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Made in us
Ghastly Grave Guard





Cambridge, UK

 Aipoch wrote:
Here's my two cents on the WHFB game. An opinion is only as good as the bias behind it and the realm it comes from, so that being said, I play Skaven, High Elves, and Bretonnia, and consider WHFB to absolutely be a balanced game, the strategy component depending largely on the players and armies involved.

To start with, think about a game just about everyone is familiar with: baseball. Is it a game? Yes. Is it a sport? Yes. Is there strategy? Yes. Is it balanced? Depends.

That last question never come's up in a sport's argument. The game itself cannot be balanced, all it can hope to do is have a set of rules which are fair. It come's down to individual teams and their respective leadership which determines if a specific match is a balanced one. If I place my son's little league team up against the Cardinals, does that change the rules of the game? Are they any more or less fair? Of course not, the rules are the same for both teams, and they are fair. The balance and strategy issue is relative to the teams that took the field. No amount of clever strategy is going to change the fact that my sons team won't be able to hit the ball past the infield, or even hit the 80+ mph pitch coming their way.

This is the same for WHFB. The game comprises many different teams, each with their own unique spin on each of the games "positions". With few exceptions, every army will have the following: Combat characters, Wizard characters, Rank'n'file troops, Elite troops, Tactical units, Ranged units. That's it, those are your positions. How they get fielded, and in what amounts (if any) are up to you. If you decide that a certain position isn't needed, then you don't fill it. Maybe you don't care to take a block of archers, or maybe your ranged ability is just limited (WoC). Whatever the reason, the decision is usually entirely the players.

Where the decision is NOT the players is where the balance can be shifted too much if the specific army book is too old or too biased. As an example, take Dwarfs. No matter how cool a modeling opportunity it would be, you will not have a Wizard of any kind. This was balanced by your access to the strongest anti-magic ability of any army. Does this make for a balanced strategy game? Depends, are you playing against a magic-heavy High Elves player that brought Teclis, or are you up against a Skaven horde that didn't even take a wizard? Two viable options, two drastically different game's and strategies will be played.

The doom spells of 8th edition are the hard counter to massed units which would otherwise roam unchecked. However, it is your decision to place your expensive characters in your largest unit. Have you ever tried NOT placing your characters in the biggest blocks? If I'm looking at a unit of 50+ zombies staring me in the face, and another unit of 15 zombies with a character behind it, that really makes an opponent weight his options. Do I waste a big spell for the off-chance I snipe a character and maybe 4-5 other guys, and take the 50+ horde in the face?

And it is absolutely an off-chance. The spell has to go off, it has to not be dispelled, and the character has to fail his\her test, which for the majority of characters is a 1/3 chance. Does it still happen? Of course. Does it completely ruin the game? Depends, did you put all your eggs in one basket like a giddy little school-girl with a pretty new pet? If you took 500 points of lords and 500 points of hero's in a 2000 point game, you deserve to have a doom spell ruin your day; you gave your opponent no better choice. Do I spend the whole game trying to kill 5-6 units, or just try and kill 1 unit for a crushing amount of victory points?

I think this post has gone on long enough. Magic is powerful, but it is not all powerful. The game is balanced, the armies and their generals may not be. If you really want to try and play a balanced, fair game of WHFB, your best bet is to do open list building with your opponent prior to starting a battle. Alternate back and forth picking units to take. You pick a unit, opponent picks his counter. he picks a unit, you pick a counter. Continue until points are spent on both sides. This gives you the best possible chance of playing two armies which are designed to compete against eachother, not the warhammer world...because you are not fighting the world, you're fighting the army on the otherside of the table


Who is this post directed at? If it is directed at me, what is it in response to? I don't mean to sound harsh or something, but it seems like a long tirade about balance, which is a topic that I haven't really been concerned with.

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Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Space Marine of Slaanesh





Florida, USA

@Tangent, it was directed at your original post. I would have liked to simply say "Yes WHFB is a strategic game" and ended the post there, but that wouldn't do much to further the discussion, and is about as useful as a random person giving an unexplained opinion on an internet forum.

The tirade (I do apologize, but you are quite right in calling it such) is about balance, because I believe that is what you are concerned with. WHFB does have many random moments of chance; the entire game could be said to be a random one given the amount of dice rolled. However, the game is one of probablity, not chance. You are more likely to roll 7+ for your winds of magic than less. You are more likely to beat a unit of swordmasters with repeater crossbows shooting than you are with them in close combat. Etc.

This probability can be taken as random, but it is that very randomness which adds balance to the game. It prevents any one player from creating a repeatable "perfect storm" of an army, one that can never be beaten, that has no counter.

In direct response to your VC predicament, and your dislike of dependency on magic and single characters, you are playing the wrong army. VC are one of the races that really are magic and character dependent, there are other races that are not. Dwarfs, as an example, can do just fine without a megalord or wizard. They have outstanding basic leadership, and their core amd special units do the blunt of their damage. Skaven, while augmented by their leaders, do not rely on them for anything but a leadership bubble, and even without can still be a respectable Ld 8.

VC are a tricky army to play, and if you're against a smart opponent, your lord is always going to be very high on his target priority list, because he/she will know her chances of winning go WAY up when the lord goes down.

I can also agree that trying KoW is a great idea.

----Warhammer 40,000----
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Made in us
Ghastly Grave Guard





Cambridge, UK

I really don't care about balance. Do I prefer balance? Of course. But is a perceived lack of balance the reason why I'm starting to not like this game? No.

I think it's HEAVILY debatable that "random chance" adds any sort of balance whatsoever, but that's honestly neither here nor there. In fact, I think I even addressed this - a game is less strategic when there are more random elements, which essentially makes the game LESS balanced.

Further, my main issue is that the most powerful aspect of the game (magic) is the MOST random.

I don't want to come off as defensive, but people keep acting like I'm losing the vampire lord because he's being targetted because I MADE him a big target or something. That's NOT what's happening. I just want to be clear - I'm losing my vampire lord by miscasting on 2 dice, then rolling dimensional cascade, then rolling a 3. It has nothing to do with the choices my opponent is making, or the disadvantageous situations that he's putting me in. It's totally random and there's no counterplay. As I said, the magic phase is too important, so I can't even counterplay the risk by simply NOT casting spells - I MUST cast spells to win the game, and some of them require more than a 10+ to successfully cast, so I MUST use at least 2 dice.

Basically, the mechanics of the game force you to accept the risk of miscasts, and the VC army in particular at 2400 points is all but required to accept that risk on an extremely expensive model, the loss of which almost guarantees the loss of the game. There's no counterplay and it's frustrating to lose like that.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/07/19 09:59:36


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Made in au
Beast of Nurgle





WHFB at the end of the day is still a strategy game but unfortunately 8th edition seems to be swinging to a more 40k style game where randomness and dice rolls have too large an impact. A better and more strategic player shouldn't be losing games due to just rolling poorly.
Playing a VC army I can imagine would be a nightmare with 8th given how important and overpowered the magic phases are now. One bad magic phase and you could decimate your chances of winning.

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Made in us
Ghastly Grave Guard





Cambridge, UK

Well, to be honest, I don't feel like VC are as dependent on the magic phase as other armies, with the exception of the signature spell, maybe. VC has practically no access to the "big 6" spells, so getting and using them is rarely even a consideration. Add to this the fact that all of the 8th edition army books are really well balanced and VC just aren't at a disadvantage, and I wouldn't try to claim that they are. They're a tricky army to play and maybe a little more nuanced than other armies, but I like that. Unfortunately, that might mean that VC require a little more skill to play well.

I say "unfortunately" because if the army requires more skill to play well and you ARE able to outplay opponents and win games, it's even MORE frustrating to lose to a miscast.

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Pulsating Possessed Space Marine of Slaanesh





Florida, USA

 Tangent wrote:
Basically, the mechanics of the game force you to accept the risk of miscasts, and the VC army in particular at 2400 points is all but required to accept that risk on an extremely expensive model, the loss of which almost guarantees the loss of the game. There's no counterplay and it's frustrating to lose like that.


This is why your VC lord is targeted. If my Archmage is targeted and killed, I lose my strongest caster, but probably have a backup laying around, still have great standard leadership on all my units (even the eagles are Ld8), and suffer no additional ill effects.

When your VC lord goes down, you lose your strongest character, have below average standard leadership on your units, and if you don't have a secondary Lore of Vampires caster, your units begin to crumble. VC suffer more from a character loss than most armies, and a smart opponent will capitalize on this fact.

While not a complete counter or safeguard, taking a couple extra necromancers with the lore of vampires as a precaution against a crumbling army isn't very expensive at 2000+ games. Also, if you feel more protection is warranted, I'd suggest looking into the Earthing Rod for your lord.

As it is, your chances of rolling dimensional cascade are not exactly great. You have to roll IF to begin with, and then you have to roll a 2-4, and even then you have to roll a 1-3.

For your reference, I calculated the odds of your wizard being removed by dimensional cascade, based on the number of dice you throw at a spell.

1 dice: N/A
2 dice: 0.232%
3 dice: 0.618%
4 dice: 1.099%
5 dice: 1.635%
6 dice: 2.193%

You wouldn't throw your lord into a combat he has a less than 3% chance of winning, so why worry so much about something which has a less than 3% chance of happening to him?


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Made in us
Ghastly Grave Guard





Cambridge, UK

Because it's happened more than 3% of the time? And that can be the case because it's random. It has nothing to do with my skill. It has nothing to do with my opponent's skill. If I keep my lord out of combats that he has such a small chance of winning, that means I'm a good player. It's strategy and tactics that kept me out of that combat. It was my choice. I had control.

I really don't know what you're on about concerning the lord getting targetted. I don't mind if the lord gets targetted - that's the whole point. If he's worth a lot of victory points and is crucial to my army, I assume that my opponent's will target him. In fact, I count on it. I plan for it and around it. In my opinion, that's the whole point of playing the game.

What I keep trying to say is that he's not dying because my opponents are targetting him, and if he was, I wouldn't have started this thread. If he's dying because of mistakes I've made, that's the name of the game. I learn from them, get better, and play better next time, mitigating the consequences of my choices by adjusting my strategy.

He's dimensionally cascading on 2 dice. Outside of those deaths, I've lost my vampire lord maybe twice. One was to a charge from a Steam Tank with full steam points packed into movement (he died from crumble in the ensuing combat), and the other I can't remember the exact situation but I remember it was crumble that did him in.

In those cases, I got outplayed and lost the model because I made mistakes. When I die to dimensional cascade, I didn't get outplayed. I hit what you claim is a 0.232% chance to lose the game, 3 or 4 hours in, and all of my strategy was rendered moot. There is and was no counter-play, and that's literally the ONLY thing I care about.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/07/19 12:34:06


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Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Space Marine of Slaanesh





Florida, USA

I checked the numbers again, and on rolling 2 dice to cast a spell, you have a .232% chance of losing your wizard to dimensional cascade. Feel free to check the math at your leisure, and please correct me if the statistic is inaccurate.

I feel for you if that was the exact situation. When throwing two dice, no one plans for an IF, and most of the time they don't even want it. But it still has a 1/36 chance of happening. To have the tumbling effect of you lost your wizard from a miscast on two dice is exceedingly rare; I cannot recall a single time that has ever happened to me, with hundreds of 8th edition games under my belt with magic heavy armies. So do understand, I feel for ya.

Beyond the possible list additions previously mentioned and the probabilities offered for piece of mind, I can think of nothing further that might help ease your frustration with that particular mechanic of the game. Best I can say is maybe you can talk to your opponent and agree to an alternate rule on dimensional cascade, maybe rolling 1-3, you lose wizard levels as you do in 10-12, as well as take a wound with no save of any kind allowed. Still deadly, but does not have the ability to completely ruin a well played game by chance.

----Warhammer 40,000----
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Made in us
Ghastly Grave Guard





Cambridge, UK

No no, I believe you on the stats. I didn't mean for my use of the word "claim" to make it seem like I didn't. But really, it could be even smaller. The point is that it's not zero.

I can't believe it's never happened to you, but I guess that's the point, isn't it? It's random. I haven't played multiple hundreds of games like you have, but it's happened to me multiple times.

I love the fluff and atmosphere of VC, but man if they don't get screwed by miscasts.

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Pulsating Possessed Space Marine of Slaanesh





Florida, USA

I've suffered plenty of miscasts to be sure, but I can recall on a single hand how many times it has happened on rolling two dice, and from there I don't recall ever losing a wizard to dimensional cascade. When rolling more than 2 dice, sure it's happened. It's always a clutch moment of the game,and typically stands out as one of the more intense fate rolls of any battle, regardless of the army you play.

Definitely try out the earthing rod to help mitigate the potential of a mad miscast. It can work wonders to keep the game in your favor.

Keep at it. Unless your dice are cursed, more games should show you that your past experiences are very rare.

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Made in gb
Agile Revenant Titan




In the Casualty section of a Blood Bowl dugout

 Tangent wrote:
No no, I believe you on the stats. I didn't mean for my use of the word "claim" to make it seem like I didn't. But really, it could be even smaller. The point is that it's not zero.

I can't believe it's never happened to you, but I guess that's the point, isn't it? It's random. I haven't played multiple hundreds of games like you have, but it's happened to me multiple times.

I love the fluff and atmosphere of VC, but man if they don't get screwed by miscasts.

But WHFB is a tabletop board game. It uses dice. Therefore there is an element of luck in the game, and it cannot be removed. The strategy in WHFB comes in hinging the odds in your favour. My unit of 10 Dark Elf Spearmen could beat your unit of 18 Ogre Bulls in combat, and they could rout them and run them down. However, it's extremely unlikely and if I rely on these slim odds to win me games, I won't win many, and I'd be a poor General. If I hinged those odds in my favour and whittled your Ogre Bulls down to half the size, and instead put in their way a horde of 40 Corsairs boosted by Okkam's Mindrazor, I am far more likely to beat your unit. I'd be a good General for managing to set up this situation.

To be fair, your disappearing VC lord is something you can't do anything about. There is that 2.3% or whatever of him disappearing. Here, as a General, you must weigh up risk and reward. If you were to cast a spell with 6 dice, there is a small chance your VC lord will fade from existence, but you are far more likely to cast a spell that causes great harm to your opponent. Here, the great reward is more than worth the risk and you, as a good General, would probably take this risk. If however, the chance of your VC lord disappearing was 99%, you, as a good General, would probably not think that the reward was worth the huge risk. So, a good General will weigh up risk and reward and make the best decisions accordingly.

DT:90S+++G++MB++IPwhfb06#+++D+A+++/eWD309R+T(T)DM+

9th Age Fantasy Rules

 
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




I'm relatively new to warhammer, only about half a year playing. In that half a year time I have already been where you were at feeling that there is no strategy and all luck. However, my view changed completely when I finally played an opponent that was very very good.

Needless to say I got ROFLstomped despite getting very good rolls and him having terrible rolls in critical moments. This rearranged my thinking into understanding that warhammer IS a strategy game with a good amount of luck thrown in.

It's very similar to MTGO if you ever play that. As a player you will lose games because of luck. You will also win games because of luck. However a really good player can mitigate the luck to the greatest advantage they can gain from it. Like you said above, if you don't like the luck aspect, play chess or something similar.

 
   
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Pulsating Possessed Space Marine of Slaanesh





Florida, USA

This may sound a bit odd, but try and think of WHFB as blackjack, and you know how to count cards like a computer. That's the strategy that lets you keep the odds of winning in your favor.

However, it isn't going to stop the chance that the dealer gets something like 6 blackjacks in a row. Now that is very unlikely, and can definitely ruin your day if it does happen, but in the long run your superior strategy and increased odds WILL win out over many games.

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Made in us
Ghastly Grave Guard





Cambridge, UK

 The Shadow wrote:
 Tangent wrote:
No no, I believe you on the stats. I didn't mean for my use of the word "claim" to make it seem like I didn't. But really, it could be even smaller. The point is that it's not zero.

I can't believe it's never happened to you, but I guess that's the point, isn't it? It's random. I haven't played multiple hundreds of games like you have, but it's happened to me multiple times.

I love the fluff and atmosphere of VC, but man if they don't get screwed by miscasts.

But WHFB is a tabletop board game. It uses dice. Therefore there is an element of luck in the game, and it cannot be removed. The strategy in WHFB comes in hinging the odds in your favour. My unit of 10 Dark Elf Spearmen could beat your unit of 18 Ogre Bulls in combat, and they could rout them and run them down. However, it's extremely unlikely and if I rely on these slim odds to win me games, I won't win many, and I'd be a poor General. If I hinged those odds in my favour and whittled your Ogre Bulls down to half the size, and instead put in their way a horde of 40 Corsairs boosted by Okkam's Mindrazor, I am far more likely to beat your unit. I'd be a good General for managing to set up this situation.

To be fair, your disappearing VC lord is something you can't do anything about. There is that 2.3% or whatever of him disappearing. Here, as a General, you must weigh up risk and reward. If you were to cast a spell with 6 dice, there is a small chance your VC lord will fade from existence, but you are far more likely to cast a spell that causes great harm to your opponent. Here, the great reward is more than worth the risk and you, as a good General, would probably take this risk. If however, the chance of your VC lord disappearing was 99%, you, as a good General, would probably not think that the reward was worth the huge risk. So, a good General will weigh up risk and reward and make the best decisions accordingly.


And, once again, the point is missed.

Everything you mentioned in your first paragraph is under your control. I don't know how many times now that I've stated that this is fine - you try to tilt the odds in your favor, and your ability as a general is what helps you do that to varying degrees. I have no problem with this.

Everything you said in your second paragraph is completely irrelevant. What I keep saying is that there [i]is no choice[/]. Magic is so powerful that I can't NOT cast spells. The reward is so high that I'm FORCED to assume ANY risk that the rules place, because NOT casting spells as VC is a guaranteed loss. It's even worse if I don't spend the points on a level 4. Yes, being a good general is all about weighing risk versus reward and knowing when and when not to accept that risk. But the magic system takes all of that "generalship" away from you as VC by forcing you to cast spells. And I'm not casting on 6 dice - I'm casting on 2.

As a good general, I'm prohibited from weighing up the risk and reward and making the best decision accordingly. Instead, I'm forced into certain actions that have a non-zero probability of losing me the game outright. This is almost the antithesis of "risk vs reward" strategy.

@Nick - I don't think the game is entirely luck. The main point here, as you kind-of mentioned, is mitigation.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/20 08:58:23


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In the Casualty section of a Blood Bowl dugout

Ok, Tangent, that is a fair point, I'll admit. But...

You say that electing not to cast magic as a VC player is an auto-loss. I imagine that's somewhat of an exaggeration, but let's say you're looking at your army and your opponent's before the game. You may come to the conclusion that you're going to need magic to win the game and if you don't lose it there's a, say, 75% chance you'll lose. However, if you do cast magic, there's that 2.3% chance of your VC lord disappearing. So, you, as a good general, will take the option with the best risk:reward ratio, which is casting magic, as there is only a 2.3% of an "auto-loss".

I appreciate the point that you are, perhaps, taking too many chances in areas such as these, even if they are small but, to be honest, in a game with mechanics largely based around luck, that's hard to avoid. The good General will take the "best" risks, such as in the above example.

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Huge Bone Giant





Oakland, CA -- U.S.A.

It reads to me as something of an eggs-in-a-basket issue.

The problem is that chance can take so much from you.
That "so much" is a single model that performs well in all phases but shooting.
And it's downside is a 3% chance to die that you have happen too much?

Maybe I am mis-reading too.

I play Tomb Kings and can build lists something like that (Khalida was my first model), but I at least understand the underlying danger in it.

Other editions were much kinder on that kind of play, maybe the next will be too. But perhaps changing up a bit in the mean time would make it more fun.

Or perhaps I mis-read.

"It is not the bullet with your name on it that should worry you, it's the one labeled "To whom it may concern. . ."

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Nuremberg

If the pribability is 0.232%, and you cast say 4 times per turn on 2 dice, you,ve got just less than 6% chance of losing your caster in a 6 turn game. Taken over an entire game that is not insignificant, you are looki.g at losing him one game in 20.

   
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In the Casualty section of a Blood Bowl dugout

 Da Boss wrote:
If the pribability is 0.232%, and you cast say 4 times per turn on 2 dice, you,ve got just less than 6% chance of losing your caster in a 6 turn game. Taken over an entire game that is not insignificant, you are looki.g at losing him one game in 20.

Very true. But would you rather win those other 19 games by using the powerful magic your army has access to, or would you rather lose them all because you were too scared to do so?

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Houston

Its a poorly balanced strategy game, but can work effectively if both players are able to mutually agree to create lists of roughly equal power.

Fantasy: 4000 - WoC, 1500 - VC, 1500 - Beastmen
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Gimlet-Eyed Inquisitorial Acolyte





Just outside the gates of hell

I don't know anything about vampire counts so I ask..
Does your super killy lord have done the caster? Or can you take bare bones casters to take the risk and cast spells and make the fighter separate?
Why not take multiple level 2 wizards to give you access to all the spells you can't win without?

Dissent is not disloyalty.
Everyone is a genius, but if you judge a fish on its ability to climb a tree it will spend its whole life thinking it is stupid.


 
   
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Hacking Proxy Mk.1





Australia

Peasant wrote:
I don't know anything about vampire counts so I ask..
Does your super killy lord have done the caster? Or can you take bare bones casters to take the risk and cast spells and make the fighter separate?
Why not take multiple level 2 wizards to give you access to all the spells you can't win without?


You can take a Ghoul King (killy lvl1) and a Master necromancer (lvl 4) in a.. technically I think you can make them fit at 2000 but I wouldn't want to do it at less than 2400. Otherwise in smaller games you can take a Ghould King and Manfred (lvl 2 loremaster character)

 Fafnir wrote:
Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
 
   
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I feel for your vampire lord, I've seen it happen a few times and it's both tactically and emotionally crippling when it does, because of VC's unique dependence on magic and characters.

I hate to say 'bad luck' but the truth is GW just didn't get the 'randomness' balance right in every book, daemons being the other obvious example where magic is the main issue. If anything this is a problem with the VC book rather than the rules, as they are more vulnerable to randomness in magic. Although, in fairness, they are more reliant on low level spells that can be cast by committee than some other armies. So I would say don't lose heart in WHFB (or do, it's your money and free time to spend ), magic is random as hell, nothing you can do can stop your or your opponent's lvl 4 frying themselves or rolling six 1's on a make-or-break spell, and I won't spout list building platitudes to the contrary, it happens.

What I will say is that, as the BRB tells us, this is YOUR game, house rule it up! Mulligan re-rolls for each player (best suggestion in a current rules thread), ETC magic comp if you want magic toned down in general, or if mis-casts on vital characters is the main thing come to an agreement where he can take a wound or two instead of being sucked into the vortex (perhaps if you roll less than 4 dice to cast this could be in effect?). If it effects both players it won't unbalance anything too much.
   
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Los Angeles

Sorry, I haven't had time to go through the whole thread, but to address the OP -

I agree with you entirely. The magic phase is really what killed WHFB for me. Way, way too random for such a critical part of the game... that 400 point sorceror lord is either a god or a gimp depending on the vagaries of the die roll.

There are lots of things I don't like about 8th, but, they all added up to a game I simply lost interest in playing. Which is a shame. I started playing in 7th and have many fond memories. It was indeed a far deeper game back then.

Someone pointed out that the aesthetic of the game is beautiful, and I completely agree. I'm just too apathetic towards the game itself for the pageantry to sway me.

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Ghastly Grave Guard





Cambridge, UK

Thanks for the posts, guys.

The Shadow wrote:Ok, Tangent, that is a fair point, I'll admit. But...

You say that electing not to cast magic as a VC player is an auto-loss. I imagine that's somewhat of an exaggeration, but let's say you're looking at your army and your opponent's before the game. You may come to the conclusion that you're going to need magic to win the game and if you don't lose it there's a, say, 75% chance you'll lose. However, if you do cast magic, there's that 2.3% chance of your VC lord disappearing. So, you, as a good general, will take the option with the best risk:reward ratio, which is casting magic, as there is only a 2.3% of an "auto-loss".

I appreciate the point that you are, perhaps, taking too many chances in areas such as these, even if they are small but, to be honest, in a game with mechanics largely based around luck, that's hard to avoid. The good General will take the "best" risks, such as in the above example.


I've kind-of been waiting for someone to say this. To me, this argument basically boils down to, "You made the choice to play this game and those are the mechanics. Deal with it - there's only one good option in this case." And while that's true, it definitely doesn't make me appreciate WHFB. I don't expect to win - nor do I expect to lose. What I want is for my choices to have meaningful impact, and the balance is off, here. It isn't a 75% chance that I'll lose - it's a 2.3% chance that my choices will have no meaningful impact.

kirsanth wrote:It reads to me as something of an eggs-in-a-basket issue.

The problem is that chance can take so much from you.
That "so much" is a single model that performs well in all phases but shooting.
And it's downside is a 3% chance to die that you have happen too much?

Maybe I am mis-reading too.

I play Tomb Kings and can build lists something like that (Khalida was my first model), but I at least understand the underlying danger in it.

Other editions were much kinder on that kind of play, maybe the next will be too. But perhaps changing up a bit in the mean time would make it more fun.

Or perhaps I mis-read.


The only part you're missing is that I feel as though VC are at least partially forced into the eggs-in-one-basket issue. That's my main problem, and I see it as more of a BRB issue than a VC issue in the sense that the mechanics of magic are handled poorly.

Da Boss wrote:If the pribability is 0.232%, and you cast say 4 times per turn on 2 dice, you,ve got just less than 6% chance of losing your caster in a 6 turn game. Taken over an entire game that is not insignificant, you are looki.g at losing him one game in 20.


It's happening more often to me than that.

The Shadow wrote:
 Da Boss wrote:
If the pribability is 0.232%, and you cast say 4 times per turn on 2 dice, you,ve got just less than 6% chance of losing your caster in a 6 turn game. Taken over an entire game that is not insignificant, you are looki.g at losing him one game in 20.

Very true. But would you rather win those other 19 games by using the powerful magic your army has access to, or would you rather lose them all because you were too scared to do so?


The assumption being that you're guaranteed to win those other 19 games? I certainly don't, but I learn from each one that I lose... except that 1 game in 20. It's like playing in a 20-game tournament where you, and no one else, starts the tournament with a loss before you've even played. There's something wrong with that.

Peasant wrote:I don't know anything about vampire counts so I ask..
Does your super killy lord have done the caster? Or can you take bare bones casters to take the risk and cast spells and make the fighter separate?
Why not take multiple level 2 wizards to give you access to all the spells you can't win without?


At 2400 points, not having a level 4 for dispelling purposes is a huge disadvantage. Further, making the fighter separate at 2400 points is really hard for VC.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/22 11:43:01


1500
500
Vampire Counts 2400
300
Circle Orboros 20 
   
Made in us
Gimlet-Eyed Inquisitorial Acolyte





Just outside the gates of hell

Unfortunately my gaming group is quite small so there is a chance (highly probable) that we are missing things but the vast majority of our games are close.
Sometime the opponent gets his Lvl 4 sucked into the warp but the games still stay close.
Even the big six's don't sway the game every time. 9 out of 10 games there is only a few hundred points between us.

I am new to the internet players but it seems that many of them hate the luck aspects but many play their armies in an army that requires large amounts of luck to win. Any time an army requires getting off a spell you have predestined your win on luck and the dice more than your tactics and strategy.
I hear about people base their whole army on getting Mindrazor off...if that's what they need just put all your efforts into stopping the spell, avoid and slow the unit he needs to cast it on and continue as normal.
Take a dispel scroll (of course) for the time that the spell really needs to be stopped ..get a feed back scroll or Save your dice to stop the big one that matters..he probably doesn't care about any other spells. Sure he will get irresistible force sometime but he will roll on the miscast too. Take hex and feedback scroll.
An all eggs in one basket player has no secrets. You can see the big basket and if it doesn't do anything they will lose.
It's not fool proof and there are always what if's or he has this but IMHO there are plenty of tactics in the game and I am not that concerned with the magic phase.

Dissent is not disloyalty.
Everyone is a genius, but if you judge a fish on its ability to climb a tree it will spend its whole life thinking it is stupid.


 
   
 
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