Wraithspam vs Tau how to beat?

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Exergy**

pantsonhead wrote:
ansacs wrote:

WK 4 attacks, hit on a 3+ (2.7 hits), 2+ to wound (2.25 wounds), and 3++ save (0.75 unsaved wounds) so you may not even take a wound but will average 1.5 wounds every game turn

Riptide 2 attacks, hit on 4+ (1 hit), 2+ to wound (0.83 wounds), and 5++ or - (0.55 unsaved wounds or 0.83 unsaved wounds) so assuming your nova reactor stays up the best WK loadout will loose combat to you on average over time or the shield version will just barely beat you.

Now if you bothered taking something to improve your leadership (ie you are tarpitting the unit nearby your ethereal led gunline) then you will hold the WK up for an entire battle. Therefore you can tarpit the majority of the other player's points once it gets close enough to charge your gunline. Really WK are better off having a standoff gunfight with a riptide as they are significantly more expensive and have the chance to ID the riptide (with the stock loadout).

I think you've underestimated the WK here by ignoring the chance of the nova reactor failing and by assuming that it's easy to have an Ethereal close by. Your Riptide has to be within 12" of your Ethereal and in front of him, otherwise the WK is going to charge something else. The WK can threaten a charge from about 18" whereas the Riptide can only threaten a charge from about 12", so you basically need to have very little besides Riptides in front of your Ethereal.

But either way, we can simulate this out. We'll assume a stock WK shoots and charges a Riptide which is trying for its 3++ every turn. Both start with full wounds. WK gets its 2 shots and then 5 S10 WS4 attacks on the charge and 4 every round thereafter. Riptide overwatches with 3 S7 and 1 S8 shot which ignore the WK's save and gets 2 S10 WS2 attacks every round provided it passes its Fear test. Provided I coded that right, the WK kills the Riptide 89% of the time in an average of 3 rounds of combat. The Riptide wins 9% of the time in an average of 5 rounds of combat. The Riptide successfully runs away in 2% of combats.

When the Riptide is within 12" of an Ethereal and so is Ld10, the WK wins 88% of the time and the Riptide wins 10.5% of the time.
When the Riptide is Ld10 and Stubborn, the WK wins 88% of the time and the Riptide wins 11% of the time.

So none of this is making a huge difference. The Riptide expects to tie up the WK for a game turn, but it expects to go down doing it. The WK drops the Riptide on the round it charges in about 26% of games, kills the Riptide in the Tau player's turn 15% of the time, and kills it in the next Eldar turn 17% of the time.

Edit: To expand on this a little, what's going on here is that a failed nova reactor attempt is devastating. You note that with a 3++ a Riptide only expects to take 1.5 wounds per game turn in a fight with a WK. But every game turn it has a 1/3 chance of failing its nova reactor, which doubles the number of wounds it takes from the WK and adds 1 on top of that. So 1/3 of the time you take 4 wounds per game turn. On average you take 2.33 wounds per game turn and you last an average of 2.14 game turns. But the average is misleading here, since if you fail your nova charge on any given turn you're likely already dead. The WK's powerful shooting and its extra attack for charging also help it bring the Riptide's life expectancy down, and if the Riptide fails its nova charge on the same turn that the WK charges it's likely to get obliterated.

Basically that was what I was going at. 1/3 of the time it fails it's nova reactor, takes a bunch of wounds and when it takes a bunch of wounds is likely to run if it isn't stubborn.

**fuhrmaaj**

ansacs wrote:
WAAC is majorly overused term. A 3 wraithknight list is not a WAAC list it is an extremely unbalanced list that only works on people not prepared to tarpit or kill MC.

Agreed. As soon as someone writes "WAAC" it usually dissuades me from discussing tactics because the two aren't related in any way. The term should only be used to describe a player and not a list because every list is, by definition, WAAC (the alternative is to win as long as it doesn't inconvenience the opponent I guess). WAAC really describes people who cheat or who display poor sportsmanship while playing (angry that you destroyed their Land Raider turn 1 or w/e). Two players can run identical lists, but if one player is WAAC then games played against that guy will be decidedly less fun as he cries when you kill his stuff. In the OP it sounds like you're the WAAC player because you're tailoring a list to ruin this guy's fun wraithspam list. It's all perspective, but either way this term shouldn't come up in the Tactics forum unless you're having troubles with a cheater.

Anyway, on the list at hand I think you'll be fine with any normal list. I would run HRRs on the XV88s too. Think of the Eldar WS as a T8 W6 MC which has a 1/6 chance of taking a penalty when is loses a wound. It is likely to turn pens into glances and is likely to have a 4+ cover save with HP3 so the best strategy is to figure out how to actually glance the thing and for that you need S6+. If you don't have enough range then it might just try to shield snipe you down from 60" away and the HRRs discourage that. If you are able to take the WSs down then the rest of the list should be clean up for you.

Wraithguard are only dangerous at very short range and you should be able to whittle them down with any unit in your army with volume fire. Fire Warriors are decent and sniper Kroot are better. If they take the D-scythe template weapon then you just have to spread out the models in your units so that you don't lose whole units at a time. If they just have wraithcannons then they're only good at holding objectives really. You'll take them down eventually.

Honestly the wraithknight isn't a huge threat either. He might be hard to bring down, but he can be ignored. Look at his loadout, if he is naked then he's good against vehicles and if he's got a suncannon then he's better against troops. Either way your goal will be to mitigate the damage it can deal by tarpitting it in CC and dealing with it last - after you've dealt with the wraithguard and the wave serpents. Go for objectives if you don't just flat out table him by turn 4.

**Godless-Mimicry**

What that guy said about WAAC ^^^^

**Super Ready**

Flavius Infernus wrote:
Hmmm, remember that the serpent shield fires d6+1 str7 shots that ignore cover. Sounds like an ideal weapon for wiping out swaths of kroot while the wraithknights move on to deal with other things.

Also the kroot sniper gun is only 24" and heavy, so the kroot can't move & shoot (except snapfire). A wraithknight is a jump MC--can easily move out of range.

If the Wave Serpents are silly enough to attack the Kroot (which, remember, should be outflanking behind them) then you have an even easier job. It won't have the 2+ conversion to turn penetrating hits to glancing, meaning the rest of the Tau can take it down in short order. Especially if it doesn't have Vectored Engines, as it also means they will likely be firing at rear armour...!! Admittedly this does leave the question of what to do about the Wraithknights next, but this series of events puts the advantage firmly in the Tau camp.

The second point I'll admit could be more of a pain. However bearing in mind that a) we're talking about 3 WKs and so you'll need 2 or 3 Kroot units anyway, and b) by this point we're in turn 2 so the effective board space being used should be much smaller, you should have at least some Kroot in range without having to move. Enough to pose a threat, certainly. The only ways I see this not being the case is if all 3 WKs are central on the board, or if for some silly reason they're not being moved forward with the Wave Serpents.

**pantsonhead**

I don't think I'm understanding you. When you outflank Kroot, they (maybe) show up on turn 2. When they do, you move them on to the board. They can't snipe that turn without snap-firing - they've already moved. So you don't get to really lay down fire until turn 3, provided the Eldar player has killed most of your markerlights already.

Wraithknights may be threatening charges on turn 2 as well, and will definitely be threatening charges on turn 3. Unless the Tau player goes first and his whole deployed army is more than 6" back from the front of his deployment zone in a corner, outflanking Kroot will be too late, and unless they show up right on the Wraithknights' heels they may still not be in sniper range of WKs that have just finished crushing Tau units in CC. If they do show up right next to the WKs the WKs don't lose much by assaulting them, and if there's no Ethereal with them they're in serious danger of getting swept, even with a Hound.

It seems to me that the obvious play is to deploy the Kroot as normal in order to create a zone that the WKs don't want to enter and hope the rest of your army can outshoot the Eldar. This may be difficult, since the Eldar player has the option of hanging out more than 42" from your missile suits while shooting up your Troops for most of the game before going for objectives, but at least you won't get tabled the way you would without snipers on the board from turn 1.

**Super Ready**

pantsonhead wrote:
Unless the Tau player goes first and his whole deployed army is more than 6" back from the front of his deployment zone in a corner

Apart from markerlights, Tau should be deploying further back 99% of the time anyway. ...so ok, maybe not in the corner. :p

It seems to me that the obvious play is to deploy the Kroot as normal in order to create a zone that the WKs don't want to enter and hope the rest of your army can outshoot the Eldar.

Now this idea I like and can see working better. It does have one problem though...if you let the Wave Serpents get close and disgorge D-Scythes, those Kroot will just vanish into the air.

**D6Damager**

Daba wrote:
Remember sniper ammo is Heavy, so the turn they come on from outflank is one where they can't hit very well.

This is what markerlights are for. They can be used to improve snapfire shots.

**fuhrmaaj**

D6Damager wrote:
Daba wrote:
Remember sniper ammo is Heavy, so the turn they come on from outflank is one where they can't hit very well.

This is what markerlights are for. They can be used to improve snapfire shots.

Exactly. It's not like there are a ton of targets in this Eldar list and all of the available targets would be high priority in any other Eldar list. I think the key is to figure out what you have the ability to kill that turn and focus it down with everything. If you have 3 units of 4 PFs (just for example), then you have the ability to potentially negate the cover saves on three Wave Serpents. I would fire at one WS, average 2 hits, then shoot AT at it until it goes down. If it's not going down then you can add more lights to negate more cover saves or add BS as appropriate. If you have outflanking Kroot coming on near a Wraithknight, then mark it a lot and your kroot can snapfire it down. Just figure out what you can do and commit to it because dividing your fire will not reduce the amount of pain you receive on the following turn.

**pantsonhead**

The difficulty with this is that Eldar are pretty good at taking out Pathfinders. A Serpent expects to kill 1.67 from 60" regardless of cover, or 3.7 from 36" in 4+ cover. That is, 3 Serpents have a decent chance of wiping out your 3 units of 4 PFs in one turn, even if they've got 4+ cover saves. They probably force Pinning and Morale checks too. PFs are also targets of opportunity for Warp Spiders and Windriders which may otherwise not be in range of anything else and which will be able to duck away from return fire.

**Super Ready**

pantsonhead wrote:
A Serpent expects to kill 1.67 from 60" regardless of cover, or 3.7 from 36" in 4+ cover.

Those numbers seem a little high unless you're including firing the shield. If so - you're not gonna need markerlights to concentrate on and blast the Serpents down next turn.
You're also assuming the Pathfinders are deployed in such a way that 1 Serpent will have perfect line of sight to 1 Pathfinder unit each.

**Daba**

Super Ready wrote:
pantsonhead wrote:
A Serpent expects to kill 1.67 from 60" regardless of cover, or 3.7 from 36" in 4+ cover.

Those numbers seem a little high unless you're including firing the shield. If so - you're not gonna need markerlights to concentrate on and blast the Serpents down next turn.
You're also assuming the Pathfinders are deployed in such a way that 1 Serpent will have perfect line of sight to 1 Pathfinder unit each.

A Serpent can move 12" and shoot. If they are in such a way that they not see a Pathfinder unit (even one model in it), the Pathfinder unit cannot see it (or be only able to fire the one or two models), and they can't redeploy as easily thanks to heavy weapons.

The Serpent shield: 4.5 shots average, 2/3 hit, 5/6 wound, 1/3 save*5/6 = 1.67 kills. It can't shoot at 60" without firing the shield.

At 36", you have the Scatter Laser hitting first and with one hit (4 shots, twin linked), the Serpent Shield hits 0.889 times per shot rather than 0.667. This increases the expected kills to 2.23 on that gun alone, plus a casualty and a half from the Scatter Laser.

**Super Ready**

Fair enough on being able to target the units, though moving in such a way could mess with their role as transports. But if those Serpents are firing the shield, they have nothing to stop all the penetrating hits the Tau will be putting into them the next turn. You don't really need markerlights for that.

**Daba**

Super Ready wrote:
Fair enough on being able to target the units, though moving in such a way could mess with their role as transports. But if those Serpents are firing the shield, they have nothing to stop all the penetrating hits the Tau will be putting into them the next turn. You don't really need markerlights for that.

The cover saves stop more than the Serpent Shield ever does. Removing cover literally doubles your firepower against them.

Tau don't really put that many Penetrating hits in outside of Railguns, but against Serpents missile pods perform much better against them than Railheads or Railgun Broadsides.

**Flavius Infernus**

...all the penetrating hits that they get from rolling straight 6's to pen with their str7 missile pods?

With half the shots missing due to BS3 and another half being negated by 4+ jink saves?

**Dracos**

Broadsides are TL, so no they don't miss half the shots, they miss 25%. Jink can be dismissed by markerlights, so if something needs to disappear the broadsides + pathfinders can normally make it happen - provided they have range.

I'd like to point out again that HRR broadsides really are better against serpents because they prevent the serpents from spending the first few turns out of range abusing their shields offensively. The increased output in HYMP can't come close to this advantage.

**pantsonhead**

Dracos wrote:
Broadsides are TL, so no they don't miss half the shots, they miss 25%. Jink can be dismissed by markerlights, so if something needs to disappear the broadsides + pathfinders can normally make it happen - provided they have range.

I'd like to point out again that HRR broadsides really are better against serpents because they prevent the serpents from spending the first few turns out of range abusing their shields offensively. The increased output in HYMP can't come close to this advantage.

Yes, it's an option worth thinking about. I think that as hard as the Eldar vs Tau matchup looks for Eldar at first, many real Tau lists actually suffer from having almost no firepower at >42" and end up losing objective games to more mobile Eldar lists pretty badly. It's not uncommon for Riptides to be the only thing that can hit Serpents at max range, and that's only 9 BS3 shots. Three Riptides expect to produce less than a single damaging hit per turn on Serpents. Meanwhile 5 Serpents are landing 20 S7 hits per turn, on average (more if Guided), and can be aiming at better targets than AV12 vehicles. Eldar HS choices typically also have a way to put down some fire on Tau without getting shot at in return. If you don't have the mobility to force the kind of fight you want to have, you need to have the firepower to win the kind of fight your opponent wants to have. The Farsight Bomb is another option.

**Flavius Infernus**

Dracos wrote:
Broadsides are TL, so no they don't miss half the shots, they miss 25%. Jink can be dismissed by markerlights, so if something needs to disappear the broadsides + pathfinders can normally make it happen - provided they have range.

I'd like to point out again that HRR broadsides really are better against serpents because they prevent the serpents from spending the first few turns out of range abusing their shields offensively. The increased output in HYMP can't come close to this advantage.

Check the earlier parts of this thread about how pathfinders die turn 1 precisely because of the power of markerlights.

What I was seeing in my area just after the release of the Tau codex was a lot of Tau players pulling the HRRs off their broadsides and replacing them with HYMPs. It seems to me like wave serpents are the main reason for gluing some of those HRRs back on. They are much more effective against wave serpents, which is why they get second priority as targets after pathfinders.

Not that missile pods aren't a threat, but the threat is typically glancing a wave serpent to death rather than penning it. Considering that a given missile has only about a 4% chance of scoring a pen on a wave serpent (assuming BS3, no twin-linking and a holofield jink) the idea of missile pods causing mass pens just isn't likely.

And that, of course, assumes that the wave serpent decides to end its turn within 42 inches of the shooter, or 36 in the case of Missilesides, which often is not necessary.

**pantsonhead**

I don't think looking at a single shot is all that useful. A HYMP Broadside averages .5 glances and .5 pens. A HRR Broadside averages .125 glances and .25 pens. The HRR's pens are better, but the HYMP is competitive even without the glances. The HRR's advantage is its range.

**Gray1378**

This is really too easy. 3x3 missile sides with mc hunter ignores cover drone controller commander.

36x3 str 6-8 missiles going at this list will make it fall and fast. Tau have really nothing to worry about against the new eldar as we ignore cover and have a vast array of high str weapons.

**ansacs**

Congrats you are managing a whopping ~4 wounds a turn on the WK assuming you never loose a single unit and the WK stay within 36" of you but never dare to charge your suits or any of your other units. You'll even manage to kill all of them as long as they don't actually try to hurt you.

Missile sides are pathetic against WK as they wound on 5+ and let the WK take his 3+ save. The WK in return doubles your T out and doesn't allow a save at the same range.

**D6Damager**

pantsonhead wrote:
The difficulty with this is that Eldar are pretty good at taking out Pathfinders.

So...get a Skyshield Landing Pad to protect yourself from shuriken shot spam and wave serpents. It's a cheap fortification and the pad is large enough you can put a unit of pathfinders and a full squad of broadsides/drones on it for the 4++ with plenty of room to spare. It's also tall enough to give cover saves to your riptide and/or hammerhead with proper deployment.

People keep taking ADLs and the Eldar can ignore the ignore the cover save easily and destroy the quad gun or Icarus within their first turn of shooting if they brought warp spiders/rangers or jetbikes besides their wave serpents. Tau have great AA and don't need the gun emplacement, but they do need an invulnerable save that the pad provides. If you want to castle up and shoot...go with the pad vs. the ADL.

There are also plenty of other sources of markerlights besides pathfinders:

For marker lights I use a Skyray, Tetras, and Markerlight drones which are all much more survivable and maneuverable than pathfinders (and I still use at least 1 unit of 7 PFs). A lot of people like to use a commander with drone controller and a pile of markerlight drones as well.

If you're really going to tailor lists then Tau have all the tools they need to take down Eldar barring bad dice rolls. The really good news is these same things are also great vs. other armies too.

**Dumah12**

Tau have a fantastic counter to wave serpent with marker lights, remove cover saves with marker lights and make wraith units eat S7 guns for days.

And I agree with the kroot as an answer to the wraithknights (which IMOP suck, they pay for a landraider with 2 shots that can get tarpited by the cheapest of units) but even them S7 missiles will answer those ugly monstrosities anyway.

**Flavius Infernus**

Dumah12 wrote:
Tau have a fantastic counter to wave serpent with marker lights, remove cover saves with marker lights and make wraith units eat S7 guns for days.

And I agree with the kroot as an answer to the wraithknights (which IMOP suck, they pay for a landraider with 2 shots that can get tarpited by the cheapest of units) but even them S7 missiles will answer those ugly monstrosities anyway.

Maybe you somehow missed the part of the thread about how wave serpents ignore cover. Therefore they kill the pathfinders in turn one (so no more markerlights) and kill the kroot on the turn when they arrive with their heavy1 weapons they can only snapfire??

**NickOnwezen**

Honestly as someone who has played the wraith spam list, its a hundred times more efefctive with only 1 wraith knight and 2 wraith lords with a 6 wraithblades (axe & shield) & 3 seer shadow council. If one fo them takes the wraith forge stone and 1 the guardian helm your looking at something that takes your gimmick and rolls with it, namely beeing a gunline, that as a bonus regenerates wounds like a champ. with 3 seers you'll see those Wraithlords and 2 wraith knights regenerating 2 to 3 wounds a turn and running towards you due to a spirit seer giving those wraithguard battle focus and running across the table with the wraith knight jetpacking along while the knights flank and get cover saves from their unit.

If its just 3 wraith knights its a much easier thing. You can effectively just ignore the Knights because their fire output just isn't there. Just spam the serpents down and you take all of the mobility out of the list. then throw HYMP broadsides over those wraithguard you popped out of their transports and they will be gone. This is a classic example of someone hearing that wraith knights, guards and serpents are good in situations where they can show their strengths but combining these units in a way that they inhibit eachothers effectiveness. Kill his serpents, then his guard and then deal with his wraith knights. If you feel you can spare the points then by all means just tarpit the knights in CC and there will be nothing this player can do to you.

**Dumah12**

Flavius Infernus wrote:
Dumah12 wrote:
Tau have a fantastic counter to wave serpent with marker lights, remove cover saves with marker lights and make wraith units eat S7 guns for days.

And I agree with the kroot as an answer to the wraithknights (which IMOP suck, they pay for a landraider with 2 shots that can get tarpited by the cheapest of units) but even them S7 missiles will answer those ugly monstrosities anyway.

Maybe you somehow missed the part of the thread about how wave serpents ignore cover. Therefore they kill the pathfinders in turn one (so no more markerlights) and kill the kroot on the turn when they arrive with their heavy1 weapons they can only snapfire??

So from that logic all tau players should just forfeit as soon as they see eldar on the table. Sorry tau players you codex sucks so bad that you have an auto lose against us? You sir make a fabulous argument! I don't think anyone could ever deny that! oh wait I will!

For people who don't want to instant loose, here is my suggestion with more detail. Pathfinders are not instant gibed by the wave serpents, yes it ignores cover but they still have a 5+ and all you need is 2 ML to hit for HYMP broadsides to pound those wave serpents. so my suggestion as would any other competent player, play multiple squads of pathfinders. Who would have thought that in 40k you should play multiples. Play max squads if you feel like it not necessary but couldn't hurt. Once you open those serpents and make wraithguard walk across the table they are dead against tau. Deploy smart at the back of the table. And if they took first and if they expend the serpent shield the loose the ability to make a pen into a glance and thats sweet music to your ears.

Also tau is a shooting/gun line army, you are foolish if you think outflanking kroot by themselves is going to do anything. Hold them back by your fire warriors with your other guns and shoot in mass and tarpit those wraithnights. Do not outflank them to get blown away by scatter laser fire and SC shots. Thats a waste of points and a great way to give up first blood.

Also Flavius Infernus before calling my points stupid, perhaps you should learn how to play the game better than that of a child before you say there is no possible way the solutions posed would work

**Flavius Infernus**

No need for personal attacks there, Dumah12. I don't think that I called your points "stupid."

I do suggest that it's generally a good policy to read a whole thread before posting, in order to avoid the danger of repeating on page 2 things that have already been hashed out on page 1.

If you have something new to add, that would be great.

**ansacs**

Why does everyone think S7 missile weapons that allow the WK its save is a "good" answer to a WK? A weapon that takes 54 hits to kill a single WK, aka 72 TL BS3 shots or 108 BS3 shots. Those S7 missiles are pathetic for killing a WK as the WK is great for killing all the broadsides. Finally getting all those broadsides within range to target the WK is not going to be easy as it is more likely 2-3 WK will end up in CC with your units and simply steam roll through your lines over the course of 2-3 turns.

The kroot are much more cost effective and are resistant to being killed by the WK. Additionally they are even more cost effective per wound. (ie tarpit kroot with sniper rifles is a much better answer or DS fusion blaster crisis suits if you actually want to kill it)

Pathfinder ML have serious troubles with WS. Your HYMP broadsides will have to be very lucky to be within their 36" range of a WS with a 60" range weapon. The rail rifle is a decent counter but I personally think the riptide and crisis suits are much better. The riptide can chip away with 3 S7 all game and when the serpent drops its shield the riptide gets to hammer it with a S9 AP2 ordnance. The crisis suits can suicide drop behind the serpents and fusion blaster them to death. HYMP is just not the answer unless you just want a zone where the WS don't particularly want to go.

If you really want to keep markerlights alive you want a bunker (bastion or firestorm redoubt) or you want an iridium armour commander led markerlight drones unit. 3 units of 5 pathfinders is 3-4 WS away from being pinned, running, or dead.

**JGrand**

Why does everyone think S7 missile weapons that allow the WK its save is a "good" answer to a WK? A weapon that takes 54 hits to kill a single WK, aka 72 TL BS3 shots or 108 BS3 shots. Those S7 missiles are pathetic for killing a WK as the WK is great for killing all the broadsides. Finally getting all those broadsides within range to target the WK is not going to be easy as it is more likely 2-3 WK will end up in CC with your units and simply steam roll through your lines over the course of 2-3 turns.

Because smart players are taking a Commander with MSSS, Puretide, and Iridium Armor with their Broadside unit. In addition, 6 missile drones is pretty normal. While expensive, they combine nicely with the Command and Control Node. That unit will put a serious hurt of Wraithknights. Not the best answer ever, but combined with 2 Skyrays and 3 Riptides, Tau can deal with Knights. It isn't easy, but it is possible.

**agnosto**

Grey knight allies. GK libby with terminator troops with swords in the front for 4++ vs. the pitiful few attacks WK's get, followed by hammers. One hammer gets through, fire off the force weapon and down goes the wraithknight in one turn. 720 pts with libby w/stave and LR Crusader ride. Might of titan with libby = S10 hammers. Done it, works well and the unit just moved on to the next target the next turn.

Pure tau. Kroot snipers in cover. 20 kroot snipers are 140 pts...

**pantsonhead**

JGrand wrote:

Because smart players are taking a Commander with MSSS, Puretide, and Iridium Armor with their Broadside unit. In addition, 6 missile drones is pretty normal. While expensive, they combine nicely with the Command and Control Node. That unit will put a serious hurt of Wraithknights. Not the best answer ever, but combined with 2 Skyrays and 3 Riptides, Tau can deal with Knights. It isn't easy, but it is possible.

But this sort of unit is actually one reason why Wraithknights are so valuable for Eldar vs many Tau lists. An M3S T5 Commander with Broadsides can make Serpents and War Walkers and whatnot very, very sad. The Commander can tank or LOS on to drones or Broadsides as appropriate, while the whole big unit gets to ignore cover and reroll penetration (and the drones get to reroll hits). The WK, with its S10 AP2 guns, makes it a lot scarier for the Commander to be standing out in front - one failed LOS and he's going to get pasted. But drones in front are easily dispatched by Serpents from range, and once the Broadsides become valid targets they won't last long. The WK's guns are 36" too, so he can just barely clip a Commander in front without risking HYMP fire from the Broadsides (unless they snap fire) and even while denying a lot of drone fire if it's a big unit.

agnosto wrote:
Grey knight allies. GK libby with terminator troops with swords in the front for 4++ vs. the pitiful few attacks WK's get, followed by hammers. One hammer gets through, fire off the force weapon and down goes the wraithknight in one turn. 720 pts with libby w/stave and LR Crusader ride. Might of titan with libby = S10 hammers. Done it, works well and the unit just moved on to the next target the next turn.

But the WK (and BLs) aren't bad against this. Land Raiders are extremely vulnerable against the sort of firepower Eldar lists often bring. 4 BLs and a Wraithknight are the equivalent of 6 BS4 S10 AP2 shots per turn. The LRC can't approach the WK without getting charged, which probably kills it, and at that point the WK has made its points back and the Terminators are welcome to it. Force weapons without the LRC, just hanging out near the Broadsides or whatever, are reasonable, but you're paying about as much to scare off the WK as the WK is worth, and the WK still gets to shoot you.