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Hey, Dakka. I am slowly gaining research to start a brand new Word Bearers Army. This army is intended to be semi-competitive, semi-fluff army, and have mostly footsloggers in the ranks. That being said, I am wondering what some effective anti-flier units I can take. Some obvious choices seems to be take a Helldrake or ADL with Nurgle marines. But what else is there that can destroy or at least ward off fliers? Would a Havoc Squad with flakk missiles be alright? Or how about units with twin-linked weapons?

The helldrake has skyfire, but it's stuck with an autocannon. 2 autocannon hits per turn from a unit that costs nearly 200 points isn't really worth it, especially since if your opponent doesn't bring fliers, then they're really not doing very much for their points.

I'd say the best way to handle fliers with CSM is to ignore them and to dominate the ground game instead. Kill all his scoring units and sit on the objectives and then laugh as the fliers don't do anything more than passing casualties.

If you really want to shoot them down, I'd actually be in favor of obliterators here. They can show up after the fliers, and can deepstrike behind them with twin-linked plasma and melta guns. They're also useful when your opponent doesn't bring fliers. You could also sort of do this with combi-weapon terminators, so long as you could place them (by deepstriking or otherwise) next to some other stuff to get into close combat with the following turn.

Otherwise, just take regular anti-tank. An AV12 flier is the same as AV14 against most long-range anti-tank weapons, with the added fact that lesser weapons like plasma guns can hurt them as well. If you've got solid firepower, you shouldn't need anything more to handle fliers well enough to beat your opponents on the ground.

Yeah a Hadesdrake isn't your best option because the Cannon isn't particularly good.

Flamedrakes are always nice to have, and they have decent chances of glancing small flyers to death using daemonforge with vectorstrike.

As Ailaros said, Oblits can work, but they are useful in any list as well.

If you want to target Flyers specifically I would suggest to ally a Vendetta or take the Quadgun. A Havoc squad with Flakk Missiles won't see a shooting phase on a flyer because if the flyer has any value to your opponent he will target exactly this unit first. And if his flyer/s has/have any quality, your havoc squad will die.
In addition, Flakk Missiles are S7, so they are about as effective as a vector striking Flamedrake (who can then do his torrent thing on top of that)

The firestorm redoubt is pretty great. It is 4 TL-lascannon shots at BS2 which fire automatically against the nearest flier/FMC and then against the nearest unit. This is not bad against most flier lists. It is 200 pts but you get an AV14 building and fortification battlements. Best of all is that you can just deploy it and then forget it until you roll to hit, none of this "I have to deploy around this to protect my AA".

ADL is pretty good but don't let it fool you into trapping yourself in your deployment zone. CSM are unlikely to win a standoff fire fight against almost any army and I have seen to many people get seduced by these things into attempting it.

I would not use the hellturkey for this purpose as Ailros said it is lackluster and you would probably be better served at that point by simply focusing on the ground game.

Autocannon havocs are crazy cheap points wise. Throw enough bullets at something and it'll die.

HadesDrakes are fairly decent AA since it's S8 and you can blow daemonforge on it.

Take a Bastion, put a quad gun on top with AC Havocs manning it. You can also hide some Cultists in it for a late game backfield scoring unit.

Take 2 Heldrakes, both can vector strike. Give one a Hades AC.

Ally in a Lord of Change with Flickering Fire. He can also Vector Strike and cast Presience on AC Havocs/Oblits.

Alternatively, you can take a Slaanesh DP with Lash of Despair (Greater Reward) and Wings as your allied HQ. Go for Iron Arm (Biomancy) and fly around whipping vector striking things.

Combined, that should give you enough anti-flier to be semi-competitive. All of those are also very versatile in other aspects of the game, so it offers you options.

Leave three baleflamer on the heldrakes. Vector strike can do damage to a lot of fleets as can auto cannon havocs. Also, triple las cannon predators are fairly decent vs fliers.

Alairos and I don't usually see eye to eye, but in this situation I agree with his statement ignore flyers andfocus down their ground units.

Ignoring fliers usually doesn't work unless you have a strong horde element. Why do you think the aforementioned Heldrake is so good?

What are you gonna do if you're playing vs CSM and you have no answer to their drakes? Cry? Hope they have no answers to yours?

Neither really works.

DEMON ALLIES

A MoK Soulforge works for AA, fits your army and opens up a slot for a Bloodthirster, some bloodletters, or a pack of hounds. All good for Bearer Footslog builds.

Havpcs with missile launchers and flakk in a quad-gun ADL. simple

cod3x wrote:
DEMON ALLIES

A MoK Soulforge works for AA, fits your army and opens up a slot for a Bloodthirster, some bloodletters, or a pack of hounds. All good for Bearer Footslog builds.

What in the world is a "Soulforge"?

hippesthippo wrote:Ignoring fliers usually doesn't work unless you have a strong horde element. Why do you think the aforementioned Heldrake is so good?

Let's say, for a moment, that the only Sv3+ models you have are on regular CSM. And let's say that you know what displacement means, so a bale flamer hits only 4 marines per shot, and let's say that the helldrake gets a whopping 5 shots (comes on the board as soon as it can, never has to fly off for some reason, and doesn't get shot down or lose a weapon). That's 20 hits in this awful scenario, which leads to 221 points killed.

... that's not very much, given the cost of the helldrake. Put the helldrake into a world where you can shoot at it, and it might need to drive off the board once or twice, or the game ends on turn 5, and suddenly, in a more realistic scenario, the helldrake isn't even making its points back. Against its primary target.

And that's still with a pretty much "ignore it" scenario. If you take something that's actually good at killing fliers, even just one or two things, and that hell turkey is going to be a burden on your opponent's list, not a boon.

And that's ignoring all the other benefits to ignoring them...

Thanks for all the replies. I'll definitely look into investing in some Obliterators or maybe one Helldrake. I haven't made a final decision yet, but these all will influence me one way or another.
I'm not too concerned about fliers, as the meta at the gamestores I frequent don't have many armies with them. Still, I'd like to have something on the off-chance there are. Again, thanks for all the comments and suggestions.

 Ailaros wrote:

hippesthippo wrote:Ignoring fliers usually doesn't work unless you have a strong horde element. Why do you think the aforementioned Heldrake is so good?

Let's say, for a moment, that the only Sv3+ models you have are on regular CSM. And let's say that you know what displacement means, so a bale flamer hits only 4 marines per shot, and let's say that the helldrake gets a whopping 5 shots (comes on the board as soon as it can, never has to fly off for some reason, and doesn't get shot down or lose a weapon). That's 20 hits in this awful scenario, which leads to 221 points killed.

... that's not very much, given the cost of the helldrake. Put the helldrake into a world where you can shoot at it, and it might need to drive off the board once or twice, or the game ends on turn 5, and suddenly, in a more realistic scenario, the helldrake isn't even making its points back. Against its primary target.

And that's still with a pretty much "ignore it" scenario. If you take something that's actually good at killing fliers, even just one or two things, and that hell turkey is going to be a burden on your opponent's list, not a boon.

And that's ignoring all the other benefits to ignoring them...

Since when is twenty dead marines only 200 pts? Who takes twenty naked marines? And Heldrakes can vector .. And.. And.. I'll stop there. You have no idea what you're talking about, that much is obvious. Try playing the game actually, against a competent opponent, then report back and we might have a sensible conversation. Find me one other person on this planet that agrees with you. Simply trying to ignore Heldrakes with a marine army is suicide.

He asked for ways to deal with fliers. I listed several reasonable options. You suggested ignoring them. And then you have the gumption to stick a word in my face, suggesting I don't even know how to spread my models out? That isn't even what displacement means! You best check yourself before you make yourself look an even bigger fool.

Please, do it. Explain to me all of "the other," benefits of ignoring a model which will practically wipe your crappy army off the table by itself.

20 hits * .844 wounds * 13 points per model = 219.4

If only naked rudness could beat cold hard math...

And the other benefits include having an anti-flier strategy that works just as well when your opponents don't bring fliers, and they include an anti-flier strategy that focuses on objectives and secondaries, you know, how you win the game, and playing strengths to your opponents' weaknesses on the ground.

Of course, none of this matters because clearly I don't know what I'm talking about...

Derp.

In my limited experience in 40K, the one time I ever faced off against a flier (some newfangled Forge World model in a Space Wolf army), it didn't do much. If I ignored it, maybe the game would have gone differently.
Anyways, if you guys are going to argue, please do so in a different thread.

 Ailaros wrote:
20 hits * .844 wounds * 13 points per model = 219.4

If only naked rudness could beat cold hard math...

And the other benefits include having an anti-flier strategy that works just as well when your opponents don't bring fliers, and they include an anti-flier strategy that focuses on objectives and secondaries, you know, how you win the game, and playing strengths to your opponents' weaknesses on the ground.

Of course, none of this matters because clearly I don't know what I'm talking about...

Derp.

I guess what he meant was most csm armies are full of plasma plague marines (so, ~40 ppm), melta chosen (~35 ppm) and other very expensive 3+ models such as havocs. Hitting 4 havocs with a baleflamer template (from the right angle) is essentially 115+ worth of points gone in a single hit. The other bad situation that occurs is if you ride is blown up and you pile out only to get flamed.. I've lost squads of KBs that way.

Personally I think an allied herald of Tzeentch and a squad of horrors, as well as having autocannon havocs and oblits in your army is the way to go. Both the horrors and the herald put out a lot of str 6 shooting. Prescience and Perfect timing help you hit and help eliminate those jink saves. Scriers gaze lets you manipulate objectives into skyfire objectives which is darn handy too. Plus vector striking when appropriate from you heldrakes can do lots of damage.

There are fliers you should ignore. But they are valks or eldar fliers, not heldrakes imho

 sub-zero wrote:

cod3x wrote:
DEMON ALLIES

A MoK Soulforge works for AA, fits your army and opens up a slot for a Bloodthirster, some bloodletters, or a pack of hounds. All good for Bearer Footslog builds.

What in the world is a "Soulforge"?

I believe he meant Soulgrinder. 135 points for a skyfire AC and power fist isn't too bad, especially on an AV13 body.

 lunarman wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
20 hits * .844 wounds * 13 points per model = 219.4

If only naked rudness could beat cold hard math...

And the other benefits include having an anti-flier strategy that works just as well when your opponents don't bring fliers, and they include an anti-flier strategy that focuses on objectives and secondaries, you know, how you win the game, and playing strengths to your opponents' weaknesses on the ground.

Of course, none of this matters because clearly I don't know what I'm talking about...

Derp.

I guess what he meant was most csm armies are full of plasma plague marines (so, ~40 ppm), melta chosen (~35 ppm) and other very expensive 3+ models such as havocs. Hitting 4 havocs with a baleflamer template (from the right angle) is essentially 115+ worth of points gone in a single hit. The other bad situation that occurs is if you ride is blown up and you pile out only to get flamed.. I've lost squads of KBs that way.

Personally I think an allied herald of Tzeentch and a squad of horrors, as well as having autocannon havocs and oblits in your army is the way to go. Both the horrors and the herald put out a lot of str 6 shooting. Prescience and Perfect timing help you hit and help eliminate those jink saves. Scriers gaze lets you manipulate objectives into skyfire objectives which is darn handy too. Plus vector striking when appropriate from you heldrakes can do lots of damage.

There are fliers you should ignore. But they are valks or eldar fliers, not heldrakes imho

Dont put your plasma gunner on the outside so it cant be killed first.

Also melta chosen are 28 points, a bit less than 35.

Dont take KB, especilly against heldrakes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ailaros wrote:

hippesthippo wrote:Ignoring fliers usually doesn't work unless you have a strong horde element. Why do you think the aforementioned Heldrake is so good?

Let's say, for a moment, that the only Sv3+ models you have are on regular CSM. And let's say that you know what displacement means, so a bale flamer hits only 4 marines per shot, and let's say that the helldrake gets a whopping 5 shots (comes on the board as soon as it can, never has to fly off for some reason, and doesn't get shot down or lose a weapon). That's 20 hits in this awful scenario, which leads to 221 points killed.

... that's not very much, given the cost of the helldrake. Put the helldrake into a world where you can shoot at it, and it might need to drive off the board once or twice, or the game ends on turn 5, and suddenly, in a more realistic scenario, the helldrake isn't even making its points back. Against its primary target.

And that's still with a pretty much "ignore it" scenario. If you take something that's actually good at killing fliers, even just one or two things, and that hell turkey is going to be a burden on your opponent's list, not a boon.

And that's ignoring all the other benefits to ignoring them...

5 vector strikes is another 15 hits, 162 points under ideal conditions killing 13 point marines.

As others have said, havocs with autocannons seem to be the best chaos have to offer for anti air.

Either that or a forgefiend with hades autocannons? They are strength 8 I believe. The BS of 3 compared to 4 for the Havocs also means nothing when shooting at fliers without Skyfire so it is all down to points costs and survivability.

 rohansoldier wrote:
As others have said, havocs with autocannons seem to be the best chaos have to offer for anti air.

Either that or a forgefiend with hades autocannons? They are strength 8 I believe. The BS of 3 compared to 4 for the Havocs also means nothing when shooting at fliers without Skyfire so it is all down to points costs and survivability.

I've run the numbers before and Hadesfiends are the best ground based non Fortification Chaos unit after the very expensive Flakk Havocs.

I will refrain from arguing as the OP requested, and simply point out the other posters who have proven my points.

I guess no one was interested in the firestorm redoubt that was just released and adds excellent AA firepower with no additional support necessary?

Since that option is being ignored does the OP play with FW or allies? Both of these provide far better AA than most of the other options mentioned.

 lunarman wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
20 hits * .844 wounds * 13 points per model = 219.4

If only naked rudness could beat cold hard math...

And the other benefits include having an anti-flier strategy that works just as well when your opponents don't bring fliers, and they include an anti-flier strategy that focuses on objectives and secondaries, you know, how you win the game, and playing strengths to your opponents' weaknesses on the ground.

Of course, none of this matters because clearly I don't know what I'm talking about...

Derp.

I guess what he meant was most csm armies are full of plasma plague marines (so, ~40 ppm), melta chosen (~35 ppm) and other very expensive 3+ models such as havocs. Hitting 4 havocs with a baleflamer template (from the right angle) is essentially 115+ worth of points gone in a single hit. The other bad situation that occurs is if you ride is blown up and you pile out only to get flamed.. I've lost squads of KBs that way.

Personally I think an allied herald of Tzeentch and a squad of horrors, as well as having autocannon havocs and oblits in your army is the way to go. Both the horrors and the herald put out a lot of str 6 shooting. Prescience and Perfect timing help you hit and help eliminate those jink saves. Scriers gaze lets you manipulate objectives into skyfire objectives which is darn handy too. Plus vector striking when appropriate from you heldrakes can do lots of damage.

There are fliers you should ignore. But they are valks or eldar fliers, not heldrakes imho

Of course Plague Marines are considerably more resilient to bale flamer hits then regular marines. Assuming you lose no special weapons, then 20 bale flamer hits will kill 8.8888 plague marines. At 25 points ppm, that brings us to 222.

But yes, as far as chosen and havocs are concerned, the helldrake is to be feared.

I would think that placing (2) vengeance weapon batteries, near the center of the table would be pretty good aircraft deterrent. Considering that the punisher cannon is Heavy 20!

Nevermind, it's only Str 5.

 sub-zero wrote:
I would think that placing (2) vengeance weapon batteries, near the center of the table would be pretty good aircraft deterrent. Considering that the punisher cannon is Heavy 20!

Nevermind, it's only Str 5.

That is why they made: Wall of Martyrs - Firestorm Redoubt

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod2130100a&_requestid=361780

 ansacs wrote:

 sub-zero wrote:
I would think that placing (2) vengeance weapon batteries, near the center of the table would be pretty good aircraft deterrent. Considering that the punisher cannon is Heavy 20!

Nevermind, it's only Str 5.

That is why they made: Wall of Martyrs - Firestorm Redoubt

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod2130100a&_requestid=361780

Don't forget it also has a bunker, so you're immune to Vector Strikes and taking D6 flame hits vs 5-6 being covered by the template.

Chaos Hellblade Flier

4 TL Autocannon Shots S7 AP4 as BS 3 for the same points as a 5-man Havoc Squad with 4 Autocannons.

In fact, take one of each.

I don't think anyone said this yet, but I could be wrong (posting from my phone while at class )...

Forgefiends pack one hell of a punch. A naked fiend with twine Hades Autocannon will crank out 8 bs3 shots a turn. Still you need 6's to hit, but its effective against both ground and air units. Use Daemonsforge of when something REALLY needs to die.

Are there better options then this? Yeah. But it's still quite fun to use