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 Happyjew wrote:
This I agree with. In a friendly game, I could care less. However, in a tournament-setting where prizes are on the line, it could be the difference between winning a battleforce of your choice or a blister pack.

I get where you are coming from and your viewpoint is not invalid. I guess in a tournament setting where there are time limits (typically 2.5 hours) I would prefer to limit the amount of random allocation as much as possible. For a non-rules practical reason:

Chances are if you are playing against orks you will generally have less time to actually play the game, from deployment to movement, all but the best practiced ork players already have a monopoly on the game-time as it is. Arguably the aggregate additional time spent randomly allocating could actually matter. I actually had this happen with Dark Eldar before bladevanes were FAQ'd to not use random allocation. Jetbikes turbo boosting over an IG platoon, and my opponent was insistent on using random allocation, I obviously had no leg to stand on, I can't tell him not to use a rule that he was FAQ'd to use. But this ate up enough time that the game ended when it really could have gone on. While this is a hyperbolic example, unless your ork opponent is super vigilant about keeping the game moving, time is generally a precious resource in a tournament setting vs. orks.

However in that same scenario it could really be just as important to have to choose a random ork because time is so precious. It's kind of six of one half a dozen of another. I would prefer to just have more time even if it is only a minute or so.

For the record I agree that by pure RAW, you should use random allocation, it's one of those quirky things that was fine in 5th but behaves poorly in 6th and I imagine the mechanic will be cleaned up or changed altogether when Orks get their new book.

 Jidmah wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
distance of model A to source: Unknown
distance of model B to source: Unknown
distance of model C to source: Unknown

Unknown = unknown, they are all equal distance away from the source. Player picks

From someone who faces this kind of problem every day at work:

That's wrong, and maybe the whole problem of your argument.

If you compare two unknown values to each other, the result is always unknown. Unknown can never be greater than, smaller than, equal or not equal to another unknown. Unless you can prove that both unknowns are, in fact, the same value, and thus completely eliminate the value from your equation, you cannot make any statement about the questions "Is Unknown equal to Unknown?".

An abstract example:
A + B = C
X - Y = Z
Both C and Z are unknown and could each be any number. However, you can never tell whether C is equal to Z without knowing A, B , X and Y. In the same way, you cannot know whether models are equidistant from the source without knowing the source.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sirlynchmob wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Simple question. Using the rules as they are written, where does the wound come from?

the player. The player is inflicting a CC wound on the unit. Undisputed RAW. This is why I say closest to the player is a valid RAW option.

I don't know where you guys get this "undefined" stuff, but "HI" I'm right here. /wave

This is me, I am the source, Call me Neo.
This is me inflicting a CC wound on my unit
This is me touching the model I'm inflicting the wound on. B2B I choose.
This is me waving my hand over the unit. Unit is equidistant to me, I choose.

So, is it legal for me to grab your hand and move it to the model I want killed?

No, that's illegal and generally called assault.

We know the source, I am the source. I am putting a CC wound on my unit. If there is no known source for the wound, was there ever a wound?

Lets try it this way we are on earth, that is our 4'x6' table.
Outside the universe is some sort of god like figure.
How far apart am I from god?
How far apart are you from god?
isn't everyone on earth the same distance to him?

equal distance, player picks.

sirlynchmob wrote:
Lets try it this way we are on earth, that is our 4'x6' table.
Outside the universe is some sort of god like figure.
How far apart am I from god?
How far apart are you from god?
isn't everyone on earth the same distance to him?

equal distance, player picks.

Only if you know exactly where god is. If, we are standing side by side facing North, and god is NE of us, then we are not equidistant from god.

Undefined distance to A =/= undefined distance to B.

 Happyjew wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
Lets try it this way we are on earth, that is our 4'x6' table.
Outside the universe is some sort of god like figure.
How far apart am I from god?
How far apart are you from god?
isn't everyone on earth the same distance to him?

equal distance, player picks.

Only if you know exactly where god is. If, we are standing side by side facing North, and god is NE of us, then we are not equidistant from god.

Undefined distance to A =/= undefined distance to B.

In this case we do exactly where god is, I'm standing right here. And considering most people just eyeball equal distance without breaking out the laser measuring tools, then any distance +-10% is close enough to be considered equal really.

So we would be close enough to be considered equal distance.

sirlynchmob wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
Lets try it this way we are on earth, that is our 4'x6' table.
Outside the universe is some sort of god like figure.
How far apart am I from god?
How far apart are you from god?
isn't everyone on earth the same distance to him?

equal distance, player picks.

Only if you know exactly where god is. If, we are standing side by side facing North, and god is NE of us, then we are not equidistant from god.

Undefined distance to A =/= undefined distance to B.

In this case we do exactly where god is, I'm standing right here. And considering most people just eyeball equal distance without breaking out the laser measuring tools, then any distance +-10% is close enough to be considered equal really.

So we would be close enough to be considered equal distance.

So you'd allow me to shoot a lascannon 52.8"?

Sirlynch - rules quote showing you are the source of the wound. You decide to inflict the wound, but nothing states you are alos the source

Unless you have a rules quote? Anything?

sirlynchmob wrote:
No, that's illegal and generally called assault.

You'll be hard pressed to get any judge to convict me for assault for grabbing your hand for a few seconds, especially since it's part of the game if we were to follow your rules.

We know the source, I am the source. I am putting a CC wound on my unit. If there is no known source for the wound, was there ever a wound?

Lets try it this way we are on earth, that is our 4'x6' table.
Outside the universe is some sort of god like figure.
How far apart am I from god?
How far apart are you from god?
isn't everyone on earth the same distance to him?

Alright, let's get silly.

In case of orks, you'd have to chose whether you are Gork or Mork - fluff clearly dictates you can't be both. Since all orks randomly believe in Gork or Mork, you'd have determine for each ork in which one it believes. Then you would have to determine which one of the Gork (or Mork) believers is the most faithful. Since neither Gork nor Mork have any influence on how faithful any given ork is, we can assume that faith is random. Thus you randomly determine which of your followers is the most faithful and thus the closest to you. You then remove that ork as casualty because you hit him with your big green fist (requires painting your fist in the correct color).

So, by RAW, if you are Gork or Mork, and at least one of your fists is green, you have to remove a random ork as casualty. If you are not Gork or Mork and/or neither of your fists are green, you are not the source of the wound, and thus the source is unknown

 Jidmah wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
No, that's illegal and generally called assault.

You'll be hard pressed to get any judge to convict me for assault for grabbing your hand for a few seconds, especially since it's part of the game if we were to follow your rules.

We know the source, I am the source. I am putting a CC wound on my unit. If there is no known source for the wound, was there ever a wound?

Lets try it this way we are on earth, that is our 4'x6' table.
Outside the universe is some sort of god like figure.
How far apart am I from god?
How far apart are you from god?
isn't everyone on earth the same distance to him?

Alright, let's get silly.

In case of orks, you'd have to chose whether you are Gork or Mork - fluff clearly dictates you can't be both. Since all orks randomly believe in Gork or Mork, you'd have determine for each ork in which one it believes. Then you would have to determine which one of the Gork (or Mork) believers is the most faithful. Since neither Gork nor Mork have any influence on how faithful any given ork is, we can assume that faith is random. Thus you randomly determine which of your followers is the most faithful and thus the closest to you. You then remove that ork as casualty because you hit him with your big green fist (requires painting your fist in the correct color).

So, by RAW, if you are Gork or Mork, and at least one of your fists is green, you have to remove a random ork as casualty. If you are not Gork or Mork and/or neither of your fists are green, you are not the source of the wound, and thus the source is unknown

my eyes have been opened we should play more games like this!!! haha

 Jidmah wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
No, that's illegal and generally called assault.

You'll be hard pressed to get any judge to convict me for assault for grabbing your hand for a few seconds, especially since it's part of the game if we were to follow your rules.

We know the source, I am the source. I am putting a CC wound on my unit. If there is no known source for the wound, was there ever a wound?

Lets try it this way we are on earth, that is our 4'x6' table.
Outside the universe is some sort of god like figure.
How far apart am I from god?
How far apart are you from god?
isn't everyone on earth the same distance to him?

Alright, let's get silly.

In case of orks, you'd have to chose whether you are Gork or Mork - fluff clearly dictates you can't be both. Since all orks randomly believe in Gork or Mork, you'd have determine for each ork in which one it believes. Then you would have to determine which one of the Gork (or Mork) believers is the most faithful. Since neither Gork nor Mork have any influence on how faithful any given ork is, we can assume that faith is random. Thus you randomly determine which of your followers is the most faithful and thus the closest to you. You then remove that ork as casualty because you hit him with your big green fist (requires painting your fist in the correct color).

So, by RAW, if you are Gork or Mork, and at least one of your fists is green, you have to remove a random ork as casualty. If you are not Gork or Mork and/or neither of your fists are green, you are not the source of the wound, and thus the source is unknown

I'm Mork obviously, look at my suspenders. I only wear the green gloves for tournies, so we'll ask the TO if they're green enough. It's not easy being green you know



so I am the source and as soon as I touch a model it is the closest model.

side note: When the judge asks why I broke your nose, my answer is, you took the first swing by grabbing me. In Florida I could probably shoot you and never see a judge so let's keep our hands to ourselves during a game.

OK, you've proved your Mork (though I don't think that that Mork was Brutal or Kunning). You claim to have a green (assuming Hulk) glove. You have yet to prove which model is the most faithful thus which one is closest to you.

 Happyjew wrote:
OK, you've proved your Mork (though I don't think that that Mork was Brutal or Kunning). You claim to have a green (assuming Hulk) glove. You have yet to prove which model is the most faithful thus which one is closest to you.

the hulk gloves don't work, it's to hard to move models & roll dice with them

we'll just have to agree to disagree.

We can see which one is psychically closest to me, we can even measure it.

or from a two separate planes argument, until those two planes meet you can't measure from one to the other. The board being one dimension and the players working on second. But if the planes meet right above one ork, than he becomes the closest model. ie the one I'm touching.

The source is known though, I choose to inflict a wound on that unit. I am the source.

You can provide a rules quote showing that, in game, you are the source of the CC wound?

I am sure, given your repeated assertions, you can do so.

sirlynchmob wrote:
We can see which one is psychically closest to me, we can even measure it.

How do you measure psychic ability? Obviously some models are clearly more psychic than others, and if one assumes psychic powers come from the models deity...

Unless Sirlynchmob is stuck on a base, we still have nothing to measure to.

Indeed, you only have permission to measure between units, meaning sirlynch ALSO has to show where his unit type and characteristic profile are.

 Happyjew wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
We can see which one is physically closest to me, we can even measure it.

How do you measure psychic ability? Obviously some models are clearly more psychic than others, and if one assumes psychic powers come from the models deity...

dang auto correct. physically


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Indeed, you only have permission to measure between units, meaning sirlynch ALSO has to show where his unit type and characteristic profile are.

so you can't measure to ruins without bases either? nor tanks? nor buildings? nor that lone tree over there?

Nope, as ruins have no rules allowing you to measure to them. Yes, as you have a rule stating how you measure to vehicles. Yes, as you are told you can measure to an )occupied by an enemy) building, as it follows some vehicle rules. No, as a tree has no rules.

Sheesh, thought you were aware of basic rules?

You still cant provide a rule allowing us to measure to YOU though, so I assume you concede your point?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Nope, as ruins have no rules allowing you to measure to them. Yes, as you have a rule stating how you measure to vehicles. Yes, as you are told you can measure to an )occupied by an enemy) building, as it follows some vehicle rules. No, as a tree has no rules.

Sheesh, thought you were aware of basic rules?

You still cant provide a rule allowing us to measure to YOU though, so I assume you concede your point?

I can check any distance at any time.

Distances between models and ALL OTHER OBJECTS (and so on) ie Me, or any tree, etc, etc.

So as I'm inflicting a wound on a unit, and we need to know the closest model to me, we have permission again to measure said distance.

I thought you had me on ignore, please put me back there and keep all your trolling nonsense about conceding points to yourself. or can you show how we go from me being the source of a wound, to the wounds source being unclear. Page & paragraph please. Using any other method, without agreement to change the rules, is cheating.

Maybe you two should get a room - there's a lot of...tension...in these posts.

In other words, knock it off. If you can't discuss this politely, you can stop discussing it completely.

sirlynchmob wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Nope, as ruins have no rules allowing you to measure to them. Yes, as you have a rule stating how you measure to vehicles. Yes, as you are told you can measure to an )occupied by an enemy) building, as it follows some vehicle rules. No, as a tree has no rules.

Sheesh, thought you were aware of basic rules?

You still cant provide a rule allowing us to measure to YOU though, so I assume you concede your point?

I can check any distance at any time.

Distances between models and ALL OTHER OBJECTS (and so on) ie Me, or any tree, etc, etc.

So as I'm inflicting a wound on a unit, and we need to know the closest model to me, we have permission again to measure said distance.

I thought you had me on ignore, please put me back there and keep all your trolling nonsense about conceding points to yourself. or can you show how we go from me being the source of a wound, to the wounds source being unclear. Page & paragraph please. Using any other method, without agreement to change the rules, is cheating.

You have not shown rules evidence of how to measure to you.
Also, please don't use personal attacks on people, it isn't polite.
Edit: the mods on here really are ninjas...
Janthkin: have an exalt for ninja-ness.

Sirlynch - then provide a rule saying that. You havent so far.

You can measure any distance you are allowed to measure, at any time. there are no rules allowing you to measure to yourself.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Sirlynch - then provide a rule saying that. You havent so far.

You can measure any distance you are allowed to measure, at any time. there are no rules allowing you to measure to yourself.

object
Noun
A material thing that can be seen and touched.

I am a object, I can be measured to. pg 4 says I can measure to myself, between my unit and all other objects.

pg 4 clearly says I can, where is this imagined restriction you created that removes that permission?

please provide any rules that support your position, or even state a position for a change. or admit to being a troll and concede.

As I can measure to myself, the model I touch while measuring is the closest model. Ergo, player picks.

sirlynchmob wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Sirlynch - then provide a rule saying that. You havent so far.

You can measure any distance you are allowed to measure, at any time. there are no rules allowing you to measure to yourself.

object
Noun
A material thing that can be seen and touched.

I am a object, I can be measured to. pg 4 says I can measure to myself, between my unit and all other objects.

pg 4 clearly says I can, where is this imagined restriction you created that removes that permission?

please provide any rules that support your position, or even state a position for a change. or admit to being a troll and concede.

As I can measure to myself, the model I touch while measuring is the closest model. Ergo, player picks.

BRB p.4 wrote:
Distances between models and all other objects (which can be
other models, terrain features and so on) are always measured
from closest point on one base to the closest point on the other
base

Where is your base? Do you have one?

sirlynchmob wrote:
I can be measured to.

Where do you measure to/from?
Your base? You're not a vehicle, so not Hull.
We're told what to measure from with all models, vehicles etc.
Can you show us a rule that covers "you"?

Tactical_Genius wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Sirlynch - then provide a rule saying that. You havent so far.

You can measure any distance you are allowed to measure, at any time. there are no rules allowing you to measure to yourself.

object
Noun
A material thing that can be seen and touched.

I am a object, I can be measured to. pg 4 says I can measure to myself, between my unit and all other objects.

pg 4 clearly says I can, where is this imagined restriction you created that removes that permission?

please provide any rules that support your position, or even state a position for a change. or admit to being a troll and concede.

As I can measure to myself, the model I touch while measuring is the closest model. Ergo, player picks.

BRB p.4 wrote:
Distances between models and all other objects (which can be
other models, terrain features and so on) are always measured
from closest point on one base to the closest point on the other
base

Where is your base? Do you have one?

Don't need one, the bold line should be good enough for anyone to see that you can measure to yourself, along with measuring to check distances to objectives, rocks, table edges, anything I want even without it having a base.

You can always check ANY distance at ANY time. so during the game I can measure how far it is, from my big mek to my car if I'd like.

Ah, so you are just going to ignore the requirement to measure to your base?

Does that not count as a rule for you?

You can measure to yourself, as long as you have a base, or have a rule allowing you to measure to something other than the base.

So, when you can point to your base, or alternative rule, you CAN measure, but have absolutely no point you are allowed to measure to.

I assume you will now concede this, in the face of irrefutable rules proving your position wrong?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Ah, so you are just going to ignore the requirement to measure to your base?

Does that not count as a rule for you?

You can measure to yourself, as long as you have a base, or have a rule allowing you to measure to something other than the base.

So, when you can point to your base, or alternative rule, you CAN measure, but have absolutely no point you are allowed to measure to.

I assume you will now concede this, in the face of irrefutable rules proving your position wrong?

Does the rule that I can always check ANY distance at ANY time mean nothing to you? or is that another one you're ignoring?

How about the rule that says I'm choosing to cause a wound to my unit?

As I'm causing a wound, we need to know the distance to me and the unit, so we need to find that distance to know which CC option to use and which model is closest.

ergo, we have permission to do so.

as you're so hung up on bases, then fine I'm on the base I was provided with, so we'll measure to my big toe. or how about my base of operations (my house), or as All Your Base Are Belong to Us, all my models are equal distance from any of the 3 bases, without using some pretty precise laser measuring tools. Ergo again I choose.

And I accept your concession.

sirlynchmob wrote:
Does the rule that I can always check ANY distance at ANY time mean nothing to you?

You're still missing a rule stating where you measure to.
Models, vehicles, buildings - these all state what you measure to/from.
What rule are you using?

 grendel083 wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
Does the rule that I can always check ANY distance at ANY time mean nothing to you?

You're still missing a rule stating where you measure to.
Models, vehicles, buildings - these all state what you measure to/from.
What rule are you using?

so you can't measure to objectives? the table edge?

any distance, the distance from me to my model
any time, I'm causing a wound, we should check.

if the only point of contention is where to measure to, then we can agree before the game starts
As my hand is holding the tape measure, that would be a good point
the tip of the nose is often referenced
or my big toe for those with the base hangup.

As I am inflicting a wound, you would agree that distance needs to be known right?

sirlynchmob wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
Does the rule that I can always check ANY distance at ANY time mean nothing to you?

You're still missing a rule stating where you measure to.
Models, vehicles, buildings - these all state what you measure to/from.
What rule are you using?

so you can't measure to objectives? the table edge?

Both are defined points that you can measure to. Table Edge is quite literally the edge of the table.

if the only point of contention is where to measure to, then we can agree before the game starts
As my hand is holding the tape measure, that would be a good point
the tip of the nose is often referenced
or my big toe for those with the base hangup.

So to answer my question, no there is no rule. You're suggesting to quite literally "make it up".
This isn't even slightly RAW.
You should move your argument to "Proposed Rules" not YMDC.