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Hey Guys,

Just got back from a tournament yesterday as a observer/spectator & thought I would share my observations. I had a great time, met some fun people but there were some things that caught me off guard that I wanted to share. I would like to add this is one of my first tournaments I have ever attended. There was roughly 20-30 people in attendance.

1) Forgeworld products not permitted whatsoever. This wasn't just the perception of the tournament organizer, but the players as well. To sum up the general attitude towards Forgeworld products it was "Forgeworld units stats are superior to GW so they can sell units." I was really disappointed by this. I had plans to purchase a few Forgeworld units & it seems every place I have visited has the same attitude.

2) 80% of the armies hadn't been touched with paint.

3) Noticed 2 Dark Angels players playing against one another. When I brought up Cypher the fallen angel, & asked them what they thought about possibility of him possessing the Lionsword, the greatsword of the Dark Angel primarch neither of them seemed interested. I don't think they knew what I was talking about. Just surprised me that 2 Dark Angels players had no knowledge of something within their own codex or even seemed to care.

4) All armies were represented except imperial guard, dark eldar, tyranids. About 1/3 of the people present were Tau.

5) With the exception of 1 Ork player, no fluffy lists were used. Seemed that on almost every table armies were min/maxed to perfection & or lists they copied off the net. I spent most of the evening watching the Ork player. He didn't do well, but he was having a blast regardless.

6) About half the games in which Tau were fielded, opponents that were not Tau just conceded. Looked like both sides of the table weren't really having fun.

7) Most of the community was older, which was refreshing.

8) Apparently most of the players present have known each other for a long time. They travel all over & attend just about every 40k event in the area. While I think that is awesome, it also means their toxic mindset towards FW products exists everywhere in immediate area.

9) While I did meet some really nice people I felt many looked at me as a outsider. If I asked a question about someones army, I was asked "Do you even play 40k?" I was taken back a bit. I do play 40k, but I don't know the rules of every codex. I went out of my way to compliment peoples armies as in many cases even the unpainted ones had awesome basing. While some were receptive I caught a few glares.

Is this what its like in your local area?

Sorry to hear your first tourney was like that. Generally in my area it is hyper-competitive. To the point that tourneys are not worth going to and is a waste of gasoline.

The tourney crowd is all about min-maxing. It is the nature of a zero-sum competition event. I swear, I played a flying circus army that had a lower model count than me (by a lot) and took 3 times as long to just set up. It was the most boring game I have ever played. During his turn, he just rolls on charts and I just sit there and watch him roll and reroll dice. Horribly boring game. I'l not play a flying circus willfully again.

As for jackwagons, well there are always some. My advice is to avoid tourneys unless they are a charity event. Friendly pick-up games, league games, and fluff battle scenarios are by far more satisfying in the long run.

All I can say is get used to it because that basically is what tournaments tend to be like. A tournament is a hyper competitive arena where players take the latest armies and the most powerful lists. Much of the fun is sucked out of the game with everyone playing with a WAAC mentality.

 Gandohar wrote:
All I can say is get used to it because that basically is what tournaments tend to be like. A tournament is a hyper competitive arena where players take the latest armies and the most powerful lists. Much of the fun is sucked out of the game with everyone playing with a WAAC mentality.

WAAC has nothing to do with tournament play. WAAC is someone who will cheat to win. Try that in a tournament with a TO watching.


Not everyone is looking for the same thing in this hobby. I personally don't care for the fluff. I enjoy the tactical aspect of the game, and trying to build the nastiest list that I can. There's no reason that everyone's enjoyment of the hobby has to come from the same source. If you don't like tournaments, then don't go to tournaments, but don't call tournament players "WAAC". That's akin to calling someone a douchebag.

WAAC doesn't necessarily mean they'll cheat to win, it generally means they'll sacrifice the fun of the game or being a good sport to win.

That's a really strange environment, and I'm sorry to hear it. I went to a tournament a couple weeks ago and it was way, way different. Forgeworld units were allowed (including Forgeworld army lists) and there was a decent spread of armies. I'm kinda shocked there were no IG at yours, since there were 3 at mine, including one allied with Sisters of Battle. The Tau players at the tournament I went to wound up near the bottom, while Eldar and Chaos won out. It was also a much friendlier environment than yours with comp scores and an easygoing tone, but frankly that's the only way I like to play. 40k is too silly to take that seriously.

 Brother SRM wrote:
WAAC doesn't necessarily mean they'll cheat to win, it generally means they'll sacrifice the fun of the game or being a good sport to win.

That's a really strange environment, and I'm sorry to hear it. I went to a tournament a couple weeks ago and it was way, way different. Forgeworld units were allowed (including Forgeworld army lists) and there was a decent spread of armies. I'm kinda shocked there were no IG at yours, since there were 3 at mine, including one allied with Sisters of Battle. The Tau players at the tournament I went to wound up near the bottom, while Eldar and Chaos won out. It was also a much friendlier environment than yours with comp scores and an easygoing tone, but frankly that's the only way I like to play. 40k is too silly to take that seriously.

That is how I have always played 40k. I played back in 3rd edition & it was a much different environment then. Obviously the army lists were much different, but the general attitude was more about fun. This is the 1st time I have attended said tournament. The rewards were pretty nice, perhaps that is what brought out the more competitive players. I love competitive 40k as much as the next person, but it just kind of blows me away how some people get into it with no interest in the story or their armies.

 Gandohar wrote:
All I can say is get used to it because that basically is what tournaments tend to be like. A tournament is a hyper competitive arena where players take the latest armies and the most powerful lists. Much of the fun is sucked out of the game with everyone playing with a WAAC mentality.

That's not at all universal.

I've played in a bunch of tournaments here in Oz over the last couple of years, and had a blast at all of them. Some had comp scoring (which cuts down on the min-maxed lists) and some didn't... and while the non-comp events definitely saw more hardcore lists, due to largely being made up of the same core local player base were still just as much fun.

It's far more about that core player base than it is about the event. If your local core group is made up up WAAC players who just want to use the hardest lists, show up with unpainted armies, and act like donkeys, then that attitude will spread through the events that those players participate in. If they're a bit less hardcore about the whole thing, then that's the attitude that spreads.


But even in more hardcore events, there is no excuse for rudeness. I played in the 40K Championships and Combat Patrol at Adepticon last year. Super-competitive environment, no comp scoring... and with one exception played awesome games against friendly players. And that one exception wasn't unfriendly... just a slightly different mindset to the other guys I played.

I just attended a tourney and came in 5th.

Had a great time. Tau Eldar 1st and second. I play Nids and the Eldar are just brutal on nids now.

I agree with thier opinion of Forgeworld. Thier models are given good stats to get people to buy them. This hoby is expensive enough already, no need to give the more affluent players an even bigger advantage... At least not in a competative setting.

Pick up games and even some leagues, sure.

It really depends on the tournament you attend. Clearly, you've attended one of the more hyper-competitive tournaments, where people attend because they want to win (primarily) and play games. The tournament you attended would have been structured to reward competitive, tactical play while ignoring other aspects of the hobby.

Other tournaments have a completely different vibe. Some require all armies to be painted. Some award additional points based on the standard of painting, presentation of army lists, sportsmanship, modelling abilities and so on. For many players at these types of tournaments, winning is still an important goal, but having fun is more important.

Most tournaments fall somewhere in between. You can always spot these tournaments. Generally by game 2 (especially if using the Swiss socring system) all the hyper-competitive players are at the top end of the room, sweating and playing in near silence while at the other end of the room, the lower scoring, "fluffier" players are laughing uproariously, joking with their opponnents, congratulating them on outrageous luck or clever tactics and generally having the time of their lives.

As you can probably gather, it's these "middle-ground" tournaments that I tend to love the most.

However, I have to admit that the first thing I did when I read your post was check the country icon next to your dakka id. I wasn't surprised to see you live in the USA. I would say that the proportion of tournaments which fall into the hyper-competitive character tends to be much higher than it is the UK, which in turn seems to have a higher proportion of tense, competitive tournaments than say, Australia.

Like many other things in life, your mileage may vary. All the more so depending on where in the world you live.

Commissar Benny wrote:
1) Forgeworld products not permitted whatsoever. This wasn't just the perception of the tournament organizer, but the players as well. To sum up the general attitude towards Forgeworld products it was "Forgeworld units stats are superior to GW so they can sell units." I was really disappointed by this. I had plans to purchase a few Forgeworld units & it seems every place I have visited has the same attitude.

Ooh Lord, what a lot of bs -_-'
Let me tell you their real feeling: "I will take any chance to limit my opponents in their game, because that makes me win."
Most FW-models are really underwhelming over overpriced for what they do.
And the ones that are 'OP' are nowhere as OP as some normal codex rules.

I would not play in a group that disallows FW, just like I would refuse to play in a group that disallows Tau.
Both are a legal addition to the game and it's stupid to just forbid it based on some misplaced feelings.


About the DA-players: Some people might not play the game for the lore.
This Tuesday I am starting on my third army and I hardly know anything about the fluff.
If someone were to mention special characters (with no models) and the names of their weapons I wouldn't know what the hell he was talking about.

Kangodo wrote:

Commissar Benny wrote:
1) Forgeworld products not permitted whatsoever. This wasn't just the perception of the tournament organizer, but the players as well. To sum up the general attitude towards Forgeworld products it was "Forgeworld units stats are superior to GW so they can sell units." I was really disappointed by this. I had plans to purchase a few Forgeworld units & it seems every place I have visited has the same attitude.

Ooh Lord, what a lot of bs -_-'
Let me tell you their real feeling: "I will take any chance to limit my opponents in their game, because that makes me win."
Most FW-models are really underwhelming over overpriced for what they do.
And the ones that are 'OP' are nowhere as OP as some normal codex rules.

I would not play in a group that disallows FW, just like I would refuse to play in a group that disallows Tau.
Both are a legal addition to the game and it's stupid to just forbid it based on some misplaced feelings.


About the DA-players: Some people might not play the game for the lore.
This Tuesday I am starting on my third army and I hardly know anything about the fluff.
If someone were to mention special characters (with no models) and the names of their weapons I wouldn't know what the hell he was talking about.

To the bolded:

No they are not. One is a core army of the game, the other is an optional add on to it that you normally need permission to run.

No where near the same ball park.

Not at all. GW has recently ruled that Forge World models and army lists are now tournament legal in 6th edition games. You can now bring Forgeworld to official GW run tournaments. Non GW tournaments are perfectly entitled to make up their own minds about Forge World though.

Just be clear on this now: the Forge World models with the 40K stamp as now tournament legal. The Apocalypse stamped ones are only legal in Apocalypse tournaments.

Yes, that means Land Raider Spartans and even Storm Eagles are a common site in MEQ tournament lists now. And for good reason.

Which is dumb, it just makes tournaments even more "pay to play" than they were.

When I say recently, I mean as of January 2013. I do understand your point of view though. The player with the fattest wallet has always had a certain advantage in tournaments though, so the situation hasn't really changed so much as it has been exacerbated by the decision.

 LeadLegion wrote:
Not at all. GW has recently ruled that Forge World models and army lists are now tournament legal in 6th edition games. You can now bring Forgeworld to official GW run tournaments. Non GW tournaments are perfectly entitled to make up their own minds about Forge World though.

Just be clear on this now: the Forge World models with the 40K stamp as now tournament legal. The Apocalypse stamped ones are only legal in Apocalypse tournaments.

Yes, that means Land Raider Spartans and even Storm Eagles are a common site in MEQ tournament lists now. And for good reason.

This has been a rumor for a long time and GW has never released a statement on it.

I could be wrong, but I'm fairly certain I've seen official GW tournament packs where they explicitly state that Forgeworld models with the 40K stamp are allowed (but I read a lot of tournament packs, and my memory may be playing tricks).

That being said, I've not heard of anyone being penalised or turned away from the a GW tournament for bringing Forgeworld since January of this year either.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
Which is dumb, it just makes tournaments even more "pay to play" than they were.

Please tell me how FW can improve my necron wraithwing list?

Commissar Benny wrote:


3) Noticed 2 Dark Angels players playing against one another. When I brought up Cypher the fallen angel, & asked them what they thought about possibility of him possessing the Lionsword, the greatsword of the Dark Angel primarch neither of them seemed interested. I don't think they knew what I was talking about. Just surprised me that 2 Dark Angels players had no knowledge of something within their own codex or even seemed to care.


9) While I did meet some really nice people I felt many looked at me as a outsider. If I asked a question about someones army, I was asked "Do you even play 40k?" I was taken back a bit. I do play 40k, but I don't know the rules of every codex. I went out of my way to compliment peoples armies as in many cases even the unpainted ones had awesome basing. While some were receptive I caught a few glares.

Seems like you have an expectation that players will engage with you on fluff discussions while they're playing a game under time constraints. Ever consider that you were distracting them from what they we're tying to do?

Ah pardon me.

I've just checked the Battle Brothers and Throne of Skulls 2013 event packs and I've noted that, while Forge World models are legal if they represent units from the Codex, Forge World units and Army lists are NOT legal at either of these two major tournaments.

It seems I was mistaken.

Quote from the last page of the Throne of Skulls pack:
"Forge World and Warhammer Forge rules and Army Lists are not in use at Throne of Skulls events."

From the last page of the battle brothers pack:
"Forge World and Warhammer Forge rules and Army Lists are not in use at Battle Brothers events."

However, they ARE allowed in certain other (less competitive) events such as Campaign Weekends (the Horus Heresy ones being an obvious example).

My local tournament is a bit of a mix.

We had a huge (for us- small store..) doubles tournament yesterday, and i'm beat.

The competitiveness meter runs everything from semi-competitive fun lists to shenanigan list (like having a tau commander fire two quad guns simultaneously or 'how many MSS can i fit in my list..)

Forgeworld is not allowed, but that's jsut the store's rule. Models yes, as codex units, but not FW units/lists. The only people who care are travelling tourney players who expect FW to be allowed everywhere they go, and will argue it's legality when the store TO tells them we don't allow it.

I enjoy the local tournaments, but a few of the players don't know how to have a relaxed and fun game, and get a bit uptight when they lose. They also tend to be poor winners, bragging about every good dice roll and lucky break as if they had planned it before the game began. I think this is the norm for most large groups of gamers though. A few D-bags, a few rather odd folk, most others great guys/gals to play.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
I agree with thier opinion of Forgeworld. Thier models are given good stats to get people to buy them. This hoby is expensive enough already, no need to give the more affluent players an even bigger advantage... At least not in a competative setting.

And that's different that codex-only 40k?

(It isn't.)

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

Kangodo wrote:

Commissar Benny wrote:
1) Forgeworld products not permitted whatsoever. This wasn't just the perception of the tournament organizer, but the players as well. To sum up the general attitude towards Forgeworld products it was "Forgeworld units stats are superior to GW so they can sell units." I was really disappointed by this. I had plans to purchase a few Forgeworld units & it seems every place I have visited has the same attitude.

Ooh Lord, what a lot of bs -_-'
Let me tell you their real feeling: "I will take any chance to limit my opponents in their game, because that makes me win."
Most FW-models are really underwhelming over overpriced for what they do.
And the ones that are 'OP' are nowhere as OP as some normal codex rules.

I would not play in a group that disallows FW, just like I would refuse to play in a group that disallows Tau.
Both are a legal addition to the game and it's stupid to just forbid it based on some misplaced feelings.


About the DA-players: Some people might not play the game for the lore.
This Tuesday I am starting on my third army and I hardly know anything about the fluff.
If someone were to mention special characters (with no models) and the names of their weapons I wouldn't know what the hell he was talking about.

To the bolded:

No they are not. One is a core army of the game, the other is an optional add on to it that you normally need permission to run.

No where near the same ball park.

same old FW/Anti FW argument...... one group says noooo no its not its not codex, gw says in our entries in our official books its to be added as a unit for codex x, y or z and is for use in normal 40k. even helpfully gives a FoC slot for it to go in as well..

oh and to those that think FW is pay to win in tournaments or any other games, how many people go out and codex jump with new codex's to try and win with the new dex? that sounds a lot like paying to win to me. need to have 1 of every army, updated every edition.

 Ascalam wrote:
My local tournament is a bit of a mix.

We had a huge (for us- small store..) doubles tournament yesterday, and i'm beat.

The competitiveness meter runs everything from semi-competitive fun lists to shenanigan list (like having a tau commander fire two quad guns simultaneously or 'how many MSS can i fit in my list..)

Forgeworld is not allowed, but that's jsut the store's rule. Models yes, as codex units, but not FW units/lists. The only people who care are travelling tourney players who expect FW to be allowed everywhere they go, and will argue it's legality when the store TO tells them we don't allow it.

I enjoy the local tournaments, but a few of the players don't know how to have a relaxed and fun game, and get a bit uptight when they lose. They also tend to be poor winners, bragging about every good dice roll and lucky break as if they had planned it before the game began. I think this is the norm for most large groups of gamers though. A few D-bags, a few rather odd folk, most others great guys/gals to play.

Feth Forgeworld and the capitalistic dogs that they are!!! Just kidding of course.

But in all seriousness I have had to kick out players in the tournaments that I do run due to the WAAC/ FW elitist mentality. These people actually believe they are entitled too because they have their man toys they purchased. Screw them as IMHO they these people have helped with the decline of 40K in general. As long as I run my tournaments, "The Spirit of the Game" shall be enforced. People come to play in my tournaments to have fun. You can have fun being competitive. That is not the issue. The issue is this that a small group of people, some of them interweb celebs, have ego issues and generally ruins it all for the rest of us who are trying to have fun in some sort of tournament setting.

Commissar Benny wrote:
Hey Guys,
Just got back from a tournament yesterday as a observer/spectator & thought I would share my observations. I had a great time, met some fun people but there were some things that caught me off guard that I wanted to share. I would like to add this is one of my first tournaments I have ever attended. There was roughly 20-30 people in attendance.
1) Forgeworld products not permitted whatsoever. This wasn't just the perception of the tournament organizer, but the players as well. To sum up the general attitude towards Forgeworld products it was "Forgeworld units stats are superior to GW so they can sell units." I was really disappointed by this. I had plans to purchase a few Forgeworld units & it seems every place I have visited has the same attitude.
2) 80% of the armies hadn't been touched with paint.
3) Noticed 2 Dark Angels players playing against one another. When I brought up Cypher the fallen angel, & asked them what they thought about possibility of him possessing the Lionsword, the greatsword of the Dark Angel primarch neither of them seemed interested. I don't think they knew what I was talking about. Just surprised me that 2 Dark Angels players had no knowledge of something within their own codex or even seemed to care.
4) All armies were represented except imperial guard, dark eldar, tyranids. About 1/3 of the people present were Tau.
5) With the exception of 1 Ork player, no fluffy lists were used. Seemed that on almost every table armies were min/maxed to perfection & or lists they copied off the net. I spent most of the evening watching the Ork player. He didn't do well, but he was having a blast regardless.
6) About half the games in which Tau were fielded, opponents that were not Tau just conceded. Looked like both sides of the table weren't really having fun.
7) Most of the community was older, which was refreshing.
8) Apparently most of the players present have known each other for a long time. They travel all over & attend just about every 40k event in the area. While I think that is awesome, it also means their toxic mindset towards FW products exists everywhere in immediate area.
9) While I did meet some really nice people I felt many looked at me as a outsider. If I asked a question about someones army, I was asked "Do you even play 40k?" I was taken back a bit. I do play 40k, but I don't know the rules of every codex. I went out of my way to compliment peoples armies as in many cases even the unpainted ones had awesome basing. While some were receptive I caught a few glares.
Is this what its like in your local area?

1) FW if someone puts it together and paints it I/we would hate to try to disallow it. Things to keep in mind: the downloadable rules they state are Experimental only when published they are final. You need an official copy of your codex so you must have a Forgeworld book on you if you use the model.
2) That is typical. The better people have paint slapped on rather hastily and 5% have armies painted to a good standard.
3) Maybe one third would be happy to hear or speak of fluff, most are there to play with intent to win (not a bad thing).
4) Some form of marines, IG, Some form of eldar and Orks in that order. No Tau so far.
5) No many net lists, but bits and pieces of the scarier combinations, they tend to make some of the net lists with the core the same but interesting supporting changes.
6) I like a challenge, not understanding why anyone would just quit. Every battle burns into your mind the capabilities of the opposing force: why pass on a learning opportunity?
7) Even split of very young and over 30 crowd.
8) Just because old does not immediately create hate for FW. They have made many models with a nod to the old styles that many of us have. They are great to slip into an old style army as transition pieces from an older model of Rhino, FW type and GW modern one.
9) When someone will reply with a rather snotty answer like that it means = get lost, or I will make you look bad so I feel good. I would reply appropriately with something like: Not with anyone like you that is for sure...
To receive glares in a hobby setting is a bit silly, these people need to get over themselves.
Every group has some socially challenged people but most are great.
I would see what else is around locally, these fellows do not seem any fun at all.

Though I hate seeing people not putting care in their armies (unpainted model syndrome), it's a tournament I expect people who come to play to win.

Tournies can be pricey. Usually from the $10-20 range plus gas means if I'm going to spend my Saturday at a store I'm going to do my best to win.

Min/maxed lists are to be anticipated and you need to make sure you are bringing your lists to win as well.

Ultimately though, it's the players that make a game fun or not. If you have a good gaming group, a tournie will be fun regardless.

I dont mean to sound like I hate FW.

I dont. I love many of their models. I used to run their Broadside models back in 4th when the GW ones had the rails mounted up on their shoulders and looked Dumb.... FW was the answer. And expensive answer but yeah...

I just dont expect for specialty units to be competition legal.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
I just attended a tourney and came in 5th.

Had a great time. Tau Eldar 1st and second. I play Nids and the Eldar are just brutal on nids now.

I agree with thier opinion of Forgeworld. Thier models are given good stats to get people to buy them. This hoby is expensive enough already, no need to give the more affluent players an even bigger advantage... At least not in a competative setting.

Pick up games and even some leagues, sure.

Sounds to me like you've never even read any of the stats/costs/info on forge world units, and are just talking out your rear.

Locrian wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
I just attended a tourney and came in 5th.

Had a great time. Tau Eldar 1st and second. I play Nids and the Eldar are just brutal on nids now.

I agree with thier opinion of Forgeworld. Thier models are given good stats to get people to buy them. This hoby is expensive enough already, no need to give the more affluent players an even bigger advantage... At least not in a competative setting.

Pick up games and even some leagues, sure.

Sounds to me like you've never even read any of the stats/costs/info on forge world units, and are just talking out your rear.

Whatever blows your skirt up.......

Of course, it really does depend on which tournament you go to...

... that said, "tournament" is basically a by-word for "play to win", which means you're going to see a bias towards people who play the game in the easiest difficulty mode possible so that they can win a dice game slightly more than other people.

The fact that you see people who don't care at all about the fluff or the painting of their models, or anything else with regard to winning (which, if their aren't soft scores (which are usually complained about ad nauseum) means that you don't need to care about them AT ALL) isn't that terribly surprising.

That gunlines are the easiest army (and thus the easiest to win with) and that tau are the gunliniest army, and thus tau are the most common army isn't that surprising either.

Thankfully, only a small percentage of 40k players play in larger tournaments, which means that only a small percentage of players exhibit the kind of behavior you find so repulsive.

I originally started playing in the mid/late 90's, back in 2nd ed when the game was Way Waaaaaayyyy more casual. For that reason when getting back into it recently I've been really weary of what the attitude will be like.

From everything I've heard, my local game store and it's tournaments have a very laid back, friendly attitude. The tournaments are have an entry fee of $10 or so, but instead of $ for prizes for the winners (for which their are multiple catagories every month, only one of which is Best General) they do a raffle at the end of the day.

What, a tournament that costs money and doesn't have prizes for the winners? Who would want to attend that???

Apparently -everyone-, as the place was packed, with at least 20 players entered from my accounting, and a good deal more just there to watch. And as the prize for coming in first is a small medalion and bragging rights, everyone there is, from what I've been told, cool, laid back, and there for Fun, with army lists and gaming styles to match (I was told by one of my friends competing that maybe 3 out of the 20 lists were hardcore minmaxed nonsense).

Which is exactly what I personally want from a tournament and an environment.I want to play in a place where losing is less important than playing, and where a good, close battle is better for Both sides than a blowout. That's what it's like where I play, apparently, and I'm extremely glad about it.