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 Zweischneid wrote:

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
I love the IDEA of Allies. IG working with Space Marine support is awesome to be able to field on the tabletop for that great feel of an important battle.

Well, I love the IDEA of outlandish combinations.

There's no creative effort involved in running Space Marines + IG or Chaos Marines + Daemons.

I like to see people go the extra mile to make the unexpected options work, both in the game and in the background.

So you love the idea of Necrons and CSM fielded together simply for the spam of very effective flyers?

If so, we are of VERY different ideas on what is 'fun'.

Not discounting your fun, but breaking the fluff of the game in half to win a tournament doesn't seem like much fun to me. If I played the game to be competitive and didn't care about the universe I was playing in, I could do such a thing. But I play 40k not for something competitive to do (that's what sports are for in my little world), but to immerse myself into the fluff and enjoy a game.

Hence I posted pages back this is just a fight between two different viewpoints; the "fluff bunnies," versus "WAAC," players

It's not cheating. It's all about how it's used and how your opponent perceives it. Don't call something you don't like cheating when it's the rulebook.

And you gotta laugh at folks talking about the spirit of the game. That's been long dead. It's the spirit of making money, now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hence I posted pages back this is just a fight between two different viewpoints; the "fluff bunnies," versus "WAAC," players

It's not cheating. It's all about how it's used and how your opponent perceives it. Don't call something you don't like cheating when it's the rulebook.

And you gotta laugh at folks talking about the spirit of the game. That's been long dead. It's the spirit of making money, now.

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
So you love the idea of Necrons and CSM fielded together simply for the spam of very effective flyers?
If so, we are of VERY different ideas on what is 'fun'.
Not discounting your fun, but breaking the fluff of the game in half to win a tournament doesn't seem like much fun to me. If I played the game to be competitive and didn't care about the universe I was playing in, I could do such a thing. But I play 40k not for something competitive to do (that's what sports are for in my little world), but to immerse myself into the fluff and enjoy a game.

Uhm..
1. Necron do not spam Flyers because they are effective for their points.
They spam them because it's a good way to capture objectives in the last turn, people hardly care about that.
If I kick my opponent's ass all game long and he manages to win because he 'steals' the objective at the end, then I am going to walk away feeling like a winner.
2. Who decides what "breaking the fluff" is?
The rulebook says that Crons and CSM can work together, the book is the fluff. So them working together is considered fluff.
It takes me 5 minutes to think up a scenario where they work together: That's what narrative gaming is all about.

Agree with the idea that if it is in the rules it is not cheating.

The only way I could see something not being in the "spirit" of the game is when I see a poorly worded rule that is in desperate need of an update (the intent is clear by example but the wording butchers it) and have to bite my tongue until that time comes.

Allies allow fun fluff and more elements to hammer the enemy, win-win right?

Allies is the by far the dumbest idea GW has put into print in a long time. Its just so shoe horned in with little to no thought of how it would effect the gaming environment. Nothing stopped people from running duel lists before. 1000 points of this and 1000 points of that vs 2000 points of something else. It was the exact same thing, except it didn't have the stupid matrix.

However, what it did have more or less was opponents permission, if you thought something was stupid or an obvious power play you could always refuse by stating the points limits restriction or just go with it. The choice was yours, now you really can't say no (especially in a tournament) because its by definition legal.

It can be fuffy, it can be narrative, but most often its just bringing more cheap power to already over powered lists. If its so narrative, why doesn't anyone bring the "bad" units from the allied army. Why is it always the most point efficient/powerful units? Arn't (insert bad IG unit here) just as fluffy to be backing up (insert SM faction here) as the power blob and vendettas? After all, your using allies for fluff reasons and not power right?

I love allies and how it works mechanically. I love to ally my SOB with my Imperial Fists and will love to try IG allies. CSM are made to go with IG and Demons. A Word Bearer army without traitor guard? Perish the thought.

What I don't like is the nonsensical chart they made. So, space marines will ally with Necrons before SOB? Really? Were they smoking crack when they came up with that? Other than that, I love it! But I go back to Rogue Trader so I'm used to the whole allies thing.

I like allies in principle. However they are poorly executed.

The ally mechanism exists just to get around the FOC, allowing double HQ. Players do not pick their allies based on how they look, they cherry pick the best characters and units, allowing at timed some ridiculous combinations that were meant not to be.

More thought should have been put to that than just generate a silly matrix, which doesn't sometimes make a whole lot of sense.

All that being said, as a Blood Angels player I have decided to take Eldar or Tau allies (cherry picking the best choices).

I don't use allies. I think it's dumb.

But then again I mostly play Orks and Eldar. If I had CSM I'd probably use IG but only to use as more effective cultists and LRBT look cool.

In my imaginary world of space orcs and elves I just don't see them teaming up with space undead or space daemons... or buzzlightyears and evil buzzlightyears.

But orks work very well with necron as ally. , so why not use them?

Naw wrote:
I like allies in principle. However they are poorly executed.

The ally mechanism exists just to get around the FOC, allowing double HQ. Players do not pick their allies based on how they look, they cherry pick the best characters and units, allowing at timed some ridiculous combinations that were meant not to be.

More thought should have been put to that than just generate a silly matrix, which doesn't sometimes make a whole lot of sense.

All that being said, as a Blood Angels player I have decided to take Eldar or Tau allies (cherry picking the best choices).

Oowh, but I do! So your statement is wrong.
I always look at the models first, if I like them I read the fluff and only then do I read the codex and the rules.
I've taken Tau-allies because I like the Tau, I hardly care about their rules. As long as it's not complete suckage, I will play the army I like.

IMO i only would do 2 armys if they were the same race, IE SM and IG, or ELdar and dark eldar, orks and CSM or CSM and demons, i think its a fluff thing

 Backspacehacker wrote:
IMO i only would do 2 armys if they were the same race, IE SM and IG, or ELdar and dark eldar, orks and CSM or CSM and demons, i think its a fluff thing

this is a good point, I think the matrix is a real screw up, most of it makes no sense at all.

Orks and CSM? where's the link there?! but really Orks can ally with anyone if they are freebooters, so don't worry on that fluff-front.

GA

I think what backspacehacker was trying to get at with the Orks and CSM was more often then not if orks are fighting along side somebody its with CSM. i can see how CSM would use Orks all the time as little pawns in there overall scheme or plan, and giving them teeth from the millions of skulls they have collected ( even from Orks they have killed in the past!!)
Tony A

Imo Allies is a great idea, but it all really depends on you and your opponent.

It really depends on the directions of both players armies, are you both playing competitive? if so then go for what covers your weaknesses, if you play fluffy or themed then go with units that fit your theme of your force, if you play casual then go for what you think looks cool.

The problem arises when one opponent exploits it to no end, as with any rule, and they choose the most broken units just so that they can win the game by tabling the other player, it can make the game feel like a chore for the other gamer and this is why most players should have a middle ground when it comes to allies or any rule.

For me I like Allies and I want to make an allied detachment for my CSM with traitor guard and Daemons, but I would bring multiple lists one for a competitive game if my opponent was looking for a game for tournament practice, but I would also bring a casual list for those who just want to enjoy a game and see some epic stuff happen, but this is just my opinion..

 fullmetaljacket wrote:
I think what backspacehacker was trying to get at with the Orks and CSM was more often then not if orks are fighting along side somebody its with CSM. i can see how CSM would use Orks all the time as little pawns in there overall scheme or plan, and giving them teeth from the millions of skulls they have collected ( even from Orks they have killed in the past!!)
Tony A

yes I see what he means now, but they better not be allying with blood axes or freebooters, otherwise they may find that their campaign of slaughter is turned on them.

also orks only like ork teef, so paying them to their standards isn't too easy....

but to the original point, while the matrix and allies have some rough edges, there are points where you see it makes sense. after all, in a galaxy of war and strife, with unspeakable and unbearable forces on your doorstep, unlikely alliances are going to have to be made....

GA

General Annoyance wrote:

 fullmetaljacket wrote:
I think what backspacehacker was trying to get at with the Orks and CSM was more often then not if orks are fighting along side somebody its with CSM. i can see how CSM would use Orks all the time as little pawns in there overall scheme or plan, and giving them teeth from the millions of skulls they have collected ( even from Orks they have killed in the past!!)
Tony A

yes I see what he means now, but they better not be allying with blood axes or freebooters, otherwise they may find that their campaign of slaughter is turned on them.

also orks only like ork teef, so paying them to their standards isn't too easy....

but to the original point, while the matrix and allies have some rough edges, there are points where you see it makes sense. after all, in a galaxy of war and strife, with unspeakable and unbearable forces on your doorstep, unlikely alliances are going to have to be made....

GA

Actually you can pay them weapons/gear/vehicles too, not a smart idea too but they'll take it.

As they are currently used, allies are simply a crutch in at least 75% of games. People like the best things about an army, but don't want to deal with the unique shortcomings of each codex, so they plug holes in an army that is weak in Assault with another army's awesome assault troops, without the urge to ever touch the rest of that codex's stuff.

The other 25% are fluff-based armies, that are usually scoffed at, too.

I remember the "good old days" where I played a pure Space Wolves 13th company force, which due to the rules, were awesome at close-in fighting, but could not take any kind of vehicle or dreadnought other than Space Marine Bikes. I simply had to play around the weak point in my force, with squad meltaguns and Long Fangs with tank-killing weapons, and out-maneuvering any enemy vehicles. It was part of the army's character and challenge- not just a reason to throw some Eldar warwalkers in to vehicle-hunt.

Personally, I think the allies rules were merely an unapologetic move by GW to sell more miniatures. I think the aesthetic component of this hobby is its best part at the moment, and while, in some cases, folks have used the allies rules to make for interesting and fluffy armies, in most cases I feel that visual and fluff aesthetic is tossed to the wind in order to make more competitive army builds using the allies rules.

 kronk wrote:
I like it.

I like to paint and model, but why would I buy any Tau or Eldar if I'm only interested in about 500-750 points worth of stuff. My group plays 1500 to 2000 point games.

Now I can ally them in and justify my purchases. Brilliant model selling move, honestly.

Gotta agree with the man with the cowbell here. Gives me something to do/gives me an excuse to start small detachments if I want to. Also lets me compensate for the loss of inducted troops rules in the current SoB codex, which is where some of our heavier teeth came from.

It depends on how you use it and what you ca do. The fluff also counts I mainly play tau but the thought of a riptide with a wraithknight was to much to handle

I am not a huge fan of allies overall but I like some of the things you could do with them. As pointed out before it's nice to be able to use a small force of models you had bought to paint because you liked them but didnt want to make a full army of them. I am not a huge fan of using them to fill in the holes of your army as I see those for the most part as "balances". Allies also make me feel like team games are a little less cool as it was fun to get a bunch of the guys at the store to do 2v2s and 3v3s. Now I feel that why should I team up with my friend when I can just ally with something better.

Idk much about the new Eldar codex yet but my goal with the old one was to make a fun list of Eldar and Dark Eldar units that I liked the look of. Mainly the goal was to make a fun not competitive assault army. Never got around to it but maybe still later on I will.

General Annoyance wrote:
also orks only like ork teef, so paying them to their standards isn't too easy....

but to the original point, while the matrix and allies have some rough edges, there are points where you see it makes sense. after all, in a galaxy of war and strife, with unspeakable and unbearable forces on your doorstep, unlikely alliances are going to have to be made....

GA

It is easy to pay ork mercenaries.

Step 1: Hire ork freebooterz
Step 2: Send them in as an orkie wave to soften up objectives
Step 3: Send penal troopers out to pull teeth from all dead orks from orkie wave
Step 4: Pay remaining freebooterz

See all simple.

Or the easier way:

Step 1 and 2 as above
Step 3: Shoot any surviving orks from the orkie wave in the back as your real forces move in to claim objective
Step 4: No orks to pay since they are all dead

Skriker

 Skriker wrote:

General Annoyance wrote:
also orks only like ork teef, so paying them to their standards isn't too easy....

but to the original point, while the matrix and allies have some rough edges, there are points where you see it makes sense. after all, in a galaxy of war and strife, with unspeakable and unbearable forces on your doorstep, unlikely alliances are going to have to be made....

GA

It is easy to pay ork mercenaries.

Step 1: Hire ork freebooterz
Step 2: Send them in as an orkie wave to soften up objectives
Step 3: Send penal troopers out to pull teeth from all dead orks from orkie wave
Step 4: Pay remaining freebooterz

See all simple.

Or the easier way:

Step 1 and 2 as above
Step 3: Shoot any surviving orks from the orkie wave in the back as your real forces move in to claim objective
Step 4: No orks to pay since they are all dead

Skriker

perhaps, but they may be a little more cunnin' than that....

GA

 Skriker wrote:

General Annoyance wrote:
also orks only like ork teef, so paying them to their standards isn't too easy....

but to the original point, while the matrix and allies have some rough edges, there are points where you see it makes sense. after all, in a galaxy of war and strife, with unspeakable and unbearable forces on your doorstep, unlikely alliances are going to have to be made....

GA

It is easy to pay ork mercenaries.

Step 1: Hire ork freebooterz
Step 2: Send them in as an orkie wave to soften up objectives
Step 3: Send penal troopers out to pull teeth from all dead orks from orkie wave
Step 4: Pay remaining freebooterz

See all simple.

Now steal all their teeth and hire more

No. You are totally paranoid.