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I dunno if this helps or not, but I'm curious about this too.

In the ork FAQ from april 2013 it reads:

Q. Are saves allowed against Wounds caused by rolling a ‘1’ for the
‘Waaagh!’ Fleet roll? Or by a bosspole’s re-roll? (p31)
A. Armour and invulnerable saves are allowed. These are just
the same as Wounds suffered in close combat from a normal
weapon (actually, a big green fist…).

I dunno if its intended, but at that point wouldn't it allocate according to close combat unsaved wounds, and such as related on pg. 25 of the BRB ? And then if randomness is needed it would follow the random allocation rule that was listed earlier?

For me it doesn't matter, it's just a wound, 1 of many that will be made in a single game. For the most part you will never even use this. When I play a game the defender picks, they pick in Melee, they pick with multiple close models to 'Look Out Sir' to. In the name of speed and the fact that even though I keep a dice bag with plenty of d20's, d12's, d4's, my opponent don't. A lot of games I play my opponents don't even have army list prepared in advance (mostly because they want to combat the list I bring) so sometimes after 2 hours just to get set up we play. I play Orks, I throw a lot of dice all the time. Moving a tide army, slows down the game. Do I really want to spend any more than a split second trying to figure out a single wound? No, the rare times I actually use the Bosspole, I always just choose the model who takes it, it's fast, it doesn't have my opponent wondering if I might take out a valuable figure (because there isn't one). With vector strike or even if there is a tie for distance between a valuable figure and a weaker one. The Attacked Unit just picks and no one has played it differently, because both armies will be the attacker and defender as some point in the game. How would you like it if I chose your 200pt cost model to take out instead of the weaker one. When I only spent 60 points on 3 Big Gunz.

Kaldolar wrote:
I dunno if its intended, but at that point wouldn't it allocate according to close combat unsaved wounds, and such as related on pg. 25 of the BRB ? And then if randomness is needed it would follow the random allocation rule that was listed earlier?

That isn't a workable approach - since close combat wounds are allocated to models in base contact first, and in the examples of bosspoles and Heldrakes there usually aren't any.

That isn't a workable approach - since close combat wounds are allocated to models in base contact first, and in the examples of bosspoles and Heldrakes there usually aren't any.

Thats true they are allocated to base contacted models first but in the BRB pg. 25 "Wounds are allocated and resolved starting with the closest model, just like in the Shooting phase"

 Sleg wrote:
For me it doesn't matter, it's just a wound, 1 of many that will be made in a single game. For the most part you will never even use this.

Good for you, but... speak for yourself. In any game I will absolutely not want my opponent to pick the special weapons out of a unit first, nor would I expect the unfair advantage of being able to pick basic models. The rules say we should allocate randomly as the fairest approach, so that's what I do, and as it is actually the way the rules are written, barring exceptional circumstances I would expect my opponent to respect that.

If the wound is allocated to a HQ 2+ LOS or a Boss 4+ LOS. They can still roll LOS if any wound is allocated to them.

As before stated Slag, I understand your gripe about this method taking time.

It is also completely fine if you and your opponents house rule the situation in order to decrease the time it takes for you to play this game. There is nothing wrong with this solution when it is between friends, just like any other house rule. In fact, you would be hard pressed not to find a group that doesn't house rule something or other. This game is not the best written as it really does show it had multiple writers working on different parts of the basic rule book, with no clue about how these rules interact with each and very poor editors whom failed to address the same. So there is always situations where house rules make more sense then what is written in the book.

The problem with house rules when it comes to rule discussions on forums like this one is a simple one. If a question arises concerning how you go about resolving certain rules, it is not a suitable answer to state 'ignore what is written and use this house rule.' People whom bring forth these questions want answers based on what the rules themselves tell you to do. Many times they have already resolved the situation, rarely are they sitting at a game table wasting time till someone posts here, and simply want to know if they did it the correct way or not. Other times it is mis-understandings with how the rules interact while they are flicking through some codex or another, so they are looking for clarification on how the rules work.

Giving them answers that is pure 'house rule' is counter-productive to their search for the correct, closest to rules as written, answer.

 Super Ready wrote:
Good for you, but... speak for yourself. In any game I will absolutely not want my opponent to pick the special weapons out of a unit first, nor would I expect the unfair advantage of being able to pick basic models. The rules say we should allocate randomly as the fairest approach, so that's what I do, and as it is actually the way the rules are written, barring exceptional circumstances I would expect my opponent to respect that.

What method do you use to allocate to a unit that has an odd number or large number like 31 in it?
How much time do you spend trying to figure out who gets a single wound?
If the wound pool removes the randomly chosen model, do you start over trying to figure out a random model?
Do you start your random rolling over if you re-roll the number for the already removed figure?
How do you compare your level of Fairness to the fact that if a Chaos Player has 3 Heldrakes and you basically just slowed your game to a grinding halt, at the end of their mv phase?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm just happy that I do not play with any of you. All of the methods so far, would have me concede our game, so I can actually just have fun playing and not get bogged down by this craziness. Which for me, slowing down the game, breaking out the calculator or cutting up a bunch of pieces of paper to put in a hat, is funny, but not fun.

have your opponent pick a boy to start counting at.

Roll enough d6 to be able to roll a larger number than what you need.

Count around in a logical fashion til you get to the number rolled.

so roll 6d6, if you get 31 you pick the guy you started with. by going larger you compensate for not being able to roll 1-5, those get covered with 32-36.

Friendly games, pick one. tournies, you better have a method worked out on how to do it. so you can do it by the rules without wasting to much time.

 Sleg wrote:
I'm just happy that I do not play with any of you. All of the methods so far, would have me concede our game, so I can actually just have fun playing and not get bogged down by this craziness. Which for me, slowing down the game, breaking out the calculator or cutting up a bunch of pieces of paper to put in a hat, is funny, but not fun.

Did you miss where I said I would do one of two things in a friendly game?
Assuming 26 boyz, 3 rokkit boyz and a nob:
Method 1: (most likely) you choose. With large mobs go ahead I don't care.
Method 2: (only really going to happen if it can make a big impact on the game): For each wound roll a D6. On a 2+ you choose. On a 1 it is randomised amongst the nob and rokkit boyz.

I really don't think method 2 is going to take that much time.

JinxDragon wrote:
As before stated Slag, I understand your gripe about this method taking time.

It is also completely fine if you and your opponents house rule the situation in order to decrease the time it takes for you to play this game. There is nothing wrong with this solution when it is between friends, just like any other house rule. In fact, you would be hard pressed not to find a group that doesn't house rule something or other. This game is not the best written as it really does show it had multiple writers working on different parts of the basic rule book, with no clue about how these rules interact with each and very poor editors whom failed to address the same. So there is always situations where house rules make more sense then what is written in the book.

The problem with house rules when it comes to rule discussions on forums like this one is a simple one. If a question arises concerning how you go about resolving certain rules, it is not a suitable answer to state 'ignore what is written and use this house rule.' People whom bring forth these questions want clarification on what the rules themselves tell you to do. Many times they have already resolved the situation, they are not sitting at a board wasting time while they wait for the answer, and simply want to know if they did it the correct way or not. Other times it is mis-understandings with how the rules interact while they are flicking through some codex or another, so they are looking for clarification on who the rules work.

Giving them answers that is pure 'house rule' is counter-productive to their search for the correct, closest to rules as written, answer.

It's not a 'house rule' there is no rule on how you determine randomly. I think when they wrote Random Allocation they were thinking it was only between 2-6 models, where you can just roll a d6 and be done with it. Random Allocation doesn't tell you how to figure 7 or more figures in a unit, sure with 11 you could roll 2d6 or 16 you could roll 3d6 and so on - but what do you do with 31? I just tried happyjew's method and it took me 9 minutes to break my unit up into groups and roll several times to determine the first, I then rolled the save, failed, and then I had to start over. so to allocated 4 wounds if no saves were made, it took me a total of 40 minutes and this wasn't in a game. I can't imagine how much time, you have on your hands - in the name of Fairness. to spend on 4 wounds, out of the 100's of wounds you will be saving for in a single game.

Rules on how you determine random allocation can be found on page 5, and they do detail how you go about resolving random allocation against small and large groups. If you chose to use anything other then the method outlined here, you have created a 'house rule' that has nothing to do with rules as written. Just because the original rules might take a little bit to long in your opinion doesn't change the fact that you are using a house rule. It might be good justification for your group to talk about the situation, and decide what they want to do, but it does not change the fact the rules as written do explain how to go about resolving this situation.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Sleg wrote:
I'm just happy that I do not play with any of you. All of the methods so far, would have me concede our game, so I can actually just have fun playing and not get bogged down by this craziness. Which for me, slowing down the game, breaking out the calculator or cutting up a bunch of pieces of paper to put in a hat, is funny, but not fun.

Did you miss where I said I would do one of two things in a friendly game?
Assuming 26 boyz, 3 rokkit boyz and a nob:
Method 1: (most likely) you choose. With large mobs go ahead I don't care.
Method 2: (only really going to happen if it can make a big impact on the game): For each wound roll a D6. On a 2+ you choose. On a 1 it is randomised amongst the nob and rokkit boyz.

I really don't think method 2 is going to take that much time.

I actually like Method 2, But Jinxdragon will say it's a 'house rule' and has no place in this discussion. But I like it and will pass it along to my group, especially the 4 Chaos Players, 3 Tyranid Players (even though they rarely take flyers), and can't miss the 2 demon players. the rest of the players like I stated before rarely use it, I've only used the Bosspole 3 times in all my games and like you said it doesn't usually matter, but taking Big Shootas as a possible, will make them happy - even though they are usually no longer in the unit by the time I'm making morale checks. There have been disputes over which model is closer and a simple coin toss or die roll always settles it, but again usually it doesn't matter (in several cases were a nob bikker has a wound, we usually just start with the wounded first).

With method 2, it isn't truly random, but there is still the chance of the nob/special weapon getting wounded. In fact the odds are actually less than 1 in 6, but it gives you that slim chance.

JinxDragon, yes, HappyJew already presented this and actually showed how it worked. I stated that in a 2 hour long game, you just added 40 minutes everytime a vector strike, happens to a large group of Ork Boyz, and removing 4, if the Boss or HQ get a wound, they will LOS or take the wound.
In most cases it doesn't really matter. But if I'm in a Tournie and I want to run down the clock - I will certainly use this method. Hell I might just take a full squad of Gretchins (33 in the unit) just for the laugh against a Chaos Player. You never know that valuable Runtherd might take a wound and not LOS and be removed. Or do you think they will mind if I just pick out 4 grots and take them off the table?

Sleg - they wrote rules covering random allocation. Even if they didnt it isnt dififcult to work out what

RANDOM

means

It doesnt mean you pick a model - that is the exact opposite of random.

 Sleg wrote:
JinxDragon, yes, HappyJew already presented this and actually showed how it worked. I stated that in a 2 hour long game, you just added 40 minutes everytime a vector strike, happens to a large group of Ork Boyz, and removing 4, if the Boss or HQ get a wound, they will LOS or take the wound.
In most cases it doesn't really matter. But if I'm in a Tournie and I want to run down the clock - I will certainly use this method. Hell I might just take a full squad of Gretchins (33 in the unit) just for the laugh against a Chaos Player. You never know that valuable Runtherd might take a wound and not LOS and be removed. Or do you think they will mind if I just pick out 4 grots and take them off the table?

If it truly takes you more than a minute to resolve, you're purposely slow playing.
You're severely over-exaggerating how long it takes.

 Sleg wrote:
What method do you use to allocate to a unit that has an odd number or large number like 31 in it?
How much time do you spend trying to figure out who gets a single wound?
If the wound pool removes the randomly chosen model, do you start over trying to figure out a random model?
Do you start your random rolling over if you re-roll the number for the already removed figure?
How do you compare your level of Fairness to the fact that if a Chaos Player has 3 Heldrakes and you basically just slowed your game to a grinding halt, at the end of their mv phase?

I use the "split into groups" method from the book. With odd numbers like 31 you'll never get a perfect split so, as the book says, that would be split as close as possible...one group of 6 and five groups of 5. That's still only 6 groups so you still only need to roll two dice to determine each random model.
You also don't need scraps of paper or anything complex...simply count the groups from one direction to the other. So for instance, group 1 is the 5 Orks in the far left, group 2 is the next 5 along etc until you're left with the last 6 on the right which are group 6.

Yes, I do continue to randomise if that model then dies...but because you're only rolling two dice after a quick glance and declaration of the split, doing this only takes *seconds* each time. Hardly a grinding halt.

Have you tried randomising at all? I think you'll be surprised how quick it is in practice... 3 Heldrakes on 31 Boyz is an extreme example. More commonly you'll have one or two rolls on a squad of 5-10.

I think there are a few different points mixed in, and while they relate I think they distract from the original question.

The way that I understand the bosspole, and the FAQ entry to it, is that a wound from a bosspole is allocated and resolved as if close combat occured. In which case a model in base to base contact would receive the wound, or if multiple are in base contact, use the Randomising rule on page 5. Further, if they are in base contact, you use the closest model to the model with the bosspole to allocate/resolve the wound.

To add on to that, if a warboss ends up bosspoling a nob through that method (If the nob is in a boyz squad he is a character), then that nob is eligible to be look out, sir!'d, also if the nob has the bosspole and manages to hit the warboss, then a similar situation can occur. But to me that is only possible if the wound has been allocated as if in close combat.

So in the end, though the rule says that "Each time a unit with a bosspole fails a morale test you may choose to inflict a wound on that unit". it means that the Player doesn't choose a model, that model is specifically decided upon as per the rules in the associated BRB and Ork FAQ (April 2013)

Other than that it seems to be conjecture, and I really would like to see if someone interprets that FAQ rule the same or differently than I do.

Do I see it as a house rule: Yes
Do I see it as a problem: No, if both sides agree to play it that way

I have put forth multiple times that I understand why you might want to go about using a house rule in this situation. I agree that you are well within your right to discuss the situation with your opponent and use alternative solutions that you both agree on. Nothing about that causes a problem in my eyes, as long as all parties are willing to do it your way throughout the whole of the game, because that is how house rules work. If there is an agreement to change the rules of a game, any game, between the players then outside observes such as myself have no grounds to protest.

The problem I have is the amount of times you have posted to try and state that page 5 doesn't give us a rule as written solution, when it clearly does.

If I had to randomize 7 boyz quickly;

Step 1; Roll 7 D2 Dice (one for each Boy).
Say you roll four 1's and 3 2's

Step 2; The 3 Boyz that rolled the 2's roll a D2 again
Lets say we get two 1's and one 2.

I feel it would be a perfectly random result to say that in step 2 the ork that rolled the two takes the wound.

A D2?
Like a coin?

Would a single D8 not be quicker? Re-rolling the 8?

Kaldolar - If you had your Big Mek (because who would put their Warboss with Boyz, instead of a Nob unit) with a Bosspole and that unit of 20+ is reduced to 10 or less and the LD failed and the wound is allocated.
I can't agree more with what you said. That is probably the best way to resolve the Bosspole issue. That is a perfectly fair way to assess the use of the Bosspole. The question is if their are more than 1 in BtB or the same distance away from the Big Mek. You can choose which one takes the wound. If the Nob takes the wound and LOS passes. He picks the closest that is not the Big Mek (because Bosspole holder can not take the wound).

But if we follow Random Allocation, any number of eligble models above 6, will have to be separated into 2 groups, roll d6 to determine, which group is rolled for. roll a second d6 to determine the model, target model rolls save. Then re-roll Morale. Again if the Nob LOS he can't choose the Big Mek.

 grendel083 wrote:
A D2?
Like a coin?

Or results one through three is a 1 and results four through six is a 2.

EDIT; I guess I'm assuming nobody has a D8. Yes I feel that could work as well.

I always have 2D4, 2D8, 2D10, 1D20, scatter die, artillery dice, and more D6's then ever needed for a game of Shadowrun near by at all times...

 Happyjew wrote:
more D6's then ever needed for a game of Shadowrun near by at all times...

I didn't think that was possible... :-)

rigeld2 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
more D6's then ever needed for a game of Shadowrun near by at all times...

I didn't think that was possible... :-)

What can I say, I sometimes run pick-up games of Shadowrun where nobody else has any dice.

 Happyjew wrote:
I always have 2D4, 2D8, 2D10, 1D20, scatter die, artillery dice, and more D6's then ever needed for a game of Shadowrun near by at all times...

what no d12? how can you live without a d12? I don't know why I still carry my dice bag around with me. But I do and strangely enough, I've only used the d4 to mark wounds on models and vehicles. Rolling Random Allocation takes more time than it's usually worth. First it's never been an issue, I've never had anyone say 'stop! divide your unit into 2 and roll, before having to roll again to figure out the model' I pick a model, usually it's the closest because that's easy, I roll to save - only once did they fail to save. I usually pass the morale check the second time around. It's how it's done, so fast that it passes like any other wound.
I don't think I've ever seen a Heldrake vector strike a unit of 20 or more. We usually determine closest from where the Heldrake passed the unit and start from there - If there is a Boss, he can LOS once a wound is given, the rest of the wounds are his to LOS with unless he is removed. Again, I've never really thought about it, until this thread. hen again, since it is a rare occuance, I probably wont think about it during a game.

No Bloodbowl player should be without his trusty D8 and D16

 Sleg wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
I always have 2D4, 2D8, 2D10, 1D20, scatter die, artillery dice, and more D6's then ever needed for a game of Shadowrun near by at all times...

what no d12? how can you live without a d12?

Who uses a D12? Answer.