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Can you score weapon destroyed on a Wave Serpent?

I think no because it's not a weapon, but item of wargear which can shoot if that makes sense. At no point does the rules say it is a shooting weapon, it just says treat it as a hull mounted weapon for the purpose of direction.

I also think no because I play Eldar

If it can be destroyed, what happens to the shield bonus? Also since when does wargear get destroyed apart from weapons?

What are your thoughts?

They are not listed as a weapon - they can just use it as one.

It's been discussed a few times, to no real conclusion. The problem largely seems to center around the fact that the Shield actually has a weapon profile.

Closest analogous situation you get is the Hunter-Killer missile upgrade.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/536996.page#5796964

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/534910.page#5759266

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/531147.page#5694572

But a HK missile certainly is a weapon.

A deffrolla has a str10 ap- profile and cannot be destroyed.

Thanks for the links, I search for serpent shield and only the WIP FAQ come up.

 hyv3mynd wrote:
But a HK missile certainly is a weapon.

A deffrolla has a str10 ap- profile and cannot be destroyed.

The deffrolla doesn't have a weapon profile, by 6e terms; see p. 50.

An HK missile is a weapon, although purchased as wargear, but has a similar issue: is it still a weapon, eligible for "Weapon Destroyed," after it's been fired?

 Janthkin wrote:

 hyv3mynd wrote:
But a HK missile certainly is a weapon.

A deffrolla has a str10 ap- profile and cannot be destroyed.

The deffrolla doesn't have a weapon profile, by 6e terms; see p. 50.

An HK missile is a weapon, although purchased as wargear, but has a similar issue: is it still a weapon, eligible for "Weapon Destroyed," after it's been fired?

No, per Weapon Destroyed you do not count weapons that have run out of ammunition.

The real problem is that weapon destroyed does include vehicle upgrades that function as weapons, ie hk missiles. The Shield is a vehicle upgrade that functions as a weapon, but what happens if it gets destroyed - can you just no longer fire it, or do you lose the protection as well?

Technically not an upgrade since its stock wargear on every serpent.

 hyv3mynd wrote:
Technically not an upgrade since its stock wargear on every serpent.

By that argument, you would not be able to destroy Seeker Missiles on a Skyray, because they are not a Skyray upgrade since every Skyray has them.

But seekers are one use weapons which are allowed to be destroyed as a result, as long as they haven't been fired yet.

Serpent shield is not always a weapon or a one use weapon. They are incomparable.

 hyv3mynd wrote:
Technically not an upgrade since its stock wargear on every serpent.

Upgrade or not is irrelevant, as most vehicles have weapons that are part of the stock build.

The argument is if it's counts as a weapon. I'd say the HK missile arguement holds weight here and I would count it as a weapon as it has a weapon profile.

optimusprime14 wrote:

 hyv3mynd wrote:
Technically not an upgrade since its stock wargear on every serpent.

Upgrade or not is irrelevant, as most vehicles have weapons that are part of the stock build.

The argument is if it's counts as a weapon. I'd say the HK missile arguement holds weight here and I would count it as a weapon as it has a weapon profile.

But it doesn't count as a weapon. Serpent shield is not listed as a weapon, just as deffrolla is not listed as a weapon. Both are wargear that when used in a certain fashion, can cause casualties. Deffrollas cannot be destroyed by a pen5, why would a shield?

 hyv3mynd wrote:

optimusprime14 wrote:

 hyv3mynd wrote:
Technically not an upgrade since its stock wargear on every serpent.

Upgrade or not is irrelevant, as most vehicles have weapons that are part of the stock build.

The argument is if it's counts as a weapon. I'd say the HK missile arguement holds weight here and I would count it as a weapon as it has a weapon profile.

But it doesn't count as a weapon. Serpent shield is not listed as a weapon, just as deffrolla is not listed as a weapon. Both are wargear that when used in a certain fashion, can cause casualties. Deffrollas cannot be destroyed by a pen5, why would a shield?

HK missile is also not listed as a weapon but a piece of wargear (in fact so is a stormbolter) But it has a weapon profile so it is a weapon.

A deffrolla does not have a weapon profile, just an effect. Much like the Tau Flechette Discharger which is not a weapon but can cause wounds.

A serpent shield can be used as a weapon, a deffrolla is a piece of wargear that is activated when the vehicle makes contact with another model and that effect of the deffrolla is then applied.

A HK missile, as a piece of wargear, can be destroyed by a weapon destroyed effect (as long as it remains unused)

optimusprime14 wrote:

 hyv3mynd wrote:

optimusprime14 wrote:

 hyv3mynd wrote:
Technically not an upgrade since its stock wargear on every serpent.

Upgrade or not is irrelevant, as most vehicles have weapons that are part of the stock build.

The argument is if it's counts as a weapon. I'd say the HK missile arguement holds weight here and I would count it as a weapon as it has a weapon profile.

But it doesn't count as a weapon. Serpent shield is not listed as a weapon, just as deffrolla is not listed as a weapon. Both are wargear that when used in a certain fashion, can cause casualties. Deffrollas cannot be destroyed by a pen5, why would a shield?

HK missile is also not listed as a weapon but a piece of wargear (in fact so is a stormbolter) But it has a weapon profile so it is a weapon.

A deffrolla does not have a weapon profile, just an effect. Much like the Tau Flechette Discharger which is not a weapon but can cause wounds.

A serpent shield can be used as a weapon, a deffrolla is a piece of wargear that is activated when the vehicle makes contact with another model and that effect of the deffrolla is then applied.

A HK missile, as a piece of wargear, can be destroyed by a weapon destroyed effect (as long as it remains unused)

True a HK is a wargear upgrade, but a HK missile is always a weapon.

A serpent shield is not always a weapon. Its default state is a defensive piece of wargear with an occasional weapon profile. RAW it is not a weapon but may be used as a weapon. As such, I would ignore it for WD results just as you cannot WD a deffrolla or flechette discharger.

Another problem: how can the shield be twin-linked when used after scatter lasers? since it is not a weapon and the scatter laser rulse clearly states any WEAPON fired subsequently becomes twin-linked... So it either is a weapon than can be destroyed, or it is not a weapon and cant use the TL granted by scatter-lasers

 WarlordRob117 wrote:
Another problem: how can the shield be twin-linked when used after scatter lasers? since it is not a weapon and the scatter laser rulse clearly states any WEAPON fired subsequently becomes twin-linked... So it either is a weapon than can be destroyed, or it is not a weapon and cant use the TL granted by scatter-lasers

Clearly because when you fire it, it's a weapon. When you're taking a penetrating hit, it is a shield. They aren't mutually exclusive considering the wargear has 2 different states.

I would argue that it is a wargear that can generate one use weapons. Therefore you could destroy a "serpent shield" weapon but you have no permission to destroy the serpent shield defensive wargear.

HK missiles are one shot weapons with only a single missile therefore when you destroy the individual missile weapon the HK wargear item becomes useless.

 ansacs wrote:
I would argue that it is a wargear that can generate one use weapons. Therefore you could destroy a "serpent shield" weapon but you have no permission to destroy the serpent shield defensive wargear.

HK missiles are one shot weapons with only a single missile therefore when you destroy the individual missile weapon the HK wargear item becomes useless.

... but that's not what it does.

If you're going to use parallels to describe it, I would say:

It's only ever a weapon during the controlling player's turn, therefore taking a penetrating WD result during the enemy turn cannot destroy the weapon profile of the shield.

But a penetrating hit taken as a result of overwatch during tank shot could kill the shield?

 Furyou Miko wrote:
But a penetrating hit taken as a result of overwatch during tank shot could kill the shield?

Is that a HIWPI question? Then no because the shield is not a weapon.

Walks like a duck... talks like a duck...

Must be a duck.

I'd say no, since it's not actually a weapon. You can just choose to use it in a different way, which ends up giving it a weapon profile.

If the answer's yes, however, it opens up another tricky question: If the Eldar player fired his Shield in his last turn (and hence it is down), could you then destroy it in the next turn, or does the shield have to be "up" for it to be destroyed?

 The Shadow wrote:
If the answer's yes, however, it opens up another tricky question: If the Eldar player fired his Shield in his last turn (and hence it is down), could you then destroy it in the next turn, or does the shield have to be "up" for it to be destroyed?

I don't think you can destroy the Shield while it's not a weapon. So, let's go somewhere else to address your question: Interceptor! If I use Interceptor, I can't use that weapon in my next turn. Does this have any relevance to whether the weapon can be destroyed? No.

While I initially said no, I do believe that based on the wording of Weapon Destroyed it can be destroyed. This definitely needs an FAQ (though I believe it would get FAQ'd not to be destroyable).

That being said, HIWPI, is that you lose the offensive capabilities but not the defensive.

 ansacs wrote:
I would argue that it is a wargear that can generate one use weapons. Therefore you could destroy a "serpent shield" weapon but you have no permission to destroy the serpent shield defensive wargear.

HK missiles are one shot weapons with only a single missile therefore when you destroy the individual missile weapon the HK wargear item becomes useless.

I do not agree on this point. There is no such result in the damage table. A weapon is destroyed or operational, there is no partial ablation. So either it is out of reach of any damage, or the piece of wargear with its two profiles are subject to be disabled altogether.

Count me in the camp of people considering WS special shield as a weapon all the way (with vulnerability to damage). As already said, it is in the wargear section, right ? Furthermore, eldar players claim its shots can be twin-linked thanks to the scatter laser. A scatter laser that can twin-link WEAPONS on the same figurine where it is.

I admit the situation is tricky (thank you Phil Kelly... ) and the final answer may take some people by surprise through a laconic answer in a FAQ eventually.

So what gives you permission to damage a weapon that doesn't exist at times? Because a serpent shield is only a weapon that exists between the time it is declared as firing and before it fires.

 Ravajaxe wrote:

As already said, it is in the wargear section, right ?

How does being wargear have anything to do with whether it can be destroyed or not. If being wargear makes it eligible to be destroyed does that mean I can destroy disruption pods or holofields or any other warear? I fail to see why this affects anything in this discussion.

Eldar Codex Page 67 wrote:
In its shooting phase, the Wave Serpent can deactivate its shields to shoot a burst of energy with the following profile (treat this as a hull mounted weapon pointing forward)

So the burst of energy/weapon is not actually the shield at all. the shield is deactivated and allows you to fire the burst of energy. ut, it is under the serpent shield rules so rules wise it is still the shield I guess. It also says that this occurs in the shooting phase. So if its only in the shooting phase then it cannot be destroyed unless done so in the shooting phase its being shot in. Due to after the shooting phase is over it is no longer being treat as a weapon.

SO I would say it can't be destroyed due to being only used in the shooting phase. Also as it is treat as a weapon in the shooting phase it means it benefits from laser lock.

I understand I am probably not conveying my point very well and I'm finding it difficult to explain. But that's what I would say. I would also say the closest thing to it is the deff rolla which we know can't be destroyed. A Seeker Missile I feel is a bad comparison.

Red

I have a couple of questions about the WS shield
A) Should/Would it be able to target a flyer?
B) Should be allowed rerolls to hit if the WS's scatter laser has hit?

 Nicorex wrote:
I have a couple of questions about the WS shield
A) Should/Would it be able to target a flyer?
B) Should be allowed rerolls to hit if the WS's scatter laser has hit?

A)Yes its treat as a hull mounted front weapon when firing why wouldn't it?
B)Yes for the same reason.

If it's not a weapon then you can't TL it with a scatter laser right?