pressure of about 65 N and one standard G.

We'd also need to know how to make a neat round hole in someone that burns through without exploding them.

One of the problems with the 'laser exploding flesh' idea is that the required duration is too long for be accurate at range. Remember that if your duration is too short, you can dump a huge amount of power into someone and have them survived. A direct lightening strike is survivable, for example, despite dumping tetrajoules of energy and 50k degree plasma on top that.

YAL-1, the flying 747 Laser, does NOT burn through it's targets, (nor do most anti-missile lasers) but instead causes structural failure in the missile by heating a small portion of it's exterior unevenly. In a high stress area, this causes the missile to crumple. By way of comparison, the Navy recently tested an anti-small boat laser. While it does work, it took a (comparatively) long time to set gas tanks of a fairly standard zodiac on fire

Uh-oh.

Being a noob in thermodynamics ... technically, it's just a question of energy, though, right? The beam's only required effect is that it must heat the surface of the impact area to "very very hot" within "the blink of an eye".

I have no idea if it's as simple as that, but it sounds at least theoretically plausible for me. If rather impractical, given the likely amounts of energy involved, following your explanation of a lightning bolt's impact.

 Lynata wrote:
Uh-oh.

Being a noob in thermodynamics ... technically, it's just a question of energy, though, right? The beam's only required effect is that it must heat the surface of the impact area to "very very hot" within "the blink of an eye".

I have no idea if it's as simple as that, but it sounds at least theoretically plausible for me. If rather impractical, given the likely amounts of energy involved, following your explanation of a lightning bolt's impact.

Well.... the problem is that the body need to be exposed to the energy for enough time to do damage. The heat generated by a lightening strike is actually enough to turn gas to plasma. But it happens over such a short duration that you'll see some internal burns, etc, but to get the sort of instant vaporization of human flesh requires either requires more time, or more energy than is required to heat a 70% nitrogen gas mix to the same temperature as the surface of the sun. Only about 20-30% of lightening strikes world wide are fatal.

The vaporization point of human flesh is 6k degrees kelvin, so it depends on how much mass you're vaporizing.

So, let's vaporize 1/4th of a human being and remember that this is against an average sized naked target standing there.

1/4 human body = 25000 grams = 4500 moles = 2.7 x 10^27 atoms
Vaporization = 6000 kelvins = 0.5 eV/atom
Vaporization 1/4 human body = 1.35x10^27 eV = 2.2x10^8 joules = 220 megajoule (some sources cite 160mj but this ignores bones, etc)
Instantly: 0.05 second = 50 milliseconds
Vaporization 1/4 human body Instantly = 4.4x10^9 watts = 4.4 gigawatts!

Seems like a ton of energy for the same basic effect that a couple grains of black powder and an ounce of lead can accomplish.

The only reason it would be efficient is because of logistics. Its easier to provide constant power to recharge a powerpack than it is to transport a bullet.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Seems like a ton of energy for the same basic effect that a couple grains of black powder and an ounce of lead can accomplish.

The only reason it would be efficient is because of logistics. Its easier to provide constant power to recharge a powerpack than it is to transport a bullet.

Not in these quantities. The whole 'laspacks recharge in sunlight/thrown in a fire' thing goes right out the window. Just to charge a single lasgun pack we're talking the sort of power output reserved for nuclear fission piles and theoretical fusion reactors. A leman russ engine would be expending thousands of times more energy to fire it's lascannon than it would to move the tank.

It's a weapon form 38000 years in the future, invented at least, 20 000 years prior during some techno enlighten/'dark' age..of course it is more powerful that today's weapons...I'm pretty sure autoguns and such are even stronger than modern one thanks to sci-fi materials, the only reason why they appear to suck in 40k it's because of two reasons:

1-There's more powerful, but more complicated (to an extent), weaponry available, like boltguns, Eldar shuriken weapons, Ork shootas (the ladder being merely bieng build big and loud and shooty)
2-Weaponry took a step forward, so did armour. Fire a modern M-16 at a Guardsman's flak Armour, it might only scratch the finish off it as, like the lasgun, is a piece of armour form 38 000 years in the future.

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
It's a weapon form 38000 years in the future, invented at least, 20 000 years prior during some techno enlighten/'dark' age..of course it is more powerful that today's weapons...I'm pretty sure autoguns and such are even stronger than modern one thanks to sci-fi materials, the only reason why they appear to suck in 40k it's because of two reasons:

1-There's more powerful, but more complicated (to an extent), weaponry available, like boltguns, Eldar shuriken weapons, Ork shootas (the ladder being merely bieng build big and loud and shooty)
2-Weaponry took a step forward, so did armour. Fire a modern M-16 at a Guardsman's flak Armour, it might only scratch the finish off it as, like the lasgun, is a piece of armour form 38 000 years in the future.

Jex, the problem with that entire argument is twofold:


The first and simplest is that we know the stats of blackpowder muskets and knives, in setting. Since they can, if well wielded (or well rolled) puncture flak, then, no, there are no magic super materials involved.

Second, the Bolt Gun is actually much, much simpler than a lasgun. It is basically a slightly more advanced large caliber gyrojet gun. That's all it is, for all the magic importance that 40k puts on them, they're actually much simpler that the mechanics of a lasgun would be. You can build one now, if you have the money. A lasgun you cannot.

The other problem is still that to get that sort of power out of a lasgun powerpack, you wouldn't need generators, or engines, because a single powerpack would have more than enough power to move a 60 ton leman russ tank for over 100 years. However, you'd have to hook your lasgun charger up to a Starship with it's Km long plasma drives to recharge it. The whole 'throw it in the fire to charge it' thing would never work, because no normal camp fire puts out enough power to ever charge it.

The bolt's technology is not the gun per se, but the bolt proper, which is hard to manufacture.

and again, sci-fi magic material allows one to recharge a pack in a fire.

As for the muskets puncturing flak, well, it's a RPG: and besides, primitive weaponry doubles the armour rating of non primitive armour. A Mook with a musket will do 1 to 0 wounds on a average Guardsman when doing maximum damage.

When.

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
The bolt's technology is not the gun per se, but the bolt proper, which is hard to manufacture.

and again, sci-fi magic material allows one to recharge a pack in a fire.

As for the muskets puncturing flak, well, it's a RPG: and besides, primitive weaponry doubles the armour rating of non primitive armour. A Mook with a musket will do 1 to 0 wounds on a average Guardsman when doing maximum damage.

When.

*sigh* Well, yes, they're hard to manufacture in the sense that the 40k writer made the explosive in them hydrogen gas, because he didn't bother to find out what deuterium was. Effectively though, it's a .75 dumdum round. GW used a lot of fancy words to describe it, but that's really all the basic bolter round is. You can make this yourself with a solid shotgun slug and some knowledge of making your own ammo. The only time it turns sci-fi is some of the more ultra rare rounds.

And, no, it's just magic, there's no sci-fi to it. You're violating some of the most basic laws of physics without even the fig leaf of, say, anti-gravity technology. The fluff claims it's a super efficient capacitor. Ok, that's fine, but capacitors don't normally create energy out of thin air, so to speak. And if they do, why bother with plasma drives? Why not run your space ship off a huge battery of lasgun packs and a hamster in a wheel? Your explanation lacks internal consistency.


And he still does that 0-1 points of damage (out of a max of 25). Which puts flak on par with modern bulletproof vests.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
The bolt's technology is not the gun per se, but the bolt proper, which is hard to manufacture.

and again, sci-fi magic material allows one to recharge a pack in a fire.

As for the muskets puncturing flak, well, it's a RPG: and besides, primitive weaponry doubles the armour rating of non primitive armour. A Mook with a musket will do 1 to 0 wounds on a average Guardsman when doing maximum damage.

When.

*sigh* Well, yes, they're hard to manufacture in the sense that the 40k writer made the explosive in them hydrogen gas, because he didn't bother to find out what deuterium was. Effectively though, it's a .75 dumdum round. GW used a lot of fancy words to describe it, but that's really all the basic bolter round is. You can make this yourself with a solid shotgun slug and some knowledge of making your own ammo. The only time it turns sci-fi is some of the more ultra rare rounds.

And, no, it's just magic, there's no sci-fi to it. You're violating some of the most basic laws of physics without even the fig leaf of, say, anti-gravity technology. The fluff claims it's a super efficient capacitor. Ok, that's fine, but capacitors don't normally create energy out of thin air, so to speak. And if they do, why bother with plasma drives? Why not run your space ship off a huge battery of lasgun packs and a hamster in a wheel? Your explanation lacks internal consistency.


And he still does that 0-1 points of damage (out of a max of 25). Which puts flak on par with modern bulletproof vests.

This is the same setting where a god made out of people hitting things angrily craps out little red rage men wielding swords of hate riding on metal rhinos formed out of frustration who can crush a liquid.

Where does physics come it?

Here is my 2 Imperial cents.

Realist Answer: We can't manufacture lasgun on the 40k universe scale, if we could it would not be for a loooong time.

OP Answer: whatever it says in the BRB is how strong it is.

Sarcastic Answer: 28mm models carrying little lasguns can break skin if you step down on them at the right angle and force.

 Kain wrote:

This is the same setting where a god made out of people hitting things angrily craps out little red rage men wielding swords of hate riding on metal rhinos formed out of frustration who can crush a liquid.

Where does physics come it?

Suspension of disbelief.

Somethings that can be explained with the 'Warp' as a unifying concept in the fictional setting are far easier to accept than something that breaks the mould without any link to the Warp whatsoever.

 Daba wrote:

 Kain wrote:

This is the same setting where a god made out of people hitting things angrily craps out little red rage men wielding swords of hate riding on metal rhinos formed out of frustration who can crush a liquid.

Where does physics come it?

Suspension of disbelief.

Somethings that can be explained with the 'Warp' as a unifying concept in the fictional setting are far easier to accept than something that breaks the mould without any link to the Warp whatsoever.

Then allow me to change my answer.

This is the same setting where Evil Star Vampires can kill you with particles not allowed to interact with normal matter, make the equivalent of a messy room into an instant death trap, and play pinball with a black hole until an entire solar system is destroyed.

Where does physics come in?

 Kain wrote:

 Daba wrote:

 Kain wrote:

This is the same setting where a god made out of people hitting things angrily craps out little red rage men wielding swords of hate riding on metal rhinos formed out of frustration who can crush a liquid.

Where does physics come it?

Suspension of disbelief.

Somethings that can be explained with the 'Warp' as a unifying concept in the fictional setting are far easier to accept than something that breaks the mould without any link to the Warp whatsoever.

Then allow me to change my answer.

This is the same setting where Evil Star Vampires can kill you with particles not allowed to interact with normal matter, make the equivalent of a messy room into an instant death trap, and play pinball with a black hole until an entire solar system is destroyed.

Where does physics come in?

Yeah, C'Tan also suck.

 Daba wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Daba wrote:

 Kain wrote:

This is the same setting where a god made out of people hitting things angrily craps out little red rage men wielding swords of hate riding on metal rhinos formed out of frustration who can crush a liquid.

Where does physics come it?

Suspension of disbelief.

Somethings that can be explained with the 'Warp' as a unifying concept in the fictional setting are far easier to accept than something that breaks the mould without any link to the Warp whatsoever.

Then allow me to change my answer.

This is the same setting where Evil Star Vampires can kill you with particles not allowed to interact with normal matter, make the equivalent of a messy room into an instant death trap, and play pinball with a black hole until an entire solar system is destroyed.

Where does physics come in?

Yeah, C'Tan also suck.

Without them the backstory of the Necrons flat out doesn't work. And without the Necrons you invalidate the Orks and Eldar as their backstories are inexorably tied to the Necrons as both are bioweapons made purely to fight them.

Congratulations, now the Game is just Tau, Imperials, Tyranids, and Chaos.

Actually scratch Chaos, the warp only became what it is because of the War in heaven.

So now the game is just Tau, Imperials, and Tyranids.

No wait, scratch that. The Imperium wouldn't exist without Chaos breaking DAoT mankind.

So it's just Tau and Tyranids.

Better tell 80% of the player base to destroy their models because they're no longer valid.

 Kain wrote:


Without them the backstory of the Necrons flat out doesn't work. And without the Necrons you invalidate the Orks and Eldar as their backstories are inexorably tied to the Necrons as both are bioweapons made purely to fight them.

Congratulations, now the Game is just Tau, Imperials, Tyranids, and Chaos.

The Eldar and Orks existed in the game with great background years before the Necrons were introduced.

It is the Necrons who should toe the line, not the old (classic?) elder races.

 Daba wrote:

 Kain wrote:


Without them the backstory of the Necrons flat out doesn't work. And without the Necrons you invalidate the Orks and Eldar as their backstories are inexorably tied to the Necrons as both are bioweapons made purely to fight them.

Congratulations, now the Game is just Tau, Imperials, Tyranids, and Chaos.

The Eldar and Orks existed in the game with great background years before the Necrons were introduced.

It is the Necrons who should toe the line, not the old (classic?) elder races.

Too bad that's the way it is, and given that the Necrons are one of the most popular armies around, it's how it will stay.

 Kain wrote:

 Daba wrote:

 Kain wrote:


Without them the backstory of the Necrons flat out doesn't work. And without the Necrons you invalidate the Orks and Eldar as their backstories are inexorably tied to the Necrons as both are bioweapons made purely to fight them.

Congratulations, now the Game is just Tau, Imperials, Tyranids, and Chaos.

The Eldar and Orks existed in the game with great background years before the Necrons were introduced.

It is the Necrons who should toe the line, not the old (classic?) elder races.

Too bad that's the way it is.

The Necrons and C'Tan could disappear tomorrow and the majority of Eldar and Ork background would remain intact and relevant.

Also, one of the C'Tan "Burning one" is likely a warp god anyway (who gave them good FTL access via hacking the Webway); the C'Tan aren't what the 3rd edition army book told you they were, and things are not as they seem with them.

 Daba wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Daba wrote:

 Kain wrote:


Without them the backstory of the Necrons flat out doesn't work. And without the Necrons you invalidate the Orks and Eldar as their backstories are inexorably tied to the Necrons as both are bioweapons made purely to fight them.

Congratulations, now the Game is just Tau, Imperials, Tyranids, and Chaos.

The Eldar and Orks existed in the game with great background years before the Necrons were introduced.

It is the Necrons who should toe the line, not the old (classic?) elder races.

Too bad that's the way it is.

The Necrons and C'Tan could disappear tomorrow and the majority of Eldar and Ork background would remain intact and relevant.

Also, one of the C'Tan "Burning one" is likely a warp god anyway (who gave them good FTL access via hacking the Webway); the C'Tan aren't what the 3rd edition rulebook told you they were, and things are not as they seem with them.

You're right, the C'tan are much stronger than they were in the 3rd edition rulebook since everything they did before the 5th edition retcon was now done by mere shards.

And as of IA12, the Necrons have Inertialess drives that while slower than webway travel, crap on Imperial Warp drives. The Dolmen gates are now riskier but faster travel used for emergencies.

Better tell all the Necron players to burn their models because you hate their fluff.

Don't like it? Ho-hum, go write fanfiction where the Necrons don't exist.

Wonder why I'm being like this? I find opinions that X army shouldn't be in 40k to be worthy only of contempt.