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So I am looking to start an Eldar army and the Phoenix lords Maugan Ra and Fuegan have caught my eye. I know enough that looks cool and tactically sound do not always go together, so I ask all of you. Which of the Phoenix lords is the best option to build around? If they are not the best to do so, is Yriel is better option?

There are about three or so threads on this so the answer and the 'IMHO' would be on dakka somewhere already..
Ps JAIN ZAR FOR PRESIDENT!!

Strayan wrote:
There are about three or so threads on this so the answer and the 'IMHO' would be on dakka somewhere already..
Ps JAIN ZAR FOR PRESIDENT!!

I did read a few of the threads, but they seem to focus more on who they personally liked instead of a more tactical view of whether or not they were worth their points or could be built around.

Well in that case it ReALLY depends on what your target is... TEQ= JZ .. Tank/ monster =Fueg .. Monster/ MeQ instagib = Kar.. I personally can't see the worth in Baha or M Ra, as they more of their aspect warriors for the same cost can do so much more..
The best part is the mix and match In the new Dex especially with allies.. Like Jain zar with harlequins (can't see her till its too late and then -5 WS In on charge..) or fuegan with grotesques imagination is the key

Just like the Aspect Warriors themselves - each is best suited to a particular role. So the best Phoenix Lord really depends on the rest of your army and how you usually play.

Personally, I would prefer taking Asurmen. I already have a unit of Dire Avengers as my only Aspect Warriors (it's Iyanden Wraiths otherwise), and having a 4W Eternal Warrior who (with his extra Warlord Traits) has half a chance to get his 2+ save *rerollable*, the life expectancy of that unit jumps up dramatically.
However, I would also never take him because Farseers and Spiritseers are just too useful.

I like Fuegan as he can add a good tank hunting chance (2 melta shots at better range, BS7), without impeding the shooting of a unit he's with (split fire if he's warlord).

He is basically a to-go guy for any job as he's no slouch in CC either.

Having just run Asurmen in a tourney (1750) i can say he is a monster. I managed to get reroll 1's for saves in 2 of the 4 games and he was at that point, almost unkillable.

Good combat stats, AP2, soul razor makes enemy characters think twice (remove from play FTW!).

My last game saw him kill some 10 mega nobs, a warboss and 5 normal nobs as well as a swathe of lootas...

His shoot is lack luster though in 2 of the games he got hold of the enemy quad gun - that was fun!

Feugan or even baharroth are probably the most rounded, karandras kills units and monsters like a boss but jain zar and maugan ra are lackluster IMO.

Zar suffers from the grenade handycap the plagues her aspect (mitigated by joining harlequins or an archon with phantasm launcher from the DE) though really, this lack of nades hurts her only a little - much less than her aspect in any case. The drop in enemy WS is also a serious boost to her survival.

Ra is just meh these days. An ok gun with ok combat ability and not much else.

I would disagree with Massaen on JZ being lackluster.... like most your assuming every last unit is hiding in cover... she's an AP2 elite eating BOSS!!! even if CC termies charge HER she would STILL win...
As for Baharoth.. well I can't see it... 'well rounded' for PL's just means great at nothing... I can't see him doing anything that two squads of Hawks or one elite squad can't do better for same/ less points..
But am listening very intently to the whole Asurmen thing..

Asurmen is definitely the best of the bunch. On paper at least, it's just a shame that his model is so....terrible. I'm honestly considering kitbashing a model to be able to field him.

I've been thinking of a "Hawk Wing" list, to counter the Tau and other gunline meta that I seem to play against locally. The problem is, I want to play Baharroth and a Solitarch, and can't decide on who is going to be warlord. Maybe I should get that resurrection stone for the autarch, and just hide him once it's used.

I'm really looking forward to fielding this list in the coming weeks. Tactically, I find the hawks to be really versatile, and putting baharroth with a squad only improves that by augmenting their weaknesses, in CC and giving them a 2+/4++ that can tank wounds

Definitely sounds like Asurman has the lead. How does he compare overall with Yriel?

 Havok210 wrote:
Definitely sounds like Asurman has the lead. How does he compare overall with Yriel?

No Autarch bonus, but much better in combat. Harder to kill despite one fewer wound (why does a Phoenix Lord have one fewer wound than an ordinary guy? IMO they should be W4 models), and doesn't re-roll 6 for saves.

More expensive by quite a bit, and the Warlord trait is variable depending on what you roll and the rest of your army. He's pretty tanky, but high initiative S5 AP2 attacks in close combat is rather good.

I still prefer Fuegan for flexibility. Karandras is the hardest hitter, though his defence is nothing to Puru about (just his armour save and stealth).

Asurmen has:
* Better stats (S and T most importantly)
* S5 AP2 weapon that can insta-kill anything, even Eternal Warriors
* Better normal save
* Eternal Warrior
* D3 Warlord Traits! (<-- this is what makes Asurmen awesome)

Yriel has 4 wounds, but no eternal warrior and with T3 he'll die a lot faster. He is basically a souped-up Autarch.
Still, Yriel is a lot cheaper. His Eye of Wrath is nice against MEQ though.

Yriel also has, IMO, a gakky weapon. As cool as the whole "cursed" thing is, the weapon isn't good enough to warrant the drawbacks. A Mantletarch would be better.

As for Phoenix Lords, here's how I rate them, split between CC and shooty:

CC
1. Asurmen - beast in challenges, and as stated earlier, can kill anything he can would, regardless of EW. Multiple Traits are huge.

2. Karandras - a beast in general. Can infiltrate into the enemy then assault if you go second. He doens't just assault, either; he punches your soul with 6 S8 AP2 attacks on the charge. If there's anyone who murders you til you die, it's this guy.

3. Jain Zar - Adding a whopping +4" to her run moves each phase helps her and her cohorts move upfield. Put her with a unit of Howling Banshees to make the most of that move or stick her in a hard-ass unit of Wraithblades. They still run +1" which does indeed help. She kills TEQ dead, and unlike Karandras she has 4 AP2 attacks at 12". If you know your meta is TEQ heavy or can plan for your next game against some Terminators, take her.

Shooty:
1. Fuegan - With a unit of Fire dragons, he just adds to the tank killing... BUT that is not where he should be. Honestly, this guy is also a beast in melee, with an Armorbane AP1 weapon that gets better the more wounds he takes (hitting at S7 when he's down to his final wound, making his weapon slightly better than the Avatar's). He has Fast Shot with a Firepike, so not only is any vehicle in 9" dead, but he adds some potent shooting to any unit. Outside of Tau, most units would kill for 2 S8 AP1 shots a turn. This guy eats vehicles for breakfast. But his lunch and dinner are mainly fruit and TEQ.

2. Maugan Ra - A personal favorite, which is why I was so bummed when I realized how mediocre he is. THE shooty guy is gifted with barely more than a Shuriken Cannon and a sniper rifle combined, hardly the Tyranid-slaughtering weapon it should be. If it were AP3, it would be fine, but as it stands the only unit he goes well with is either a unit of Rangers or a Tau Sniper Drone Team, because the drones can also move and shoot. In melee, this guy is S6 at AP3, making his great against MEQ and Tyranid creatures. Which is great, but for the shootiest PL, he leaves much to be desired.

3. Baharroth - I'm not entirely sure why anyone would take him outside of Blind spam. He is good against... other models, I think. He doesn't scatter when with other Swooping Hawks, which is a problem because they aren't really taken in the first place.

Question about Asurmen, because I've also been looking at running him: what is the best unit for him to go with? I want to put him with DAs for fluff, but that seems like a waste to put a cc beast in a shooty unit. Scorpions look appealing too, but then they lose their infiltration. Maybe Harlequins?

 McNinja wrote:

3. Baharroth - I'm not entirely sure why anyone would take him outside of Blind spam. He is good against... other models, I think. He doesn't scatter when with other Swooping Hawks, which is a problem because they aren't really taken in the first place.

Baharroth also has Hit&Run (and can confer it onto other units that way). He's also the only other than Asurmen that has an invulnerable save. Deepstriking into coherency of another unit is a good way to get another hawk grenade blast in. If only he had an AP2 weapon he'd be great. Depending on the amount of terrain not scattering can be very powerful.

 Shandara wrote:

 McNinja wrote:

3. Baharroth - I'm not entirely sure why anyone would take him outside of Blind spam. He is good against... other models, I think. He doesn't scatter when with other Swooping Hawks, which is a problem because they aren't really taken in the first place.

Baharroth also has Hit&Run (and can confer it onto other units that way). He's also the only other than Asurmen that has an invulnerable save. Deepstriking into coherency of another unit is a good way to get another hawk grenade blast in. If only he had an AP2 weapon he'd be great. Depending on the amount of terrain not scattering can be very powerful.

So other than a Grenade blast and hit and run, he really offers nothing. Howling Banshees will at worst hit at the same time as anything I6 or below if they charge through terrain, and many enemy units aren't even in terrain. Baharroth simply isn't worth it if you're just going to have him Deep Strike for a grenade blast.

 McNinja wrote:

 Shandara wrote:

 McNinja wrote:

3. Baharroth - I'm not entirely sure why anyone would take him outside of Blind spam. He is good against... other models, I think. He doesn't scatter when with other Swooping Hawks, which is a problem because they aren't really taken in the first place.

Baharroth also has Hit&Run (and can confer it onto other units that way). He's also the only other than Asurmen that has an invulnerable save. Deepstriking into coherency of another unit is a good way to get another hawk grenade blast in. If only he had an AP2 weapon he'd be great. Depending on the amount of terrain not scattering can be very powerful.

So other than a Grenade blast and hit and run, he really offers nothing. Howling Banshees will at worst hit at the same time as anything I6 or below if they charge through terrain, and many enemy units aren't even in terrain. Baharroth simply isn't worth it if you're just going to have him Deep Strike for a grenade blast.

Being able to put a 2+/4++ body with a bunch of power weapon attacks, hit&run, blind, grenades, haywire anywhere on the table on turn 2. With no risk of scattering, and a fearless cohort has many applications. Hawks and baharroth seem to get a bad rap on the Internet, but in application, they're the most useful unit in the codex.

 MandalorynOranj wrote:
Question about Asurmen, because I've also been looking at running him: what is the best unit for him to go with? I want to put him with DAs for fluff, but that seems like a waste to put a cc beast in a shooty unit. Scorpions look appealing too, but then they lose their infiltration. Maybe Harlequins?

I did run him with avengers with an exarch and he made this unit very solid, tanking hits and making it a fearsome unit to fight. That said, I like the idea of running him with wraith blades with axes. He gives them counter attack allowing them the extra attack on on the first turn regardless while they give him T6. A unit of d-scythe WG would also work

 McNinja wrote:

CC
1. Asurmen - beast in challenges, and as stated earlier, can kill anything he can would, regardless of EW. Multiple Traits are huge.
2. Karandras - a beast in general. Can infiltrate into the enemy then assault if you go second. He doens't just assault, either; he punches your soul with 6 S8 AP2 attacks on the charge. If there's anyone who murders you til you die, it's this guy.
3. Jain Zar - Adding a whopping +4" to her run moves each phase helps her and her cohorts move upfield. Put her with a unit of Howling Banshees to make the most of that move or stick her in a hard-ass unit of Wraithblades. They still run +1" which does indeed help. She kills TEQ dead, and unlike Karandras she has 4 AP2 attacks at 12". If you know your meta is TEQ heavy or can plan for your next game against some Terminators, take her.
Shooty:
1. Fuegan - With a unit of Fire dragons, he just adds to the tank killing... BUT that is not where he should be. Honestly, this guy is also a beast in melee, with an Armorbane AP1 weapon that gets better the more wounds he takes (hitting at S7 when he's down to his final wound, making his weapon slightly better than the Avatar's). He has Fast Shot with a Firepike, so not only is any vehicle in 9" dead, but he adds some potent shooting to any unit. Outside of Tau, most units would kill for 2 S8 AP1 shots a turn. This guy eats vehicles for breakfast. But his lunch and dinner are mainly fruit and TEQ.
2. Maugan Ra - A personal favorite, which is why I was so bummed when I realized how mediocre he is. THE shooty guy is gifted with barely more than a Shuriken Cannon and a sniper rifle combined, hardly the Tyranid-slaughtering weapon it should be. If it were AP3, it would be fine, but as it stands the only unit he goes well with is either a unit of Rangers or a Tau Sniper Drone Team, because the drones can also move and shoot. In melee, this guy is S6 at AP3, making his great against MEQ and Tyranid creatures. Which is great, but for the shootiest PL, he leaves much to be desired.
3. Baharroth - I'm not entirely sure why anyone would take him outside of Blind spam. He is good against... other models, I think. He doesn't scatter when with other Swooping Hawks, which is a problem because they aren't really taken in the first place.

You forgot Drazhar

And Yryllith

 MandalorynOranj wrote:
Question about Asurmen, because I've also been looking at running him: what is the best unit for him to go with? I want to put him with DAs for fluff, but that seems like a waste to put a cc beast in a shooty unit. Scorpions look appealing too, but then they lose their infiltration. Maybe Harlequins?

Asurmen actually works pretty well with his own aspect. I put him with a unit of DA with an Exarch who had Power Sword and Shimmershield. With Bladestorm, you get up close and unload the Catapults to whittle the unit down, then charge and wipe up the rest. Asurmen takes out the Sergeant or IC, and the Exarch is free to swing away with his power weapon.

I thought we had decided in earlier threads that Maugen-Ra could be a nasty beast in squad of Harlequins with a Shadowseer, being hard to even declare as a target while he marches with them and shoots at whatever seperate target he likes?

Did the Harlequins not stay good enough to warrant this tactic?

No, they really didn't stay good enough. The reasons are, 1) The Shadowseer is not guarenteed to cast Veil of Tears. 2) Flyers like Helldrakes and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures make short work of Harlequin squads as they can Vector Strike them to death. 3) For the most part, the Helldrakes flame template will ignore the Veil of Tears because of the average roll the Chaos Space Marine player will get for targetting them. And that flame template will kill a good portion of them easily, even with their 5+ invul save.

Personally, I don't rate Jain Zar as all that great vs most Terminators as she cannot stand 3 wounds from Thunder Hammers at all. Basically the way I have seen all of the players with Terminators take care of her is 1) deny the challenge. 2) survive her initial attacks due to 3+ invul saves. 3) smack her down with Thunder Hammers. She really isn't that survivable against close combat terminators.

Asurmen on the other hand, is a beast!. He can kill ANY character in the game. Even Abbadon pauses when faced with Asurmen. Just be careful of Mindshackle Scarabs on Necrons because you don't want him insta gibbing himself.

In an understand why some of you are defending hawks, they really do get a bad rap, as they are THE go-to blob killers.. But anything baharath can do two squads of 6 hawks or 1 big squad with blinding exarch can do better... For nearly the same price.. Hit and run? Why on earth would you WANT him in CC?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And JZ is best against 2+ armour saves of TEQ (equivalent being the operative word) such as XV88, riptides, sanguinary guard, dreadknights.. SS would absolutely destroy her.. But so far Ive not seen a drama with her inside a harleblol


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Pps.. If I never hear the words M Ra and harlequins in the same sentence again it will be a good life...

Clearly the best Phoenix lord of all time is an Autarch on a jetbike with the Crystal Lance pretending hes drastana. Because even with a tiny stat drop under the Phoenix lord stats that is SUCH a good unit.

otherwise my vote goes to Irrylith. Just to be contrary .

Until you see Karandras charge a unit of paladins that have been misfortuned, with Karandras prescienced, you don't know true pain.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:


Personally, I don't rate Jain Zar as all that great vs most Terminators as she cannot stand 3 wounds from Thunder Hammers at all. Basically the way I have seen all of the players with Terminators take care of her is 1) deny the challenge. 2) survive her initial attacks due to 3+ invul saves. 3) smack her down with Thunder Hammers. She really isn't that survivable against close combat terminators.

Drazhar is the only one who can really kill TH/SS terminators and then only by repositioning himself far away from the unit he is with(wyches with the 4++) so he doesnt take the wounds.

I find Prince Yriel underestimated. (I know he's not a Phoenix Lord, but he has been mentioned here).

- Only 140 points.
- In CC he has capability to execute a squad of Marines
- AP3 weapon. Yes, only S3 but Fleshbane so makes no difference
- 3+/4++
- Pretty useful Warlord trait.
- Plasma Grenades
- Path of Strategy helps you with reserves

I rest my case.

Baharroth is far more useful than 2 units of Hawks.

Baharroth, while not being a beast in combat, is most certainly a game changer.

He can be made the warlord, getting +1 to his run move.

He can then bounce on and off of the battlefield all game long dropping his blast marker on units of lightly armoured troops and ignoring cover.

He can stay away from enemy shooting by deep striking behind line of sight blocking terrain.

He can increase your chance of getting line breaker by deep striking back in exactly where you need him to.

Played right, you can completely deny your enemy the Slay the Warlord point by clever use of his deep strike ability.

If you don't want to use him that way he can join close combat units that you don't want to have stuck in combat all game long to give them Hit and Run and also to chance blinding your opponent when he attacks the unit. This can increase your chance of living through the combat because Blind can reduce the WS of the opponent.

Baharroth can land in tight spaces by himself and blind multiple units if he wishes, then run to relative safety or, if you are lucky, behind LOS blocking terrain. Used in this way, he can disrupt the enemy so badly that their firing line can crumble for a turn.

He's a good disruption unit if you use him right and really think about how to play him.

I've had good luck with Blinding people with the Exarch's sunrifle on my Swooping Hawks, which made me like the idea of Baharroth even more. I've seen a huge jump in the amount of Tau players, and of them I see a lot of Ethereals in the middle of a "wheel" of units around him so they can use his LD. However, their Initiative still sucks. Drop Baharroth right in the thick of things and watch him Blind 5 units. Goodbye, Tau shooting. Which leads to goodbye, Tau. Same would go for a lot of gunline armies. Blind 'em to protect your troops' advance.

As to the question of why would you want him in cc? He's I7, something like 6 attacks on the charge, S4/AP3 sword, 4+ invul save, EW. He's a bit of a MEQ shredder. So while I wouldn't be hunting units to assault with him, I would certainly be jumping him around units that i COULD assault with him if I so choose. If he's by his lonesome, Hit and Run is a great way to keep him safe during the enemy's shooting, then bounce out, shoot, and maybe charge again. If I'm feeling frisky. Who knows?