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 Sleg wrote:
Random Allocation actually says if there are 2 models roughly the same distance away, just pick one to be the closest and they will remain the closest.

The Bosspole is being used within the unit, you could have an argument for the closest to the bosspole, but it clearly says page 92 in the Ork Codex, "Each time a unit with a bosspole fails a Morale test you can choose to inflict a wound on that unit (not on the model with the Bosspole) in order to re-roll that Morale test."
Since the unit is taking the wound, the player of that unit can pick any model in the unit to take the wound (except the Bosspole holder). It doesn't get any clearer than that.

Umm, no it does not. It very specifically says to randomly determine which model is closest. The only time you get to pick amongst equidistant models is in close combat.

 Sleg wrote:
Random Allocation actually says if there are 2 models roughly the same distance away, just pick one to be the closest and they will remain the closest..

Only if you read half the rule.

"" This usually happens when two or more models are equidistant from the shooting unit, but can also occur if the position of the attacker is unclear ""

The bold is the rest of the sentence.

Don't give me the page number and not quote your point - how about actually debate your point instead of using this magical 'random allocation' rule that in fact proves my point.


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Fragile wrote:

Only if you read half the rule.

"" This usually happens when two or more models are equidistant from the shooting unit, but can also occur if the position of the attacker is unclear ""

The bold is the rest of the sentence.

Yes, the full rule includes if the attacker is unclear. Still just pick any model to take the wound. Where does it state that you don't just pick the model to take the wound?


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 Happyjew wrote:


Umm, no it does not. It very specifically says to randomly determine which model is closest. The only time you get to pick amongst equidistant models is in close combat.

yes randomly determine. Yes, I choose this model will take the wound. Am I suppose to close my eyes and spin around 3 times? just pick a model in the unit to take the wound - normally, the player of that unit picks.

 Sleg wrote:
Since the unit is taking the wound, the player of that unit can pick any model in the unit to take the wound

Where are you finding this rule? Can you supply the page number please?

I already quoted p92 in the Ork Codex. please refer to that post. the unit takes a wound. the only model that can't take the wound is the Bosspole holder. Now pick a model in the unit and roll for their save. If they fail, they take a wound.

 Sleg wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:


Umm, no it does not. It very specifically says to randomly determine which model is closest. The only time you get to pick amongst equidistant models is in close combat.

yes randomly determine. Yes, I choose this model will take the wound. Am I suppose to close my eyes and spin around 3 times? just pick a model in the unit to take the wound - normally, the player of that unit picks.

If you choose the model, was the model determined randomly?

 Sleg wrote:
I already quoted p92 in the Ork Codex. please refer to that post. the unit takes a wound. the only model that can't take the wound is the Bosspole holder. Now pick a model in the unit and roll for their save. If they fail, they take a wound.

That rule doesn't say you get to pick.
What rule are you using that lets you choose what model takes the wound?

 Sleg wrote:
but it clearly says page 92 in the Ork Codex, "Each time a unit with a bosspole fails a Morale test you can choose to inflict a wound on that unit (not on the model with the Bosspole) in order to re-roll that Morale test.".

I love how you quoted my post that actually has the page number in it and then ask for the page number. Here it is again, the unit takes a wound (right?) not the model closest to the model with the bosspole. because if you had to pick the model closest to the bosspole - It would say that. No it say the unit take a wound. Who do you think will take the wound? You now need to pick a model in the unit to take the wound - you have to pick because then there is a random wound that no one is taking. the player of the unit taking the wound, PICKS a model.

Just like for Random Allocation, pick a model. Let the player of the attacked unit pick the model - your game will go so much smoother. unless you want to argue over the which models are considered random and how to roll for it and spend a half hour debating which model gets the wound. 2 seconds pick a model, that model saves.

I'm very familiar with the rule.
Where does it say you get to pick? It's not in that rule. It's not in the BRB. Where is it?

let's try a different approach?
your Boyz Unit of 7 (6 boyz 1 Nob) left after losing 12 Boyz. Rolls their Morale check (LD 7) they fail, using the bosspole the nob inflicts a wound and re-rolls morale and saves or fails. The wound the nob delievered, who gets it?

 Sleg wrote:
The wound the nob delievered, who gets it?

That's exactly the question.
You don't get to pick which model, as no rule allows that.
Random allocation covers this sort of situation, so use that. Randomly apply the wound to a member of the unit, apart from the Nob.

Oh for argument sake lets say they are all about 1" away from the Nob.

One of the boyz determined randomly. Easiest way in this scenario would be to designate each boy with a number (1-6) and roll a D6.

Ok HOW do you Randomly allocate it to the 6 (I made it easy you could roll a d6), but let's say there's 7 Ork Boyz, how do you randomly choose?


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there could be 8 or even 9 Ork boyz, because you can still fail LD 10.

 Sleg wrote:
Ok HOW do you Randomly allocate it to the 6 (I made it easy you could roll a d6), but let's say there's 7 Ork Boyz, how do you randomly choose?

However you like thats fair. Roll a D8 an re-roll the 8.
If you don't have that sort of dice put numbers in a hat, ask a friend to pick a random number, whatever...

Vector Strike hits a unit of 30 Ork Boyz, how do you randomly determine which 1 takes the wound. If he is removed, you then need to randomly choose another out of the 29. You then need to continue to choose randomly until all wounds in the wound pool are gone.

 Sleg wrote:
Vector Strike hits a unit of 30 Ork Boyz, how do you randomly determine which 1 takes the wound. If he is removed, you then need to randomly choose another out of the 29. You then need to continue to choose randomly until all wounds in the wound pool are gone.

Assuming 4 wounds:
1: Divide the unit up into 6 groups of 5 models. Assign each group a number.
2. Roll a D6 to determine group.
3. Assign a number (1-5) to each model in the group.
4. Roll a D6 to determine which model is wounded (rolling any result of 6 again).
5. Repeat steps 1-4 with one group only having 4 models. If a group with 4 models is "selected" you would roll again on any result o 5+.
6. Repeat steps 1-4, with two groups having 4 models. If a group with 4 models is "selected" you would roll again on any result o 5+.
7. Repeat steps 1-4, with three groups of 4 models. If a group with 4 models is "selected" you would roll again on any result o 5+.

How about just pick a model and move on? does it really matter? Random Allocation says to Random Determine - it doesn't say how to do this. With all the rules for fast dice and speeding up the game. Are you really going to cut up a bunch of pieces of paper and put them into a hat to pick a model? Do your games run for days?

For the sake of moving the game along, decide who picks (attacker or defender) and just move on with the game. In the case of the Bosspole the attacker is the defender, so they can just pick.

 Sleg wrote:
How about just pick a model and move on? does it really matter? Random Allocation says to Random Determine - it doesn't say how to do this. With all the rules for fast dice and speeding up the game. Are you really going to cut up a bunch of pieces of paper and put them into a hat to pick a model? Do your games run for days?

For the sake of moving the game along, decide who picks (attacker or defender) and just move on with the game. In the case of the Bosspole the attacker is the defender, so they can just pick.

Except (in the case of the Heldrake) if the attacker picks, say goodbye to your nob and 2 heavy weapon guys.

 Sleg wrote:
How about just pick a model and move on?

No rule allows that. But if you and your opponent agree to that then go for it.
This isn't an actual game, so you have time to work out how to do things properly, so if it ever comes up you can quickly deal with it while following the rules.

 Happyjew wrote:


Assuming 4 wounds:
1: Divide the unit up into 6 groups of 5 models. Assign each group a number.
2. Roll a D6 to determine group.
3. Assign a number (1-5) to each model in the group.
4. Roll a D6 to determine which model is wounded (rolling any result of 6 again).
5. Repeat steps 1-4 with one group only having 4 models. If a group with 4 models is "selected" you would roll again on any result o 5+.
6. Repeat steps 1-4, with two groups having 4 models. If a group with 4 models is "selected" you would roll again on any result o 5+.
7. Repeat steps 1-4, with three groups of 4 models. If a group with 4 models is "selected" you would roll again on any result o 5+.

When there is 29 models and you start this, do you have to start over if you roll the number that isn't assigned to a model. It's just a wound. I've watched players hem and haw over me moving 90 Ork Boyz. Do we really want to spend 20 minutes assigning wounds from a single shot?

 Sleg wrote:
Vector Strike hits a unit of 30 Ork Boyz, how do you randomly determine which 1 takes the wound. If he is removed, you then need to randomly choose another out of the 29. You then need to continue to choose randomly until all wounds in the wound pool are gone.

You put them into 5 groups of 6 boys,

roll d6, reroll any 6's til you get a number 1-5 (or roll a d5)
roll d6 again and remove that model from that group.

Now keep the same groupings and repeat, you now have 4 groups of 6 boys, and 1 group with 5.
Keep going til all wounds are resolved.

Or you could just roll a d30.

It really doesn't need to be this complicated.

Also, the wounds are not distributed, If the first model save or has 2 wounds, they continue to get hit until either they are removed or wound pool is emptied.

 Sleg wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:


Assuming 4 wounds:
1: Divide the unit up into 6 groups of 5 models. Assign each group a number.
2. Roll a D6 to determine group.
3. Assign a number (1-5) to each model in the group.
4. Roll a D6 to determine which model is wounded (rolling any result of 6 again).
5. Repeat steps 1-4 with one group only having 4 models. If a group with 4 models is "selected" you would roll again on any result o 5+.
6. Repeat steps 1-4, with two groups having 4 models. If a group with 4 models is "selected" you would roll again on any result o 5+.
7. Repeat steps 1-4, with three groups of 4 models. If a group with 4 models is "selected" you would roll again on any result o 5+.

When there is 29 models and you start this, do you have to start over if you roll the number that isn't assigned to a model. It's just a wound. I've watched players hem and haw over me moving 90 Ork Boyz. Do we really want to spend 20 minutes assigning wounds from a single shot?

Assuming there were 29 models to start then you would just start at step 5. In a friendly game, I would say roll a D6. On a 1, the wound affects the nob/special weapon ork (randomise amongst them). On a 2+ it's a regualr boy. That's if I even care enough.

Sleg,

The reason the random allocation rule exists is to create a potential risk of losing valuable models without that risk being close to guaranteed. Not only does it create a risk factor, it is more or less equal chance with non-valuable models in the unit. This method has been found to be the most fair when facing situations where the standard wound allocation rules do not apply, such as cases where a wound is allocated to a unit from within that unit or from a model passing over top of that unit at some point in it's movement phase.

Compare that random chance to the house-rule you propose. If the defending player is allowed to chose where the wounds are allocated to then valuable models, like warlords and special weapon teams, have a near-nil chance of being lost as they would never be selected. If the attacking player gets to decide where the wounds are allocated then the chance of losing these valuable models greatly increases as they would always have wounds allocated to them. In both situations the chance of losing a valuable model either increases dramatically or decreases dramatically based solely on who gets to allocate the wound.

So while randomly deciding is slower, and I can understand your gripe against it because of that reason, it is in the interest of both players to keep the game fair.

Yeah, I keep my spare d30 in my pocket, never know when I will be vector striked.

 Sleg wrote:
Yeah, I keep my spare d30 in my pocket, never know when I will be vector striked.

Hey! Some of us do keep a set of dice in our pockets at all time. Just in case...

Jinx Dragon, yeah 'Look Out Sir' doesn't deter you from taking out the valuable models. Might as well spend an hour figuring out that you probably didn't hit that valuable model anyway, But in case you did, they roll 2+ Look Out Sir and you still never hit that model. Might as well make either the attack or defender choose (determined before start of game) and if the attacker chooses then you can make them Look out sir all you want.

 Sleg wrote:
Jinx Dragon, yeah 'Look Out Sir' doesn't deter you from taking out the valuable models. Might as well spend an hour figuring out that you probably didn't hit that valuable model anyway, But in case you did, they roll 2+ Look Out Sir and you still never hit that model. Might as well make either the attack or defender choose (determined before start of game) and if the attacker chooses then you can make them Look out sir all you want.

Except LOS only works for characters. With IG, I'd much rather have the heavy/special weapons removed before I worry about the sarge.
Also, the 2+ is only for ICs.

Why are look out sirs important to a discussion about random allocation from special attacks?

They do not change the random allocation method in the slightest as they would only take place in a situation where the wound is randomly assigned to a character, clearly after the random allocation rule has been followed. I can not fathom what you are trying to accomplish by bringing them up in this discussion as they have nothing to do with it. The closest thing I can come to is you are trying to once more point out that this method is slower then 'house ruling' it away, with random allocation being made longer when you have to deal with look out sir rolls. Yet how long it takes to resolve the situation, or your lack of fondness for the rule itself, is irrelevant in a debate about what the rules are tell you to do.