Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 ravengatorfan wrote:
The battle cannon is better at popping armor. It wont scatter enough to make it horrible inaccurate we as vanquisher is BS3 and it gets 2D6 armor pen just like the vanquisher.

Wrong on both counts.

The LRBT's gun is about equivalent to BS 3-4, depending on the exact target size. So it's probably slightly more accurate than the straight BS 3 single shot from the Vanquisher, but not by all that much.

The LRBT does NOT get the same armor pen as the Vanquisher. The LRBT rolls 2D6 and picks the highest single die (max of 6, average ~4), the Vanquisher rolls 2D6 and adds them together (max of 12, average of 7). Yes, that means that the Vanquisher's average roll for armor penetration is better than the LRBT's maximum roll.

End result: the LRBT is a joke against vehicles. You can shoot at one if you somehow have nothing better to do, but don't expect much from it.

if your shooting from far away you only are going to fire a lascannon which you don't even need.

The Vanquisher cannon has 72" range, same as the LRBT's main gun.

and if you got a horde your vanquishers are worthless.

And the LRBT isn't all that much better, unless your opponents never space their models out at maximum coherency distance or use cover. The LRBT is decent against marines because each model you kill really hurts, but that's not even close to true against a horde army. Killing 2-3 models from a horde unit is laughably ineffective.

 ravengatorfan wrote:
The battle cannon is better at popping armor. It wont scatter enough to make it horrible inaccurate we as vanquisher is BS3 and it gets 2D6 armor pen just like the vanquisher. if your shooting from far away you only are going to fire a lascannon which you don't even need. and if you got a horde your vanquishers are worthless. dual autocannons is worthless I can take a heavy weapons team of them for cheaper and better. eradicator can do good against ADL army's but tau would be the only real ADL army you play. you like me hate the demolisher. The Punishers would be good against the Orks and Nids but tau and marines maybe. Executioners are good but I feel like they wouldn't be as good against the Orks and Nids. Would tear through Marines though. The LRBT can deal with hordes and tanks with efficiency. Ya maybe there others are better at there job but they are not as versatile. especially when cheap heavy weapons teams can take there place.

Erm no, ordinance guns roll 2d6 and take the highest. The Vanquisher rolls 2d6 and combines them. One is much better than the other.

Against a horde list like say, Blob Guard, Green Tide, or Scuttling Swarm, your LRBT is at best killing three models against a properly spaced sea of models. Against MEQs, sure that's painful, but what good MEQ user is going to be out in the open for you to shoot anyway?

With the heavy bolters sure you could kill a few more models, but every Leman Russ model can take heavy bolters, so that's not exactly a point in it's favor, especially since if you really want horde killing, the Punisher is typically a better deal.

When I only take one Vanquisher, I always make it a Pasquisher with a lascannon hull gun, HK missile, and either multimelta or plasma cannon sponsons depending on whether I expect enemy tanks to get close or not.

This set up is quite capable of turn one killing a land raider or shaving off most of the wounds on those big nasty monstrous creatures, and given that the notches I put on my various Pasquishers' barrel for each tank or monstrous creature kill sometimes run the entire length of the gun in their long, storied career, I think it's a set up that is very, very reliable.

Personally I've found my LRBTs the workhorse of my army time and time again. I use 2, and find the ordnance cannon incredibly effective. Players at my local GW use marine/infantry in the open often enough, charging across the table, or between cover, etc. Even against units in cover, a 5+ save or even 4+ is pretty easy to whif.

It really suffered with the hit to sponsons and hull weapons not firing at BS. My friends let me fire additional weapons at full BS, which makes all the difference in the world. I'm sure this will be remedied in the next codex.

That being said, the battle cannon/hull lascannon work well against light armor/MCs, for me anyway. The key is versatility, I can shoot armor with a reasonable chance of threatening it, but prefer to shoot at MEQ. Either way, something is taking damage consistently unless they're really lucky. They also soak a ton of fire. I also use heavy bolters and a heavy stubber on mine, so if I only get a mediocre battlecannon shot, which is not often the case, a hull las/heavy bolters/heavy stubber rack up some kills themselves.

With a house ruling, it is a rare occurrence my LRBTs arent threatening or dont earn their points back. As they say, YMMV.

The LRBT can be very hit or miss, either your shots are just hitting spot on and your killing a few targets at a time or your shots just scatter a lot and your tanks just crap out and are those sitting hunks of av14.

I see increased value in Eradicators thanks to more Xenos and an increasing trend towards cover boosters.

 minigun762 wrote:
I see increased value in Eradicators thanks to more Xenos and an increasing trend towards cover boosters.

This and many armies are using cheaper GEQ type units to hold home field objectives and with the eradictors range is very possible to knock them off early if they are in sight.

 minigun762 wrote:
I see increased value in Eradicators thanks to more Xenos and an increasing trend towards cover boosters.

The problem is that the Colossus is so much better at this thanks to AP 3. It's just as effective at killing light infantry in cover, but can also hurt MEQs.

 Peregrine wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:
I see increased value in Eradicators thanks to more Xenos and an increasing trend towards cover boosters.

The problem is that the Colossus is so much better at this thanks to AP 3. It's just as effective at killing light infantry in cover, but can also hurt MEQs.

The problem with this line of reasoning is that all the artillery pieces have higher damage output per point than their equivalent specialist Russ.
People generally take russes because they want survivability rather than damage output. Both are valid, although I know which one I prefer...

 Griddlelol wrote:
The problem with this line of reasoning is that all the artillery pieces have higher damage output per point than their equivalent specialist Russ.
People generally take russes because they want survivability rather than damage output. Both are valid, although I know which one I prefer...

It's kind of an argument for the Basilisk/LRBT where in many cases STR 8 vs. STR 9 doesn't matter and all you sacrifice to get AV 14 is the ability to ignore some directional cover, but the difference between AP 3 and AP 4 is massive. Park the Colossus behind LOS blocking terrain if you're worried about it dying.

I thinking all stick with my 3lrmbt they do really good in my local meta. As all my opponents run infy heavy armies they have done really good for and i haven't run up against many other tanks our apcs. As with the hp system onlt av14 tanks are any good now days

zilka86 wrote:
I thinking all stick with my 3lrmbt they do really good in my local meta. As all my opponents run infy heavy armies they have done really good for and i haven't run up against many other tanks our apcs. As with the hp system onlt av14 tanks are any good now days

In this case the Dakkapunisher may be for you. Can't go wrong with 29 S5 shots per tank.

zilka86 wrote:
As with the hp system onlt av14 tanks are any good now days

Well that's just wrong. Ask any player which IG tanks they fear and you'll hear the cry of how the Manticore is OP. That's AV12 and an amazing tank.

Punisher sounds good till i play my brothers and his 180Boyz then i don't no if it would do any good

 Griddlelol wrote:

zilka86 wrote:
As with the hp system onlt av14 tanks are any good now days

Well that's just wrong. Ask any player which IG tanks they fear and you'll hear the cry of how the Manticore is OP. That's AV12 and an amazing tank.

I'd call the manticore more of an artillery platform than a tank.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

zilka86 wrote:
Punisher sounds good till i play my brothers and his 180Boyz then i don't no if it would do any good

Punishers love nothing more than Orks, Tyranids, Cultists and Guardsmen to shoot.

The old Artillery vs Tank choice seems to change which each new edition or release.
I like a middle of the road approach and take both.
Manticores for tank busting and Executioner for AP2 for example.

Then again I don't like the aesthetics of spam lists but I understand some do.

Punishers will eat through 180 Orks quick. With full heavy bolter sponson on three tanks that's 60 at ap- and 27 at ap4 strength 5 on both. (it's 600 points). Add in your new understanding of heavy weapons teams put some autocannons or heavy bolsters and good luck Orks.

Yea if you go up against orks and you have punishers then I would say you're gunna make that orks player really hate those tanks lol.

Again, I've never heard an ork player cry about a bolter boat punisher, but if you look through dakka they're all crying about the manticore.

Tank/artillery is pretty much semantics. Av is av.

I routinely play against Orks. I can confirm Manticores make them cry

With that many lascannons in your infantry platoons, you don't need Vanquishers for killing tanks, you have plenty of that already.

I haven't used LRBT's regularly since they were nerfed in six edition. I still take them in TAC lists occassionally, but I use the Exterminator as my go-to battle tank. It's great against transports, light armour and fliers. Even more so with Pask at the controls. That being said, you won't need these guys either with so many Las-Cannons in your infantry squads. Unless you want to use them for killing fliers. A Hydra kills fliers more reliably than an Exterminator, but at the cost of being overly specialised and very vulnerable to to getting blown up before the fliers even appear on the table.

My other main tank is actually the Vanquisher (despite what I said about you not needing them in your list). I use them because my guard squads are equipped with autocannons rather than lascannon. Also because there are some vehicles out there that the Exterminator simply cannot kill reliably with just one lascannon shot per tank.

Every other Leman Russ varient has it's place. Yes, artillery uses does it better and/or cheaper but artillery is a lot more fragile than a nice heavily armoured Russ.

However, your primary use for your Russes seems to be killing marines. They do that job very well indeed, but as already mentioned there are cheaper (but less well protected) means of killing marines. Not being able to get the best out of your tank with sponsons -or even not forking out for them at all- strikes me as being inefficient.

I can't help thinking that a cover save ignoring Eradicator (although marines still get an armour save) or a plasma monster Executioner might be better options for you. The blast radius is smaller, but the firepower from three heavy bolters (for an Eradicator) or a heavy bolter and two plasma sponsons (for the Executioner) more than makes up for it.

So if you find yourself up against Marines, use the Executioner. If you find yourself up against more lightly armoured foes that like to hug cover, go for the Eradicator.

The Hellhound does the same job as the Eradicator (and cheaper too), but at the cost of reduced armour protection. It also takes up a fast attack slot rather than a Heavy Slot though, which might make it an attractive option for you.

That's assuming you want to chose tanks over artillery.

 LeadLegion wrote:
It's great against transports, light armour and fliers.

Do the math, the Exterminator is pretty much worthless against flyers. It's only "better" than the other variants in that it gives you the ability to roll dice against them and therefore have the illusion that you're doing something.

Not at all. Do the math with Pask in the turret and you'll see what I mean.

9 Heavy Bolter Shots at Str6 (or 6 plus 1 str 10 lascannon shot), 4 twin-linked autocannon shots at str 8) is a lot of chances to roll a 6. The highest AV on a flier is 12, so even the Heavy Bolters have a chance to score a penetrating hit on occasion (against AV11 and Av10). Then factor in the fact that you'll be firing other Exterminators at the flier as well and you'll understand why few fliers spend more than one turn on the board against my IG. Especially when I field a Primaris Psyker or DA libby with Divination.

Even without Pask in the turret, an Exterminator still has a small chance of glancing an HP or two from AV11 fliers with Heavy Bolters. It just needs a bit of luck and enough shots.

Additionally, I usually take a Aegis with Quad gun as well, so the Exterminators normally only need to pop a hull point or two at most on an already damaged flier.

Yes, it involves a lot of firepower, but with so many Exterminators on the board, I've usually popped most of my opponnents transports in turn one and can afford to spend a turn or two shooting up secondary targets. By which I mean fliers. Granted if two fliers appear in the same turn I struggle a bit, but except against really heavy flier lists such as CronAir and Elysians, that happens less often that you might think. In my local meta at least.

*Edited for spelling and clarity*


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, another reason that I advocate Exterminators over Hyrda;s in this case is that, of the four armies the OP says he usually faces only one (Tau) are likely to field skimmers. Space Marines might, but you don't see Landspeeders all that often in the my regional meta.

Much better for the OP to spend the points on versatile Exterminators that can kill vehicles, mow down hordes (his other primary opponents are Orks and Nids) AND give fliers something to think about rather than to spend the points on a Hydra that will be damn near useless for killing anything but fliers or skimmers. All the more so considering that the Hydra's are primary targets for any list that contains fliers, meaning the OP would need to field two to reliably have one on the board when he needs it.

With the dawn of the large hard to kill MC's I've been moving to Vanquishers (IA:1 2nd edition) - coaxial heavy stubber, Beast hunter shells - 72', small blast, Str 8, AP2, INSTANT DEATH, With the normal LC of course

I'm a fan of the Exterminator but the Hydra has a fairly wide target range, as Flyers, Skimmers and FMCs are all hot in the current meta.

The difference to me is buying a flexible shooter that has some AA threat or buying a dedicated AA platforms that could toss out shots against other targets.

In the current meta, Hydra might be better overall.

@Sudjoe: I'd forgotten about Vanquishers.

@Mini Good point. I hadn't considerd FMC. If the Nid lists the OP goes up against a lot include a lot of FMC's then a couple of Hydra's might be worthwhile.

That said, you don't see Skimmers or FMC's in Ork lists and don't see FMC's or that many skimmers in most Space Marine lists. On the other hand, you do get lots of skimmers in Tau lists and some FMC and skimmers in Nid lists. So that's still half of his regular opponents whose armies won't have anything by fliers for Hydra's to shoot at.

Is that enough to merit the OP forking out the cash (as well as the points) for Hydra's? I suppose it depends on whether or not his Space Marine opponents field landspeeders and his nid opponents field winged tyrants and the like often enough to warrant it. I suppose it would also depend on how many fliers he typically comes across when playing against his regular opponents.

I can fully support the idea of balancing budget with options.
Sometimes it's just a matter of best utilizing what you have.

Figure a normal Exterminator turret will average 1.2 S7 hits per turn, that's a reasonable amount but you wouldn't want to rely on it.
For the same points, you could field two full AC HWTs. That's 2 hits per turn.

To kill FMCs I doubt you need hydras. All you need are enough lasguns to force a grounding test and plasma guns to finish it off.

 Kain wrote:
To kill FMCs I doubt you need hydras. All you need are enough lasguns to force a grounding test and plasma guns to finish it off.

I would agree, I wouldnt invest in specialized hydras.

 LeadLegion wrote:
9 Heavy Bolter Shots at Str6 (or 6 plus 1 str 10 lascannon shot), 4 twin-linked autocannon shots at str 8) is a lot of chances to roll a 6. The highest AV on a flier is 12, so even the Heavy Bolters have a chance to score a penetrating hit on occasion (against AV11 and Av10). Then factor in the fact that you'll be firing other Exterminators at the flier as well and you'll understand why few fliers spend more than one turn on the board against my IG. Especially when I field a Primaris Psyker or DA libby with Divination.

Again, do the math. The Pask Exterminator with HBs does an average of 0.65 HP against a Vendetta/Helldrake, and an average of 1.1 HP against a Scythe. And it costs over 200 points. A Vendetta costs 130 points and does 1.5 HP against AV 12, and 1.875 against AV 11.

Conclusion: the Exterminator is a joke as an AA unit. The Exterminator with Pask is an expensive joke as an AA unit.

Yes but you're missing the point.

The Exterminator is not there as an AA unit. The Exterminator is there to kill light armour, skimmers, monstrous creatures, transports and infantry. It's tertiary job is to finish off fliers that have already been weakened by the Aegis Quad Gun.

Plus, you don't just field one Exterminator. You field several. With two or three Exterminatos on the board (four in my lists), by the time the fliers turn up you've already taken down most of the enemies light vehicles (the Exterminator's primary targets) and can afford to task one or two to finishing off already damaged fliers for a turn or so before they get back to mopping up jet-bikes, infantry hordes and the like.

You've seized on an off-hand comment about just one of the targets it's can engage and seem to think that shooting it at fliers was my primary argument for taking the things. I was pointing out how versatile the Exterminator is, and suggesting the OP take them for that reason: Their versatility. I was certainly not suggesting that anyone use it as their primary source of Anti Air. Feel free to go back to my original post in this thread. If you re-read it with this in mind, you'll see what I was getting at.

It's not an AA unit. It's an anti-transport, anti-light armour, anti-skimmer tank that can supplement your anti-air by finishing off already wounded fliers.