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I use to have a lot of trouble with making a Green Tide army work. Taking an almost all troop army has almost always ended in disaster, It's clunky, slow, and always seems to be in its own way. After 6th came out, I discovered an interesting thing about taking multiple units of 30 Orks, you can put a few in deep cover, even difficult terrain and just run them (they could even be slugga boyz but I usually only use Shootas). the rest of the 30 will move almost in a line, providing intervening cover for the other units. Because if they shoot the first group, the closest model would gain a cover save (unless they are removed) for the closest models in cover. But if they try to shoot the ones in the back they will give cover because of intervening models (this works both ways as you will give cover to your opponent as well, but most armies have better armor or cover saves and this doesn't provide them with any benefits. Unless you can work it to shoot the front models shoot before the back models run and give them the cover they need.

When this is working, it's almost beautiful as every available space is sucked up in the green tide, moving and switching places, eventually charging into Melee.
Have any Ork players experienced this? It's the only reason I would take the boyz is for their numbers and this is why I have stopped using Trukks or even looted wagons. Doing this I have found it makes the Big Mek KFF useless at the cost of 50pts for the cover save, that doesn't gain the benefit or bonus from models in cover.

Well the KFF mek will ensure up to 4 units will get a cover save no matter where the shots come from. I love that guy, you'll almost always get a cover save except from those tau guys. And the KFF will save enough boys to pay for its points.

If you want a cheaper wall then put 30 grots in the front.

I love the tide armies, Roll, Tide, Roll.

KFF is for vehicles

Drakka77 wrote:
KFF is for vehicles

And infantry (and allied infantry, but not allied vehicles).

The KFF is never truly a waste. There will be times when your Boyz aren't in cover (don't forget that cover could easily slow you down) and you'll need a KFF to keep you alive.

Also, have you considered taking away some Boyz and getting a few toys? Deffkoptas will help you deal with tanks before they become trouble. Dakkajets could help you trim up the threats (Devastators and the likes).

I have found that the 5+ cover KFF (50pts) is less effective than 4+ Terrain or intervening models (0pts) .

Slow you down to what 2" instead of 6" - Have you ever moved 4 (30 model) Ork units through a battlefield with Terrain? Because I have and I'm extremely lucky if they all get their 6". Because I will fire my 3 Big Shootas, they will not get to run.

Big Mek KFF is no match to a Warboss (which will take a Nob unit as a Troop) for nearly the same cost.
For 10 pts more you could have a Big Mek SAG.

If you get toys then you are not doing a Green Tide. Defkoptas seem to be a unit of choice for some, for me they are just a waste of points, a few pop shots at them and the unit will rout. Flooding the Field is the Green Tide method of madness.

Yes there is a green tide method that uses the Boyz Trukks, Big Mek is somewhat useful here, but not much since the Trukks are paper and 2/3 of the shots fired, the vehicle will ramshackle with a KFF around. Partly because all weapons can at least glance a trukk, str 5 or better and you will be rolling multiple dice (taking the lowest) on the ramshackle table. I say feh on trukks.

Give them a Battlewagon, that's a different story, fewer weapons that can hit the front or side and with some hull point damage to save against, the KFF might keep the Battlewagon around for another turn.

Other than just one vehicle and the Def Dread, the KFF is useless. It's certainly useless with a Green Tide Army. It's also useless with a Speed Freak and Zogwort's Weirdos. In fact the only army I would bring a Big Mek KFF is a Dread Mob.


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sirlynchmob wrote:
Well the KFF mek will ensure up to 4 units will get a cover save no matter where the shots come from. I love that guy, you'll almost always get a cover save except from those tau guys. And the KFF will save enough boys to pay for its points.

If you want a cheaper wall then put 30 grots in the front.

I love the tide armies, Roll, Tide, Roll.

With a Big Mek KFF, I have given 11 units the 5+ cover. I have marched a Wall of Orks down a no terrain field and watched them crumble. I have taken only 90 Orks (3 units) without a Big Mek and Flooded them down, not only getting line Breaker, but actually being able to block my opponents movement and took the 3 objectives.Because hiding inside this Tsunami of Orks, was another unit of Thraka and Meganobs. My Boyz, did take 3 Big Shootas, but did not have a Nob. The Chaos Marine player, could not challenge and was overwhelmed. My closest models were in terrain or behind other units and the cover save was actually nice to have. I then realize in all the games that I took the Big Mek KFF, I never thought to use their cover save, I just always rolled the 5+. The one game that I was using the Green Tide and realized that they had a better cover save, it was then that the 115 points I was spending on the Big Mek was worth almost an extra 20 Boyz and even if they were just cannon fodder - that's 18 more shots my opponent would have to take to remove them. Just like taking the Nob Boss, with a PK - that's 5 more boys, plus a Big Shoota - so 3 more shots.

As for Green Tiding with Gretchins, that's a scary thought. Not much of a wall when 9 out of 33 are removed, they have a 50/50 chance to rout. So 1 large blast temple could remove 120 points from your army. I personally would never Green Tide with them, they gain no benefit from being part of an Ork army - they only have a slightly better BS but 12" range str 3 weapon (the only weapon that can't hurt Hull 10) my question is why would you do that to yourself.

Two words: focus fire.

A unit of boyz is literally never completely in cover, so any opponent who knows what he is doing just announces focus fire whenever shooting at orks, just killing the ones outside of cover. Due to large unit sizes, rarely any wounds are wasted. The sole reason for the KFF is to deny focus firing, so you actually get a 5+ cover instead of no cover at all.
Not to mention that 4+ cover is not the norm, though when playing at a GW store, the usually provide little terrain besides ruins. Anything not made out of concrete or rocks will only provide 5+ as well.

The strategy you are suggesting actually isn't that new. The original green tides had a line of gretchin marching in front of them, to force your opponent to waste shots on 3 point models or give you a cover save. However, since casualties are now removed from the closest model to the shooter, your opponent can easily move up to the center of your line and shoot or tank-shock them out of coherency, making the whole strategy fall apart. Another option is charging the flank (or both!) of such a streched-out unit, forcing most of the unit into a conga line of death, as only two or three orks will fight at once.
Another poster hier on dakka tried to mitigate this by moving his orks in crecent-shaped lines, but that proved impractical during actual games, and doesn't fix the charge problem.

Your anecdote is just that, an anecdote.. A kff mek is 85 points, if you spend 115 on him, you're doing it wrong. His job is to bring the KFF, not act like a warboss. You should only ever give your big mek additional wargear if you have spare points after you crammed everything in your list. Besides, how on earth are you getting 9 hits out of a blast. Maybe try spreading out? If you ever lose more than five models to a large blast, you made a playing error.

In total, I think you are just lacking a little experience in playing orks, you are thinking too much like a space marine. Cover saves don't save orks, they force your opponent to spend more shooting on them. You simply don't get your whole army across the board without losses, but we can take a KFF to make at least half it get there. Whenever you make that 5+ roll for the KFF you get a free ork boy. On a mob of 30 you usually get 10 "free" orks. So if you make 15 successful KFF rolls during one game, the KFF already did the same as taking that many boyz.
Also, Gretchin are not for killing anything, they are are tarpit/speedbumps/cheap scoring unit. Charge a unit into a monstrous creature and it will spend the rest of the game killing 3 point gretchins. Sit 10 gretchin on an objective and force your opponent to drop an expensive drop pod onto a 40 point unit. Run a unit of gretchin at an advancing deathstar and watch a 1000 point Draigowing completely annihilating a unit of gretchin. How many points would you spend on making that unit "sit out" one turn?

A "pure" green tide is a powerful list (especially with shootaz), but not something that can beat everything. There are too many things out there which can simply annihilate ork mobz, whether they are 3 or 30 doesn't matter at all. You need some toyz to beat those things, otherwise a blendernaughts, purifiers, manticores, psychers, night scythes or soul grinders will completely ruin your army (just to name a few). I'd suggest adding lootaz and kannons, so you can actually do something about your opponent's threats before turn 3 - plus it still looks like a green tide.

I used to run green tide as well. I have not run them in 6th edition however. But most of what Jidmah said is spot on.

Things green tide will struggle with are dreadnoughts and land raiders. They always gave me fits. There is nothing more frustrating then your nob rolling 3, 3, and 2 on his to hit rolls against a dreadnought and you spend ANOTHER turn locked in combat instead of advancing.

Like Jidmah said, the goal of green tide is to get as many orks across the board as fast as you can. You want them in your opponents face so he has no choice but to deal with them. This is not a finesse army as much as a aim at the red ball and just go kind of army.

The only toys I consider bringing with Green Tide are Lootas to provide covering fire from the rear.

So your answer is no, you haven't used the run the closest models into cover or difficult terrain.
As far as my experience, I play only Orks and try to get in at least 1 game a week. I rarely use green tide, mostly because of the frustrations Green is Best mentioned.
I use Speed Freaks and Dread Mob list mostly. Recently, I've been battling Dark Eldar and brought along my green tide without a KFF and no Nob Boss. My HQ were a Warboss and Big Mek SAG, I used ADL (without a Quadgun) a unit of (1) Big Gunz. and 10 Boyz for rear objectives. This is the same Green Tide List, I used against Chaos Marines only once before and won by a point.
We used Heavy Terrain and I didn't run into any of the problems that Jidmah said. It could be because I was faced against a heavy Wacked DE force, but I easily moved where and how I wanted to. The Warboss and Nob unit did most of the heavy lifting and even though a few times they blasted me without cover, I brought numbers instead of relying on that 5+ cover save.

115 Point Big Mek (KFF, Burna, Cybork) If I'm using Trukks, I would add the Bosspole. Even stripped down to 85, that's still nearly 15 Boyz that can take 13 more shots than the Big Mek KFF

One of the comments I made about the KFF, is that I will forget that the unit might be getting hit with the closest model in cover and just roll the 5+ instead of the 4+. I know that you are so much more experienced than me and would never do such a thing. But if you figure in how many times you have missed that or how many times they got the same 5+ cover, you'll realize that the KFF is simply a waste of points, when your opponent has to wound/remove 20 times before the unit is no longer fearless. If planned right they will run out of shots long before you run out of models. I don't know why you would call that being a space marine - I'd like to see any space marine do what you can do with a Green Tide list.

Relying on tech or using it as a crutch sounds more like a space marine to me.


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Oh Focus Fire, Yeah there's that roll a 6 and pick your target. That's only with characters or snipers and if they are wasting it to remove a Boy or two - I'm fine with that, it's why I brought along a unit of 30. 1 in 6 they wont shoot the closest model and so 1 in 6 they will give a KFF a purpose. That's like saying I wont assault because they have overwatch.

Just a word of advice. I play IG, and I regularly play against a player who plays green tide. You're underestimating the power of the KFF.
The KFF does two things:

1) Mitigates blast damage at no penalty, because the orks still get the cover save, no matter where they are, so it's stupid not to space them out. In any other army, spacing units out may put them out of cover and make them easy targets for my weapons, but not orks.

2)Allows his orkz to be mobile, and generally act reckless and charge down my throat with a massive green tide. this is the point of the army. Once you're in CC, the opponent's firepower is tied up or tarpitted, and they're going to have a bad time.

Also, you're ignoring the fact that some armies use armor, or have resilient gunlines of their own. 15 more boyz shots doesn't do much compared to the resilience a KFF offers. I garentee you that my guardsmen behind an ADL will outlast your 15 boys in a shooting fight. The points are better spent on the KFF to make sure the majority of your boyz make it into close combat. Once that happens, the game is pretty much over for me.

For the record, when I ran Green Tide, I ran it with Mad Dok and Ol' Zogwort. I ran a unit of 'ard boyz up front followed by 3-5 mobs of 30 boys behind it. As mentioned before, backed up by Lootas and Big Gunz (forgot about them).

I routinely was told this list was not internet approved because of Mad Dok's scalpel rule. I was told they would be kited all over the board. However, there was never any room to get behind by ard boyz because there were literally 100+ models.

I was told 'ard boyz were too expensive and a waste of points. However, they were notoriously difficult to kill and aborbed a TON of fire. They usually died in the end, but not until allowing all of my other orks to cross the board untouched and allowing them to do what they do best: KRUMP STUFF.

Zogwort was more of a thing to spice games up.

Again, I have been told how AWFUL this list was, but it won more often than it lost.

If you are making something work without internets approval run with it. Personally, I try to avoid cover because I do not want to be slowed down by it. I just take my casualties and keep moving forward.

You've got the complete wrong idea about focus firing- you described precision shots. With focus fire, any unit can choose only to allocate wounds to models which are completely out of cover.
The KFF stops this.

 Sleg wrote:
Oh Focus Fire, Yeah there's that roll a 6 and pick your target. That's only with characters or snipers and if they are wasting it to remove a Boy or two - I'm fine with that, it's why I brought along a unit of 30. 1 in 6 they wont shoot the closest model and so 1 in 6 they will give a KFF a purpose. That's like saying I wont assault because they have overwatch.

You might want to take a look at the bottom right corner of page 18.

Go ahead and hide your closest 4-5 models in terrain. I'll ignore them and kill the rest.

When the focus fire rule was brought up was that not the fact that you can pick to shoot at the models that are not in cover? Thats how I understand it. Would this pretty much negate the placing the "nearest in cover" stratetegy unless they were all in that cover?

I ask because I am looking to refine my green tide tactics and find the different points of view/strategies here interesting.

Cheers

edit, sorry was slow to post...

Ok Focus Fire, turns 4+ cover into 6+ armor, instead of 5+ all around. So a few of might have to take the Brunt of the attack, but only those that have no cover, if there are wounds left over, they are wasted, Which is just the peak of the wave.

I kept wondering why my opponent usually doesn't use that, then I remembered, they can't shoot the models they don't have LOS, so then they will shoot starting with the closest that they can see, normally it's 4+ cover, once they eliminate them, then they move on to the 5+ cover, then the few that are in front of the unit behind, giving them the intervening model cover. If they ignore cover, they wont focus fire. If they are taking a lot of shots, I can seen taking out the blocking models so they can shoot, with another unit, the Orks hiding behind. But if they are throwing 20 shots at them, do you really think they are going to use Focus Fire?

But you are right KFF is useful here, so giving up 15 more models made it all worthwhile for you. I can totally understand why you are set in your ways and why you don't even want to consider another way of running the Green Tide.

So I will say this, This Tactic is NOT for you. Currently it seems to be working for me and a workable Ork army list, that isn't Nob Bikers is very rare indeed.


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 Green is Best! wrote:
I routinely was told this list was not internet approved because of Mad Dok's scalpel rule. I was told they would be kited all over the board. However, there was never any room to get behind by ard boyz because there were literally 100+ models.

Ok I'm trying to understand this sentence. you are Talking about "One Scalpel Short of a Medpack" (p59 Ork Codex). This is where even if the unit is reduced to 2 (Mad Doc and a Boy) they are still fearless. He must move as fast as possible (this includes his entire unit) to get into Melee. It doesn't mean he will force his way through the 'Ard Boyz, if he is part of the 'Ard Boy squad, they can move and shoot as normal, but if they are 12" or closer to an enemy unit they must charge (taking Overwatch shots). It doesn't say he will run in the shooting phase, in fact it's the opposite, if you run you can't get into melee, so I usually say he will never run (but it doesn't say this either). Is this what you were trying to say?

First off even though it will cost a heck of a lot more, Mad Doc can give every model except Zogwort, Cybork (5+ invulnerability save) thus rendering a Big Mek in a Mob with no vehicles totally useless. But Mad Doc will make both the Big Mek and Warboss Cybork cost 5pts.

 Sleg wrote:


Currently it seems to be working for me and a workable Ork army list, that isn't Nob Bikers is very rare indeed.

I have to disagree with you on the latter part of this. I have never run Nobz on bikes and have done just fine without them.

I've found the best TAC Ork list in 6th to be a mixture of everything. I like a solid 3 blocks of 20 Shoota Boyz with a KFF as my base, then I add both ranged and alpha-strike options, mixing Lootas and Lobbas with Dakkajets, Deffkoptas, and Warbikes (plus either a Nob/Meganob squad or 20 Slugga Boyz in a Battlewagon).

The resulting force is both incredibly versatile and downright deadly if your opponent underestimates Orks.

I have to say that your list is NOT a Green Tide list. But if your eclectic Ork list is working for you, then you must not be playing against any decent opponents or they are taking crazy pills. Obviously, you are not facing too many drop pods, play against Space Wolves, Tyranids, Eldar or Tau, because even a half baked list from these should table you by the 3rd turn. Because a working Ork list only means you wont get tabled, winning usually isn't an option.
Even with Nob Bikers and not against a test army (so I'm not going to count 75% of the games I play), my win ratio is 4 losses to 1 win. which from what every ork player I know says is damn good for 6th edition.
Other than this army list (my new green tide doesn't count because it's being used to test armies). My Dread Mob, War Boss War, and Green Tide do not win at all. That is the reality of playing the Orks, even using IA 8 Dread Mob, 6th Edition has made it impossible to make a competitive army list.

Now, gloat all you want on losing a valuable HQ slot to an 85 point that in most games you could've had use cheaper and better tactics. Brow beat me all you want with how great your Orks are doing and that using the field does nothing to help your Orks. because they are so great because you can roll a 5 or 6 everytime. When I play I don't roll all that great, only 3 times in the many times did my SAG roll 12. Never has Gutsmek's Dakkacannon caused a wound. I've had my ADL and Quadgun taken over 9 times, so hat now I was being shot at by BS 4 with 100 points that I spent.

Warbikes are Great but 1 wounds makes them worth being shot at and caused to rout. Defcoptas can only be taken in units of 5, and killing at least 2 of them is almost laughable because now you have a 50/50 chance of them routing - I guess you beat those odds all the time. Lootas are a great target, but you don't have anything with any speed and punch to make up for losing them

 Sleg wrote:
I have to say that your list is NOT a Green Tide list. But if your eclectic Ork list is working for you, then you must not be playing against any decent opponents or they are taking crazy pills. Obviously, you are not facing too many drop pods, play against Space Wolves, Tyranids, Eldar or Tau, because even a half baked list from these should table you by the 3rd turn. Because a working Ork list only means you wont get tabled, winning usually isn't an option.

Winning is always an option, put some thought into your game. I've battled my way through drop pods (just speeds up a turn of the game by putting us closer together). I'm 2:0 against the local SW player. I have never played Tyranids, but may soon. I've played against the new Eldar, which were incredibly challenging, but once I got the transports down, I could turn the tide. Most of my games of both 5th and 6th have been against Tau.

 Sleg wrote:
Even with Nob Bikers and not against a test army (so I'm not going to count 75% of the games I play), my win ratio is 4 losses to 1 win. which from what every ork player I know says is damn good for 6th edition.
Other than this army list (my new green tide doesn't count because it's being used to test armies). My Dread Mob, War Boss War, and Green Tide do not win at all. That is the reality of playing the Orks, even using IA 8 Dread Mob, 6th Edition has made it impossible to make a competitive army list.

Play to the #1 specialty of Orks: We roll more dice.

Also, if you feel that Orks are a top tournament army, then you're playing the wrong game. Orks are meant to be fun, but also have a strong base from which a tactician can sculpt a masterpiece army. Orks don't rely on unbalanced units to win, they rely on synergy, with every unit fulfilling a role that helps another part of the army accomplish its role.

The Lootas blow up the Rhino so that the Shoota Boyz can mow them down and mop them up in assault. The Looted Wagon's Boomgun thins the horde of Gaunts so that the Slugga Boyz can hop out of a battlewagon and sweep them whilst the Warboss shows the Tervigon who da boss really is.

 Sleg wrote:
Now, gloat all you want on losing a valuable HQ slot to an 85 point that in most games you could've had use cheaper and better tactics. Brow beat me all you want with how great your Orks are doing and that using the field does nothing to help your Orks. because they are so great because you can roll a 5 or 6 everytime. When I play I don't roll all that great, only 3 times in the many times did my SAG roll 12. Never has Gutsmek's Dakkacannon caused a wound. I've had my ADL and Quadgun taken over 9 times, so hat now I was being shot at by BS 4 with 100 points that I spent.

I'll try and decode your statement here.

You shouldn't count on your SAG to roll a 12. You should count on it to be an anti-infantry threat. Rolling a 12 is a nice bonus to such an awesome gun (this bonus is balanced by the setback of rolling a 2).

If you aren't getting wounds, then you aren't picking the right targets. Don't waste S8 on AV14 unless you've got nothing else to shoot. Instead, hit that AV14 with a Power Klaw.

If you're running a Green Tide, why are you taking an ADL? There's your real points waste. Nothing should be sitting back there hiding when you need every boy to move forwards. Leave the anti-air to your Lootas/Kannons/Dakkajets.

I didn't lose an HQ slot. In all of my games I take a KFF Mek and either a Warboss or a SAG in lower games.
You are never going to make every 5+ cover save, but 5+ cover is a LOT better than 6+ armor.

Some math:

 Sleg wrote:

Warbikes are Great but 1 wounds makes them worth being shot at and caused to rout. Defcoptas can only be taken in units of 5, and killing at least 2 of them is almost laughable because now you have a 50/50 chance of them routing - I guess you beat those odds all the time. Lootas are a great target, but you don't have anything with any speed and punch to make up for losing them

Are you just throwing Warbikes into assault? They're overpriced but have wicked guns. Coddle them and maximize your shooting. Warbikes are another case of constant cover saves saving lives.

Why are you taking Deffkoptas in units of 5? Try 2-3 with Rokkits and scout them. They can deliver Biker Warbosses to the enemy, wreck light tanks/infantry (looking at you, devastators), and tie up what you don't want shooting (Crisis Suits, Fire Warriors, Long Fangs). If the enemy is sinking their heavy weapons into bikes or koptas, then they're not shooting your Battlewagons or Trukks.

Where are you putting your Lootas that they're being auto-targetted. Put them in the back where your opponent has to spend their best large blasts to get them. If they're focusing on the rear, then your Boyz up front can do the damage. If they're focusing on the Boyz up front (which will be aided in survival by the KFF), then your Lootas are free to blast away.

I don't have anything with speed to make up for losing them? What about the Deffkoptas, Warbikes, Dakkajet and Battlewagon, which are obviously both fast and pack a punch.

 Sleg wrote:
Ok Focus Fire, turns 4+ cover into 6+ armor, instead of 5+ all around. So a few of might have to take the Brunt of the attack, but only those that have no cover, if there are wounds left over, they are wasted, Which is just the peak of the wave.

Considering that most shooting units cause 4-5 wounds on average, rarely any of those wounds are wasted. If they have a lot more shots than that, they will simply kill your 4+ cover models and then go on killing those without cover saves.

I kept wondering why my opponent usually doesn't use that, then I remembered, they can't shoot the models they don't have LOS, so then they will shoot starting with the closest that they can see, normally it's 4+ cover, once they eliminate them, then they move on to the 5+ cover, then the few that are in front of the unit behind, giving them the intervening model cover. If they ignore cover, they wont focus fire. If they are taking a lot of shots, I can seen taking out the blocking models so they can shoot, with another unit, the Orks hiding behind. But if they are throwing 20 shots at them, do you really think they are going to use Focus Fire?

20 shots fired by one of the most common infantry weapons in the game, the bolter, would result in 13.3 hits and 6.66 wounds. If you allow cover from ruins, that's 3.33 wounds taken. As long as at least four orks are in plain sight, focus fire is better. Most likely your opponent never thought about this. All my opponents are highly competitive players, they never pass up a chance like this.

But you are right KFF is useful here, so giving up 15 more models made it all worthwhile for you. I can totally understand why you are set in your ways and why you don't even want to consider another way of running the Green Tide.

Listen, if you don't like other people opinions, don't post on forums, places for discussion per definition. I have shown you the value of a KFF and it's pretty easy to mathhammer when it starts being better than 15 boyz. Just field a KFF and take note whenever it causes a successful safe. If you come up with numbers greater than 15, the KFF was better. If you don't, drop the KFF. I've done this a couple of games in 6th and it came it usually added up to a lot more than 15.

So I will say this, This Tactic is NOT for you. Currently it seems to be working for me and a workable Ork army list, that isn't Nob Bikers is very rare indeed.

"It works for me against my opponents" is nice. Still not advice you should be handing out unless a new ork player is joining your gaming group. Half the time I am playing, I walk into a GW store, ask the manager if someone is waiting to play and then play a person I never met before and sometimes never play again. "My" strategies tend to work quite well against those opponents, if I'm playing a competitive army, I'm winning or at least drawing those game a lot more often than not. Even if your strategy works well for you, that doesn't mean it couldn't better. If you are not facing anti-horde units and you can simply drown your opponent in troops, all the power to you. However, don't be surprised if get you green but handed if one of your chaps bought a new model or an allied detachment which can actually handle such a one-dimensional army.
Always remember, you are supposed to have fun playing the game, but from what I can tell - despite what half the world claims - every single player is having fun when winning. This is a tactics forum, and meant to help people win the game. No single unit in the entire WH40k ruleset is invincible and can tackle everything thrown at them, not paldins, not nob bikerz, not boyz. If you build an army out of single kind of unit, no matter how awesome that unit is, it will have a massive weakness. For boyz it's close combat experts with large amount of attacks (striking scorpions, khorne berzerkers), large blasts, templates, fliers and dedicated. I'm telling you, that you will be winning more games if you bring stuff to mitigate those weaknesses. If you insist that you are already winning enough games, we have nothing to talk about.

First off even though it will cost a heck of a lot more, Mad Doc can give every model except Zogwort, Cybork (5+ invulnerability save) thus rendering a Big Mek in a Mob with no vehicles totally useless. But Mad Doc will make both the Big Mek and Warboss Cybork cost 5pts.

Grotznik can only cybork non-unique non-vehicle units, and it's not free, but rather costs 5 points per model. So on your boyz mob you are paying 150 points just to cybork them, about twice as much as getting a big mek with KFF, who can protect multiple mobs at once.

The problem about Grotznik is that he may become a liability in certain situations. He is not a terrible model, but more on par with the SAG or tankbustaz - just slightly worse than the choices he is competing with.

 Sleg wrote:
I have to say that your list is NOT a Green Tide list. But if your eclectic Ork list is working for you, then you must not be playing against any decent opponents or they are taking crazy pills. Obviously, you are not facing too many drop pods, play against Space Wolves, Tyranids, Eldar or Tau, because even a half baked list from these should table you by the 3rd turn. Because a working Ork list only means you wont get tabled, winning usually isn't an option.

Even with Nob Bikers and not against a test army (so I'm not going to count 75% of the games I play), my win ratio is 4 losses to 1 win. which from what every ork player I know says is damn good for 6th edition.
Other than this army list (my new green tide doesn't count because it's being used to test armies). My Dread Mob, War Boss War, and Green Tide do not win at all. That is the reality of playing the Orks, even using IA 8 Dread Mob, 6th Edition has made it impossible to make a competitive army list.

Huh? If you are getting tabled by third turn and have such a huge loss ratio, maybe you aren't a decent player? Ever thought about that? Since 6th my win ratio has gone up, not down.

While his list is probably not perfect, it's lot better than going boyz all the way. It's wasting points on the battlewagon and bikers, but outside of that it bring the most important feat: having answers to everything.

Now, gloat all you want on losing a valuable HQ slot to an 85 point that in most games you could've had use cheaper and better tactics. Brow beat me all you want with how great your Orks are doing and that using the field does nothing to help your Orks. because they are so great because you can roll a 5 or 6 everytime. When I play I don't roll all that great, only 3 times in the many times did my SAG roll 12. Never has Gutsmek's Dakkacannon caused a wound. I've had my ADL and Quadgun taken over 9 times, so hat now I was being shot at by BS 4 with 100 points that I spent.

Hey, my SAG has never rolled 12 a single time so far. It still killed more than ten thousand points worth of terminators, space marines and eldar in its games. It's a freakin' 60" AP2 large blast, screw the mishap table.

Warbikes are Great but 1 wounds makes them worth being shot at and caused to rout.

Agree, ignore cover stuff also kills them by the droves.

Defcoptas can only be taken in units of 5, and killing at least 2 of them is almost laughable because now you have a 50/50 chance of them routing - I guess you beat those odds all the time. Lootas are a great target, but you don't have anything with any speed and punch to make up for losing them

They can also be taken in units of one, ignoring the leadership value completely and forcing your opponent to overcommit to stop a single model. Outside of that 2W T5 models with 5+ cover save aren't as easy to remove as you make the out to be.
Also a quick help on statistics: The average chance of rolling 7 or lower is about 60%, so yeah, you're unlucky.

Also everything Dr. What said, besides one thing: Orks are not a tournament army right now because we are lacking the tools to handle some popular strategies (read: fliers). When the new codex drops I fully expect orks to be back in tournament business like they were in 5th. Both kan wall and battlewagons were awesome armies at their respective point levels.

all I can say is you got to be kidding. you are either lying, not playing against people who understand their army list, or cheating. Because if you play Orks and have never been tabled then you are NOT playing Orks.

If your game has improved and you are using units such as Defkoptas, Trukks, or any unit that doesn't roll more dice - there is something seriously wrong with not having plenty of units with Big Shootas, Defgun, and Dakkaguns. You should play games where you don't go first, Drop Pods and Mysetic Spores should rip apart your gunline. I would never take a slugga unit or a grot unit that isn't just hidig behind a wall. Battlewagon usually don't make use of the Def Rolla or even any weapons you might attach, Normally they are just in the way. Green Tide players, if you never bottlenecked your unit, or forced them to travel through difficult terrain and just watched them tear through them, then you do not have a green tide list. A workable force list is one that doesn't get tabled against a real competitive force.

When 6th edition came out, the UK did a 3 day event, close to 40 Ork players entered. No one placed in the top 10. In the USA, with the exception of most of the Ork players switching to a different army, Orks placed dead last, right behind Dark Eldar.

The average roll on a 7 is less than 60% and if you a normally saving, then you are again cheating and it has nothing to do with Luck.

The Ork codex is extremely outdated and the people you are playing against must be a lot nicer than my group, because they are letting you win.

 Sleg wrote:
all I can say is you got to be kidding. you are either lying, not playing against people who understand their army list, or cheating. Because if you play Orks and have never been tabled then you are NOT playing Orks.

I don't think my green tide has ever been tabled. Granted, I have been beaten down to a point where I conceded defeat, but there are always models on the table.

This speaks nothing of my tactical prowess, this is simple math that they cannot roll enough dice to kill all my orks off.

So you're basically saying that you're the pinnacle of ork gaming and anyone better than you is "either lying, not playing against people who understand their army list, or cheating."

Nothing left to do here *lauches rokkit pack into a Valkyrie's engine*

I'm not gonna lie, orks right now are in a bad spot. Green tide especially so.

The meta has shifted from utilizing AP3 or better weapons with fewer shots (plasma) to using lots of shots that just rely upon failed armored saves.

This is rough on orks, who can be evaporated by such fire.

Orks still have some good tools, like mega nobs, looats and battlewagons. The best way to play orks today is to utilize those tools and focus less on the green tide as your source of victory.

 labmouse42 wrote:
I'm not gonna lie, orks right now are in a bad spot. Green tide especially so.

The meta has shifted from utilizing AP3 or better weapons with fewer shots (plasma) to using lots of shots that just rely upon failed armored saves.

I never thought of it from this perspective. I haven't really run orks in 6th, so I never factored this in. Back in 5th, I used to giggle and laugh when people shot meltas and lascannons into my 6 point orks. But, with the changing of the game, volume of fire has gone up significantly. This would definitely not help out by poor ork boyz.

Even still, at 2000 points, I usually had about 120-150 boyz alone. That is still a TON of orks to kill off. Its just so time consuming and boring for the first few turns that I just don't enjoy playing that style anymore.

With that being said, if I was going to run green tide again, I would get some large bases and model 3 orks per base. I would keep them in the middle for ease of movement. By the time this ever becomes an issue, you should have plenty of dead orks to use in order to swap out. This would make your movement phase go so much smoother while still keeping you relatively spaced out.

warbikes have 2 wounds fyi

If you're playing orks and have never been tabled, you brought enough boys for the Tide! At 1500 points I'm over 100 models. 114 to be exact.

Deff koptas work best at 1-4 models. That way even if you fail a morale and run, you can still recover at full LD, and 7 is way better than 2.

bikers are not part of a tide army, to many points for to few models. you can easily put 500 points into 10 models where each loss hurts.

the tournament army is questionable, and really depends on your area. if you have lots of tau players, just stay home. I avoid timed events because I'm a slow player to start with. But I will go for "league" type tournaments. Same thing as a 1 day tourny, just spread out over 6 weeks and I can take 3 hours to finish my game

We might have the oldest codex, but we still put up a great fight. WAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGHHH!!!

For my Green Tide army, I don't take Bikes or Defcoptas, because 1 is worth almost 5 Ork Boyz.
My Original Green Tide, had Nobs and PK - I found that I would rather have 5 more boyz. It even sported the KFF, That list has been tabled and didn't have the needed punch a Warboss brings, the new list actually pulled out a win and having the front unit get into Melee is awesome. I know it would be better if they were sluggas, but if a unit is partially caught in difficult terrain, they need to be the shooting unit, while another unit makes its way to the front instead - SO I still take only Shootas.

Why would I put a unit in melee with a unit they can't harm and they will lose numbers every turn? 4 reasons.1. They tie up their powerful units. 2. They give intervening cover to units behind. 3, If my warboss and Nob unit is within 2" they will attack and not be overwatched, or (4) attacked because they aren't the closest model. This is an evil maneuver and so far it's working very well. I pull points from everywhere, especially my gunline, for example if It was a choice between taking the ADL or filling out a unit of Ork Boyz, I would fill out the Ork Boyz, taking out toys such as Dakkajets, Battlewagons, or Defkoptas - I go with numbers numbers numbers.

I would consider conceding as being tabled, because unless it's a tounie, it doesn't matter. During a Tournie, your opponent will gain all points (except First Blood) possible. You can only have the few points you earned (But conceding during a Tournie used to mean you resigned from the entire Tournie, so points no longer matter).

I only concede games when, it's obvious that I have already lost and it's late and I have to get up early the next morning for work. I have walked away from tables, when I do not agree with the house rules people play with.

I know it doesn't seem like it, but time is important when I field a Green Tide list. I usually start pre-deploying my boyz, even if I do not go first. I've gotten pretty good as fast moving them once I have an idea how far 6" is - but it still takes time. most times I bring a buddy to roll dice, while I start moving units during my opponents assault phase.

I would never say Orks can't put up a fight and even as old as their codex is they are by far the most fun to play. Don't forget Orks are the only figures that are always smiling. I just have to put a stop to "my ork list always wins" - uh no it doesn't and because Orks have a diverse list, the more eclectic you create the list, the less likely you are going to see any effectiveness out of them. Like I said before, when I had the KFF, I didn't even consider these things, even without trying you are giving up probably better cover rolls because that 5+ becomes so important. For ork players this is a tactic that should never be overlooked, for me I had to take it out to actually see it in action. But if you think they will implement Focus Fire, they will do that anyway, and if more figures would get 5+ cover, then it would be worth it for your opponent to focus fire, when you have multiple cover saves, they can only focus on the ones without (you'll probably still get your 6+ armor) but if they throw a lot of shots, they can only hit those models, yeah 20 shots just took out 3 orkboyz (which could still survive but it's the max number of figures they can shoot, instead of the 10 5+ saves you need to make, which means on average 6 are gone.


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Maybe the problem is lack of understand what a Green Tide is. Here's my 1500, 160 Ork Tidal Wave, which is almost twice as large as my Original 83 model Tide.
HQ
110 Warboss (Cybork, PK, Attack Squig)
123 Big Mek (SAG, Burna, Ammo Runt, Bosspole)

Troop
300 10 Nobs (Painboy, 10 Cybork, Orderly, Waaagh Banner!, Bosspole)
4x195 30 Ork Boyz (Shootas, 3 Big Shootas)
135 20 Ork Boyz (Nob, Shootas, 2 Big Shootas)

Heavy Support
47 Big Gunz (Kannon, 3 Ammo Runt, 6 Extra Crew)

I play a Ork green tide but I spend points on thrakka, burnas, trukks to carry boys, and looted wagons w skorchas to carry earlier burnas. I find they are very competive, I don't always win but I have a decent ratio, plus a KFF Mek makes my transports survive long enough to get within 18 in by turn two. I have tabled my opponents with the quick tide. Or obliterated when they take out trukks.

 Jidmah wrote:
So you're basically saying that you're the pinnacle of ork gaming and anyone better than you is "either lying, not playing against people who understand their army list, or cheating."

No I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that I have use a Tactic that seems to be working amazing and I wanted to share it. I was wondering if other Ork players have tried this. I wasn't expected resistance to such an extent that player will put forth that Ork wins equals better players. The Truth is I consider myself very experienced with playing Orks, I have played Orks since Warhammer's creation. I was one of the original American play testers of this game. I have only played Orks. I have probably lost more games than most people on here have played. As far as people better than me - I no longer enter Tournaments and I know of probably 100 players that are "better" than me and they lose more than they win and aren't all Ork players.
When you think about just players in a Tournament, almost all of them will have to lose at least once. So presenting that if winning equals experienced player. I will always say no way, if you play a list all the time that has never lost (especially Orks) then there has to be a reason for it, you know the answer. But I will say, this tactic of using your battlefield as an advantage instead of a hindrance because you are relying on your KFF too much - will not win the game, but it might change your thinking on how to run a Green Tide List - which by what you've said you do not do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Drakka77 wrote:
I play a Ork green tide but I spend points on thrakka, burnas, trukks to carry boys, and looted wagons w skorchas to carry earlier burnas. I find they are very competive, I don't always win but I have a decent ratio, plus a KFF Mek makes my transports survive long enough to get within 18 in by turn two. I have tabled my opponents with the quick tide. Or obliterated when they take out trukks.

Yeah, I have tried Trukks and Looted Wagons a bunch and for me it always ends in disaster. It's been so bad that once I had to roll 8 dice on single ramshackle. It was almost funny when I rolled 5 ones. Giving up First Blood and my 6 Boyz that were left,you got fleed. KFF for vehicles, I will never argue against. Putting Thraka with Nobs makes them slow and purposeful and Thraka will never benefit from the Feel No Pain. He is much better with 9 Meganobs and a Battlewagon with a defrolla.
The Looted Wagon is only slightly better than a Trukk and 'Don't Press Dat" makes it an expensive mistake for me. You can put the same weapons on a Battlewagon and with a 14 Front and 12 side, it puts the Looted wagon to shame.
I love Burnas, but in the Looted Wagon, they are just asking to be removed and your opponent should relieve you of them and the looted wagon, before they will be able to cause any trouble.
Last, this is a great Ork List, but it doesn't seem like a geen tide. I adore Thraka, but he is taking away from your actual tide. If you don't mind me asking, how many figures are you tiding with here?

In a 2000 pt army I have 5 groups of 11 boys lead by a nob, 3 groups of 5 burnas led by a Mek, and Thrakka leading a Nob squad of about 10. Plus a big Mek with a KFF. ( I don't have any other units that are orks besides this except for a few more boys) All nobs have a PK and all groups are in a transport. Using line of sight I stay out of it till round two rush twelve inches then off load six inches the waaagh the garenteed 12 more inches.

I hope the tide works!!!! I'm taking it to a tourney. W Lootas and Dakka jet.