Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

DakkaDakka,

I'm excited to point out that I will be playing an Iyanden Army which mostly covers Wraith Contructs. All Wraith units have an higher than average Toughness Value but their important units like the Wraithlord do not have a Invul Save :(. I wonder if that was ever in the discussion with the Codex Writer and the Dev Team at GW??? Anyways, I'm fairly new to the whole 40K universe and have a few questions with the significance on Toughness Value. I plan on making my Wraithlord into my Warlord and am wondering if that is a good idea without an Invul Save???

Here are the majority of the questions that I have....
1. Am I reading the rules correctly by saying that the basic marine with a basic loadout would not be able to inflict a wound on the Wraithlord?
2. If a weapon is AP3 but the user is not strong enough to normally wound me then the AP Value would be negated?
3. If a Character has Fleshbane but not the strength to wound does the Character still wound on a 2+ and would I then take a wound?
4. Same thing for a weapon with Instant Kill. If not strong enough to kill me then can that weapon still Instant Kill me?
5. This is one is kinda a funny question but since my allies are Ravenwing....Can I potentially insta kill Azreal, Belial, or Sammaul if they fail their Invul Saves?

Thanks for the feedback,
Mr. Raynor

1-2 = If your weapon strenght is 4 less than the T, you can't do squat to the thing, regardless of AP

3 = Fleshbane doesn't give a feth and will wound you on a 2+ regardless

4= Depends on the strenght, as you need to inflict a wound to have the instant death rule apply

5= Do they have eternal warrior? No? Then you can, but you need an instant death weapon or a weapon that deals 2x their toughness, in that case str 8 weapons should, as far as I know.

1: S4 needs 4+ vs T4, 5+ vs T5, 6+ vs T6 and 6+ vs T7, so yes, a basic bolter-marine can't hurt a wraithlord (assuming they're still T8).
2: Yep. You don't roll armour saves against failed wounds, so the AP of the weapon doesn't matter.
3: Fleshbane ignores your toughness value completely. A S1 character with Fleshbane could wound Old One Eye (T9).
4: Instant Death requires a successful To Wound roll, which is S vs T unless the Instant Death weapon is also Fleshbane or Poisoned.
5: Unless they're Eternal Warrior, you can Instant Kill Azrael and Belial. Sammael is a jetbike, so he's T5 (unless you have Instant Death as an ability?)

I thought JB didn't increase the ID threshold? Or am I thinking of 5th ed again?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I thought JB didn't increase the ID threshold? Or am I thinking of 5th ed again?

You're thinking old rules. GW dropped the distinction between base toughness and bike related toughness bonus for ID.

Oh and also, Sammaul is Enternal Warrior as well....DUH!

So do ya'll think it would be a wise idea to run with a Wraithlord as your Warlord with no Invul? Didn't realize how powerful Toughness can be. So my Wraithlord w/Ghostglaive on the charge would be Str10, T8, and 4Attks with a Spiritseer behind him giving him potential wounds back! I think it's a power move put wouldn't mind a more experienced players adive

If I was gonna make a Wraith construct my Warlord I'd make it a Wraithknight. The Wraithlord's 3 wounds means it's going to be a tempting target for Krak Missiles, Lascannons and similar good-AP high strength anti-tank fire. The Wraithknight has a much more robust 6 wounds and can still get area cover (or a 5++) to negate some shots, and the risk of losing the model in one turn (meaning you won't have anything to give the wounds back to) is lower. It is a lot more expensive, but if you roll the 2+ armour Warlord trait it's going to be almost impossible to kill (and probably not worth the effort, even if it is the Warlord).

A 2+ Amour Save that is also a Warlord trait??? Is that in the Eldar Codex?

I think so, I'm pretty sure I've read that somewhere in an Eldar thread. I don't play them myself though, so I could be misremembering.

Standard Marines can wound a Wraithlord on a 6+ with Krak grenades.

There's a Warlord trait that allows the warlord to re-roll 1s for failed saves in Iyanden supplement. Not quite 2+, but not bad either.

EDIT: Actually, may be in the main book rather than Iyanden supplement.

 Daba wrote:
Standard Marines can wound a Wraithlord on a 6+ with Krak grenades.

There's a Warlord trait that allows the warlord to re-roll 1s for failed saves in Iyanden supplement. Not quite 2+, but not bad either.

EDIT: Actually, may be in the main book rather than Iyanden supplement.

This +1 - Krak grenades mean all marines can hurt a wraithlord. It also means they can't run away from combat either though - no 'our weapons are useless' for them.

That traits in the main book. Re-roll ones on failed armour saves. It's downright dirty if Asurmen gets it - 2+ with a re-roll as standard.

Take spiritseers - you can get 5 in for one HQ choice - they give out all the normal warlock buffs + voice of twilight so your wraithlords/guard etc get battle focus + furious charge.
There is a warlock power that gives +1 to your armour save/removes -1 from your opponants armour save - that might be what people were thinking of.

PredaKhaine wrote:

 Daba wrote:
Standard Marines can wound a Wraithlord on a 6+ with Krak grenades.

There's a Warlord trait that allows the warlord to re-roll 1s for failed saves in Iyanden supplement. Not quite 2+, but not bad either.

EDIT: Actually, may be in the main book rather than Iyanden supplement.

This +1 - Krak grenades mean all marines can hurt a wraithlord. It also means they can't run away from combat either though - no 'our weapons are useless' for them.

That traits in the main book. Re-roll ones on failed armour saves. It's downright dirty if Asurmen gets it - 2+ with a re-roll as standard.

Take spiritseers - you can get 5 in for one HQ choice - they give out all the normal warlock buffs + voice of twilight so your wraithlords/guard etc get battle focus + furious charge.
There is a warlock power that gives +1 to your armour save/removes -1 from your opponants armour save - that might be what people were thinking of.

Ah yes, it was in the main book.

Marines can still run away thanks to Combat Tictacs, unless they're playing one of the non-Ultra HQs or are DA/BA/SW.

The Warlock/Spiritseer power does do the improve armour save, and can get 2+ on Wraithguard or Scorpions and similar units, but you can only self-cast so can never cast it on a Wraithknight/Lord.