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Would not be the first time Game Workshop put forth a rule that didn't function, at least from the 'as written' point of view. That is why it is only a thought exercise, as it is clear they did not intend for infiltrators to lose the ability to be put into reserve. Either because they can choose to refrain from infiltrating at the very beginning, or that they still have the choice to go into reserves when the infiltration deployment occurs. Anyone who tries to enforce the 'must infiltrate' part of the rule needs to come up with a very good argument as to why infiltration also grants the ability to outflank, something that can only be done from reserve.

On relation with the Shadowsun/Farsight unit in reserve we have one of two outcomes:
Either the event is a simultaneous one with both IC's joining at the same time or Shadowsun is forced to join after Farsight because he is put into reserve during the infiltration stage. In either case Shadowsun can be announced to be joining second, creating a clear order of events that does not violate the rules. So if you really want to have Shadowrun in your bomb, and I can see why it would be decent inclusion, there is nothing preventing you from doing so. As long as you are deep striking them into position of course, which is the whole point as Farsight doesn't scatter.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
It also says infiltrate confers outflank. If they MUST infiltrate how the hell do they outflank using the same rule to be allowed to outflank?

The simple answer being that they must infiltrate unless they go into reserve...

Nothing says they have to infiltrate,...

Yes it does. The Infiltrate rule says they have to infiltrate.

If they are going into reserve, they are not infiltrating. Yet you said theyhave to infiltrate.

Again, rules are illegal by default if the have to infiltrate. Outflank is not in infiltrate, it just says it also confers outflank

 Vineheart01 wrote:
If they are going into reserve, they are not infiltrating. Yet you said theyhave to infiltrate.

Indeed I did. To be more precise, I should have said that they unit has no choice about whether or not to use the Infiltrate rule.

This forces them to deploy last, after both sides have deployed their armies. Units are placed into reserve instead of deploying. Having no choice about whether or not to deploy at the 'deploy infiltrators' step in the setup process doesn't change whether or not the unit can be placed in reserve instead of deploying.

Infiltrators can be placed into reserves, at the same time you declare your reserves. There is nothing that stops you from declaring units with the infiltrate rule as reserves thus removing their deploy last clause. They are still infiltrators when placed in reserves as they have the option to outflank.

Now, is there an order of events and joining of ICs which allows you to circumvent the Infiltrate clause about ICs, ie allowing Shadowsun to join after Farsight does. If there is an order of events Shadowsun can be joined to the unit after Farsight, but if it is done simultaneously then they are mutually exclusive and Shadowsun cannot be joined to the unit alongside Farsight. I believe the declaration is done simultaneously and it violates the Infiltrate clause for Shadowsun and Farsight to be joined to the same unit in reserves even if they are deepstriking and not taking advantage of Infiltrate.

Is there support for an order of events? At best is ambiguous and we need FAQ clarification. Currently it is not RAW legal for Shadowsun to join Farsight and his bodyguards in reserves.

Page 9 has some interesting things to say about simultaneous events.

Zagman wrote:
Infiltrators can be placed into reserves, at the same time you declare your reserves.

This is based on what?

Because the infiltrate rule actually says that they are deployed after both sides have deployed everything else, and putting units into reserve happens instead of deploying them. So you have no permission to put infiltrators into reserve until after the remainder of both armies are deployed.

 insaniak wrote:

Zagman wrote:
Infiltrators can be placed into reserves, at the same time you declare your reserves.

This is based on what?

Because the infiltrate rule actually says that they are deployed after both sides have deployed everything else, and putting units into reserve happens instead of deploying them. So you have no permission to put infiltrators into reserve until after the remainder of both armies are deployed.

So basically you place the bomb and Farsight in DS during their normal deployment, and then during infiltrator deployment Shadowsun goes into DS and joins the unit.
Seems nosferatu was onto something as usual.

Zagman wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Join Farsight, THEN join shadowsun. Done.

But now you are creating an order of events where none exists to circumvent a rule. At the least Farsight Bomb is no rules legal and requires an FAQ, preferrably in the BRB about infiltrators, reserves, etc.



As I read the reserve rules, you choose to reserves infiltrators during normal deployment when you declare reserves.

OK then - the events are simultaneous, and I choose the order
OR
They are simultaneous, SSun has yet to grant the Bodyguard Infiltrate as she hasnt joined "yet", along with Farsight. They join together

Both are legal Still no issue with placing them in reserves for DS

Ok page 124 under Preparing Reserves states, "When deploying their armies players can chose NOT TO DEPLOY up to half of their units(rounding up) keeping them as Reserves to arrive later."

The rules for arriving from reserves does not use the word Deploy anywhere and instead use the words arrive and move on to table.

Therefore the completely stupid argument about infiltrators being required to deploy is vetoed by the first line quoted under preparing reserves as it clearly states half your units do not have to deploy, and the argument about Farsight not joining the unit is proved wrong because the squad is never actually "deployed" (If you want to play word games I can play them too) and he joined them after he was placed in reserve as the rules continued on page 124 read "During deployment, when declaring which units are kept as Reserves, the player must clearly explain the organization of his Reserves to the opponent. (paragraph break) First, he must specify to the opponent if any of his ICs left in reserve are joining a unit (meaning the bodyguard, SS, and FS were all placed individually in reserve before they could be "deployed" and joined while in reserves), in which case they will arrive together."

On a more personal note, I don't think SS and FS should be allowed in the same army for fluff purposes. I could care less about the cheesy 2+ cover save bomb as I will never use it myself even though I play Tau.

So, can it be used? Yes. Should it be used? No, but flyer spam is cheesy too.

Noc

Nocturus wrote:

Therefore the completely stupid argument about infiltrators being required to deploy is vetoed by the first line quoted under preparing reserves as it clearly states half your units do not have to deploy,...

You appear to have misunderstood the argument.

The issue isn't that infiltrators are forced to deploy (they aren't, they can choose to go into reserves instead of deploying just like everyone else). The issue is just one of timing (infiltrators appear to be required to do it last).

 insaniak wrote:

Nocturus wrote:

Therefore the completely stupid argument about infiltrators being required to deploy is vetoed by the first line quoted under preparing reserves as it clearly states half your units do not have to deploy,...

You appear to have misunderstood the argument.

The issue isn't that infiltrators are forced to deploy (they aren't, they can choose to go into reserves instead of deploying just like everyone else). The issue is just one of timing (infiltrators appear to be required to do it last).

Okay, I did misunderstand that. It still seems asinine to make that distinction though as it merely slows down the game.

Discussing the rules of the game is what the forum is for.

And the more people discuss these sorts of issues, the more chance there is of GW doing something about them.

 insaniak wrote:
Discussing the rules of the game is what the forum is for.

And the more people discuss these sorts of issues, the more chance there is of GW doing something about them.

You are correct of course, and we can hope GW is listening.

Nocturus wrote:
Ok page 124 under Preparing Reserves states, "When deploying their armies players can chose NOT TO DEPLOY up to half of their units(rounding up) keeping them as Reserves to arrive later."

The rules for arriving from reserves does not use the word Deploy anywhere and instead use the words arrive and move on to table.

Therefore the completely stupid argument about infiltrators being required to deploy is vetoed by the first line quoted under preparing reserves as it clearly states half your units do not have to deploy, and the argument about Farsight not joining the unit is proved wrong because the squad is never actually "deployed" (If you want to play word games I can play them too) and he joined them after he was placed in reserve as the rules continued on page 124 read "During deployment, when declaring which units are kept as Reserves, the player must clearly explain the organization of his Reserves to the opponent. (paragraph break) First, he must specify to the opponent if any of his ICs left in reserve are joining a unit (meaning the bodyguard, SS, and FS were all placed individually in reserve before they could be "deployed" and joined while in reserves), in which case they will arrive together."

On a more personal note, I don't think SS and FS should be allowed in the same army for fluff purposes. I could care less about the cheesy 2+ cover save bomb as I will never use it myself even though I play Tau.

So, can it be used? Yes. Should it be used? No, but flyer spam is cheesy too.

Noc

Calling other arguments stupid is in bad taste, please raise you maturity level and act like an adult.

Please reread pg 124, Arriving from Reserves, 5th paragraph, I see multiple instances and uses of deploys.

Also, Infiltrate states join during deployment and declared to have joined in reserves is still part of deployment.

You play word games good.

Nothing seems to allow you to choose the order of joining ICs, one combination or order Shadowsun then Farsight is clearly against the rules, reversing the order allows you to bypass said rule. What gives the player the right to subvert Infiltrate by creating an order of operations?

then dont. join them simultaneously, then there is no conflict

Every rules debate I've read seems to take it for granted that models and units with the Infiltrate rule have no choice as to whether they infiltrate or not, but the paragraph 'Deploying Infiltrators and Redeploying Scouts' on pg. 121 seems to strongly suggest that the intention is indeed for them to have that choice.

I'm certainly no rules expert, but could someone comment on that please?

Dagormundo wrote:
Every rules debate I've read seems to take it for granted that models and units with the Infiltrate rule have no choice as to whether they infiltrate or not, but the paragraph 'Deploying Infiltrators and Redeploying Scouts' on pg. 121 seems to strongly suggest that the intention is indeed for them to have that choice.

I'm certainly no rules expert, but could someone comment on that please?

The limitation is under the Infiltrate USR.

Keep in mind that functionally, the requirement of infiltration doesn't matter that much, except the stipulation that infiltrators go last - you can always 'infiltrate' as normal into your own deployment zone, and attach units and ICs as normal in that manner.

It only matters when various shenanigans are tried.

Gwyidion wrote:
Keep in mind that functionally, the requirement of infiltration doesn't matter that much, except the stipulation that infiltrators go last - you can always 'infiltrate' as normal into your own deployment zone, and attach units and ICs as normal in that manner.

It only matters when various shenanigans are tried.

I'm not so sure you would be able to join them at deployment, as ICs without Infiltrate cannot join Infiltrators during deployment. So if you go second, they would still be two separate units.

Dagormundo wrote:Every rules debate I've read seems to take it for granted that models and units with the Infiltrate rule have no choice as to whether they infiltrate or not, but the paragraph 'Deploying Infiltrators and Redeploying Scouts' on pg. 121 seems to strongly suggest that the intention is indeed for them to have that choice.

I'm certainly no rules expert, but could someone comment on that please?

That was already discussed.

We simply have no way of knowing which is correct until GW decide to address it. So for the moment, the 'safest' option is to assume the restriction is intentional, as that is the route that breaks no rule.

As I said earlier in the thread, I believe that infiltrators are intended to have the choice to use the rule or to deploy normally... but that's just a guess, based on previous editions and on the Setup rules. It could just as easily be that the Setup rules are in error, and GW fully intended for Infiltrators to always deploy last, and just didn't anticipate this causing issues... presumably because they all have collective amnesia and completely forgot about the problems with Shrike last edition.

 insaniak wrote:

Dagormundo wrote:Every rules debate I've read seems to take it for granted that models and units with the Infiltrate rule have no choice as to whether they infiltrate or not, but the paragraph 'Deploying Infiltrators and Redeploying Scouts' on pg. 121 seems to strongly suggest that the intention is indeed for them to have that choice.

I'm certainly no rules expert, but could someone comment on that please?

That was already discussed.

We simply have no way of knowing which is correct until GW decide to address it. So for the moment, the 'safest' option is to assume the restriction is intentional, as that is the route that breaks no rule.

As I said earlier in the thread, I believe that infiltrators are intended to have the choice to use the rule or to deploy normally... but that's just a guess, based on previous editions and on the Setup rules. It could just as easily be that the Setup rules are in error, and GW fully intended for Infiltrators to always deploy last, and just didn't anticipate this causing issues... presumably because they all have collective amnesia and completely forgot about the problems with Shrike last edition.

Giving infiltrators the choice would certainly clear this issue up.

I just don't like the order of operation to give an ability(even if it isn't used) to an IC where it is explicitly forbidden from gaining. Even in reserves when Shadowsun and Farsight are joined to the Bodyguards they have the choice to outflank. Too much grey area and selective amnesia.

Perhaps a different understanding of what counts as "Infiltrators" would help clear this up.

On page 121 under Deploying Infiltrators and Redeploying Scouts it says "First, both players deploy their forces (apart from any units left kept as reserves or that choose to use their Infiltrate special rule). When both players have deployed their main force, then they deploy their infiltrators (as described on page 38)."

This suggests the following order to me:
1) First player starts deploying his army, deciding that he wishes to deploy a unit which has the Infiltrate USR later according to that special rule. (This choice is given to him, not on page 38, but on page 121: "or that choose to use their infiltrate special rule.") He deploys all "normal" units.
2) The models in the unit are now considered "Infiltrators" since they were not deployed normally and are intended to be deployed according to the Infiltrate special rule.
3) Now that these are "Infiltrators" an independent character without the infiltrate special rule may not join them.
4) The prohibition on joining applies to the entire deployment section (page 38 "cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment")

For the Farsight+Shadowsun bomb, this would appear to preclude deployment as infiltrators (that is, deploying according to the special conditions and rules on page 38), but not from arriving out of reserves by deep strike. Regardless of the order in which the characters are joined, unless the controlling player opts to deploy the unit according to the Infiltrate USR, they never become "Infiltrators." The sequence would go something like this:

1) Tau player deploys his Fire Warriors, Broadsides, etc. He decides he would like to keep his Farsight, Shadowsun, and bodyguard in reserves.
2) If Shadowsun joins first, she confers the Infiltrate USR to the bodyguard, but the unit is not a unit of "infiltrators" as they will not be setting up according to the method described on page 38. Farsight is still free to join a unit which has the Infiltrate USR so long as they are not Infiltrators according to page 121.
3) Per page 124 the Tau player clearly describes the organization of his reserves and per page 36 informs his opponent that their method of arrival will be Deep Strike.

This is reading a lot into the difference between "units with Infiltrate" and "Infiltrators." But there does appear to be a distinction and there certainly is evidence in the rulebook that deployment via the infiltrate USR is supposed to be an option for the controlling player rather than a requirement (page 121).

The main problem I can see with my interpretation is the conferring of Outflank. Page 38 says Outflank is conferred to "units of Infiltrators kept as reserves." The only way around this would be to say that deciding the unit will outflank is part of their "choos[ing] to use their infiltrate special rule" mentioned on page 121.

 insaniak wrote:

Zagman wrote:
Infiltrators can be placed into reserves, at the same time you declare your reserves.

This is based on what?

Because the infiltrate rule actually says that they are deployed after both sides have deployed everything else, and putting units into reserve happens instead of deploying them. So you have no permission to put infiltrators into reserve until after the remainder of both armies are deployed.

well wouldnt it in that case mean shadowsun would be "deployed" in reserves after all others are put into reserves meaning she could join the BG squad?

EDIT TL;DR jumped the gun question asked but not answered lol

 Aspartame wrote:
Perhaps a different understanding of what counts as "Infiltrators" would help clear this up.

On page 121 under Deploying Infiltrators and Redeploying Scouts it says "First, both players deploy their forces (apart from any units left kept as reserves or that choose to use their Infiltrate special rule). When both players have deployed their main force, then they deploy their infiltrators (as described on page 38)."

This suggests the following order to me:
1) First player starts deploying his army, deciding that he wishes to deploy a unit which has the Infiltrate USR later according to that special rule. (This choice is given to him, not on page 38, but on page 121: "or that choose to use their infiltrate special rule.") He deploys all "normal" units.
2) The models in the unit are now considered "Infiltrators" since they were not deployed normally and are intended to be deployed according to the Infiltrate special rule.
3) Now that these are "Infiltrators" an independent character without the infiltrate special rule may not join them.
4) The prohibition on joining applies to the entire deployment section (page 38 "cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment")

For the Farsight+Shadowsun bomb, this would appear to preclude deployment as infiltrators (that is, deploying according to the special conditions and rules on page 38), but not from arriving out of reserves by deep strike. Regardless of the order in which the characters are joined, unless the controlling player opts to deploy the unit according to the Infiltrate USR, they never become "Infiltrators." The sequence would go something like this:

1) Tau player deploys his Fire Warriors, Broadsides, etc. He decides he would like to keep his Farsight, Shadowsun, and bodyguard in reserves.
2) If Shadowsun joins first, she confers the Infiltrate USR to the bodyguard, but the unit is not a unit of "infiltrators" as they will not be setting up according to the method described on page 38. Farsight is still free to join a unit which has the Infiltrate USR so long as they are not Infiltrators according to page 121.
3) Per page 124 the Tau player clearly describes the organization of his reserves and per page 36 informs his opponent that their method of arrival will be Deep Strike.

This is reading a lot into the difference between "units with Infiltrate" and "Infiltrators." But there does appear to be a distinction and there certainly is evidence in the rulebook that deployment via the infiltrate USR is supposed to be an option for the controlling player rather than a requirement (page 121).

The main problem I can see with my interpretation is the conferring of Outflank. Page 38 says Outflank is conferred to "units of Infiltrators kept as reserves." The only way around this would be to say that deciding the unit will outflank is part of their "choos[ing] to use their infiltrate special rule" mentioned on page 121.

Joining Shadowsun to the Bodyguards in reserve does indeed make them infiltrators, because at that point in time they have the ability to choose Outflank as an arrival option. Choosing not to use that rule does not make them infiltrators.

That quote would indeed elude to choice, but "Infiltrators" needs to be defined for us along with that choice RAW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kezwick wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

Zagman wrote:
Infiltrators can be placed into reserves, at the same time you declare your reserves.

This is based on what?

Because the infiltrate rule actually says that they are deployed after both sides have deployed everything else, and putting units into reserve happens instead of deploying them. So you have no permission to put infiltrators into reserve until after the remainder of both armies are deployed.

well wouldnt it in that case mean shadowsun would be "deployed" in reserves after all others are put into reserves meaning she could join the BG squad?

EDIT TL;DR jumped the gun question asked but not answered lol

The Arriving from Reserves section also uses the "deploys" language and seems to say that models are deployed when they arrive from deepstrike as well. Shadowsun very may be deployed in reserves later, but the Reserves seciont says you declare all reserves then, that should prelude the Infiltrate special rule as being declared into reserves is not quite the same as being deployed.

It would seem to me that if GW consistently used one set of verbiage in each rules section then they wouldn’t need to release any kind of FAQ in regards to deployment, reserves, deep strike, etc. In the case of the topic being discussed a simple FAQ would read as such (CHANGES IN CAPS):

Deep Strike: 36
“When working out how many units can be placed in reserve, units that must be ARRIVE BY by Deep Strike (along with any models embarked upon them) are ignored.”
“Roll for the arrival of all deep striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then PLACE them ON THE TABLE as follows:”
“Models ARRIVING via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain.”
“If any of the models in a deep striking unit cannot be PLACED IN BASE CONTACT WITH THE FIRST MODEL PLACED ON THE TABLE AS DESCRIBED IN ARRIVING BY DEEP STRIKE, because at least one model…”
“Your opponent may PLACE the unit anywhere on the table…”


Reserves: 124
“When Reserves arrive, the player picks any one of the units arriving and PLACES it onto the table as described below.”
“(USE THE SAME maps and diagrams illustrating table edges shown on page 119 AS USED DURING DEPLOYMENT). Models that are arriving by Deep Strike or Outflank ARE PLACED ON THE TABLE using their special rules (see pages 36 and 40).”


These changes would seem to best fit with the intentions (not RAW but intentions) due to the dominance of verbiage like “arrive” and “place on the table” in the Deep Strike and Reserves verses the use of “deploy.” If GW would have been consistent in their language then this whole thing becomes clear.

In this case, if FAQ above is correct, then of course Shadowsun can join the unit because it is done while in Reserves and is not being “deployed” with them. The proposed FAQ would also clear things up for Eldar playing Illic.

Of course, if GW intends that ANY and EVERY time a model is placed on the table that it is being “deployed” whether it is the Deployment Phase prior to turn 1 or not, then GW simply needs to put out a one sentence FAQ which would read, “WITH THE EXCEPTION OF READY RESERVE, ANY TIME A MODEL IS PLACED ON THE TABLE FOR THE FIRST TIME IT IS CONSIDERED AS BEING DEPLOYED.” It’s one way or the other; either models are always deployed, or only deployed prior to turn one. It would seem that GW intends for the second, but then again, this is GW that we’re talking about ;-)