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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/24 15:35:21
Subject: Riptide Firing Ordnance - can it move?
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Painting Within the Lines
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I may have been illegally moving my Riptide when firing Ordnance from the Nova charged Ion Accelerator. Is there any rule about Monstrous creatures firing Ordnance that allows them to move and shoot (or does Relentless allow you to move and shoot Ordnance?)? Or does it have to remain stationary per the firing ordnance rules. Also, is it limited to just firing the one weapon?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/24 15:38:07
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/24 15:43:08
Subject: Riptide Firing Ordnance - can it move?
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The Hive Mind
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Have you checked the rulebook? None of these questions have much grey area at all in the rules...
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/24 15:45:58
Subject: Riptide Firing Ordnance - can it move?
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Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre
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Relentless covers this, yes you can do all that.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/24 15:49:18
Subject: Riptide Firing Ordnance - can it move?
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The Hive Mind
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If you're going to give him the rules, at least be accurate.
No, you cannot fire another weapon if you fire Ordnance, even with Relentless.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/24 16:27:53
Subject: Riptide Firing Ordnance - can it move?
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Sneaky Sniper Drone
Firebase Zulu
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Tau just love to have rules in conflict.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/24 16:33:59
Subject: Riptide Firing Ordnance - can it move?
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Sneaky Lictor
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rigeld2 wrote:If you're going to give him the rules, at least be accurate.
No, you cannot fire another weapon if you fire Ordnance, even with Relentless.
A Multi-Tracker say you can fire an additional weapon each turn. p-69 C:Tau
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/24 16:35:03
Subject: Riptide Firing Ordnance - can it move?
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The Hive Mind
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Steel-W0LF wrote:rigeld2 wrote:If you're going to give him the rules, at least be accurate.
No, you cannot fire another weapon if you fire Ordnance, even with Relentless.
A Multi-Tracker say you can fire an additional weapon each turn. p-69 C:Tau
And now you should read the Ordnance rules. Nothing in Multi-Tracker overrides that (that I know of - no Tau codex).
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/24 16:39:09
Subject: Riptide Firing Ordnance - can it move?
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Sneaky Lictor
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rigeld2 wrote: Steel-W0LF wrote:rigeld2 wrote:If you're going to give him the rules, at least be accurate.
No, you cannot fire another weapon if you fire Ordnance, even with Relentless.
A Multi-Tracker say you can fire an additional weapon each turn. p-69 C:Tau
And now you should read the Ordnance rules. Nothing in Multi-Tracker overrides that (that I know of - no Tau codex).
Codex's over rule BRB...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/24 16:43:49
Subject: Riptide Firing Ordnance - can it move?
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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Steel-W0LF wrote:rigeld2 wrote: Steel-W0LF wrote:rigeld2 wrote:If you're going to give him the rules, at least be accurate.
No, you cannot fire another weapon if you fire Ordnance, even with Relentless.
A Multi-Tracker say you can fire an additional weapon each turn. p-69 C:Tau
And now you should read the Ordnance rules. Nothing in Multi-Tracker overrides that (that I know of - no Tau codex).
Codex's over rule BRB...
No, specific > general.
In general, a model with a multi-tracker can fire one more weapon than normally allowed.
Ordinance says you cannot fire any additional weapons. This is more specific.
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/24 16:49:01
Subject: Riptide Firing Ordnance - can it move?
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Sneaky Lictor
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Grey Templar wrote: Steel-W0LF wrote:rigeld2 wrote: Steel-W0LF wrote:rigeld2 wrote:If you're going to give him the rules, at least be accurate.
No, you cannot fire another weapon if you fire Ordnance, even with Relentless.
A Multi-Tracker say you can fire an additional weapon each turn. p-69 C:Tau
And now you should read the Ordnance rules. Nothing in Multi-Tracker overrides that (that I know of - no Tau codex).
Codex's over rule BRB...
No, specific > general.
In general, a model with a multi-tracker can fire one more weapon than normally allowed.
Ordinance says you cannot fire any additional weapons. This is more specific.
Page number to this ruling?
There is nothing in the Multitracker Rule that says "In general", it says "models with a multi-tracker MAY..." not might, not can sometimes....
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/24 16:51:40
Subject: Re:Riptide Firing Ordnance - can it move?
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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Its not a ruling. The wording of the multi-tracker is more general than the wording of Ordinance.
Multi-tracker applies to all shooting. Ordinance applies to a very specific instance, and thus is more specific.
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/24 16:59:13
Subject: Re:Riptide Firing Ordnance - can it move?
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Sneaky Lictor
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Grey Templar wrote:Its not a ruling. The wording of the multi-tracker is more general than the wording of Ordinance.
Multi-tracker applies to all shooting. Ordinance applies to a very specific instance, and thus is more specific.
Soooo? Whats the page number that says specific things over rule general ones?
Monstrous Creatures also have the Relentless special rule that says they can move and shoot ordinance, and charge after doing so.
So far I just see people trying to claim a codex special rule doesn't over ride a BRB rule with 0 to back it up.
Where in the rule book is this "specific rules over rule general rules" rule you keep talking about. I'd actually counter that there is a lot of evidence GW wanted them to fire 2 each turn.
MC's can already fire 2 per turn.
If fired as ordinance, it can only fire one. per the Ordinance Rules.
Multi-Tracker brings this back up to 2.
Otherwise the Multi-Tracker is redundant because a MC can already fire 2 weapons.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/24 17:01:40
Subject: Re:Riptide Firing Ordnance - can it move?
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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I'll counter by saying "what page does it say codex overrides main rule book"?
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/24 17:04:39
Subject: Re:Riptide Firing Ordnance - can it move?
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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Grey Templar wrote:I'll counter by saying "what page does it say codex overrides main rule book"?
Actually page 7 states that, but only when there is a conflict. "On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex.'Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex always takes precedence." (7) But the Ordnance rules give a restriction and the multi tracker does not override the Ordnance restriction.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/24 17:07:08
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/24 17:05:14
Subject: Riptide Firing Ordnance - can it move?
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Sneaky Lictor
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Looking at it further, this is how it would work:
Number of shots per BRB-----------------------------+Tau Codex
Monstrous Creature
2.....................................................................................+1 =3
Ordinance over rules the MC rule
1......................................................................................+1 =2
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/24 17:06:39
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/24 17:08:22
Subject: Re:Riptide Firing Ordnance - can it move?
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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Then we can use the modifier rules to sort this out.
Multi-tracker is a modifier. Ordinance is a set modifier.
MC can fire 2 weapons. +1 for multi-tracker= 3 Ordinance is a set modifier and is applied last for only 1.
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/24 17:11:21
Subject: Re:Riptide Firing Ordnance - can it move?
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Sneaky Lictor
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Grey Templar wrote:Then we can use the modifier rules to sort this out.
Multi-tracker is a modifier. Ordinance is a set modifier.
MC can fire 2 weapons. +1 for multi-tracker= 3 Ordinance is a set modifier and is applied last for only 1.
Except for the whole page 7 thing about codex's over ruling the BRB which INCLUDES the ordinance rules...
annnnnnnd number of weapon systems something can fire is not part of the stat line modifiers. Automatically Appended Next Post: Its OK though, I often mix things in from previous editions that are no longer in 6th edition.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/24 17:14:15
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/24 17:26:18
Subject: Riptide Firing Ordnance - can it move?
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The Hive Mind
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Page 7 overrides when there's a conflict.
There's no conflict here. This isn't a leftover from an old edition, this is how rules currently exist.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/24 17:28:52
Subject: Riptide Firing Ordnance - can it move?
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Sneaky Sniper Drone
Firebase Zulu
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Sure there is a conflict. Monstrous Creature rules and Multi Tracker rules says that the model can fire 2 weapons or an additional weapon which conflicts with the Ordinance rules that says no other weapons.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/24 17:37:55
Subject: Riptide Firing Ordnance - can it move?
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The Hive Mind
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Miri wrote:Sure there is a conflict. Monstrous Creature rules and Multi Tracker rules says that the model can fire 2 weapons or an additional weapon which conflicts with the Ordinance rules that says no other weapons.
That's not a conflict.
A conflict is when you have a rule like "Snap Shot" that says it cannot ever be modified.
Tau marker lights specify they can modify a Snap Shot. This is when page 7 comes into play.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/24 18:49:09
Subject: Re:Riptide Firing Ordnance - can it move?
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Sneaky Lictor
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Ordinance rule says only one weapon.
Tau codex says one additional.
That's a conflict.
The codex wins.
End of story. Arguing otherwise negates all kinds of "codex trumps.." rulings. It just doesn't float.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/24 18:53:49
Subject: Re:Riptide Firing Ordnance - can it move?
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
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Steel-W0LF wrote:Ordinance rule says only one weapon.
Tau codex says one additional.
That's a conflict.
The codex wins.
End of story. Arguing otherwise negates all kinds of "codex trumps.." rulings. It just doesn't float.
There's no direct conflict, so we never go to Codex>BRB.
As it stands it only fires 1 whilst firing ord.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/24 19:17:14
Subject: Re:Riptide Firing Ordnance - can it move?
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Sneaky Lictor
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jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote: Steel-W0LF wrote:Ordinance rule says only one weapon.
Tau codex says one additional.
That's a conflict.
The codex wins.
End of story. Arguing otherwise negates all kinds of "codex trumps.." rulings. It just doesn't float.
There's no direct conflict, so we never go to Codex>BRB.
As it stands it only fires 1 whilst firing ord.
And the codex says they fire 1 additional.
Codex wins. Counter the argument with something from the codex, or lose the debate. The BRB does not over rule a codex rule stating an additional weapon may be fired.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/24 19:29:44
Subject: Riptide Firing Ordnance - can it move?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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except the codex does not say "even when firing ordnance", so is not more specific, and does not win over the rulebook
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/24 19:29:46
Subject: Riptide Firing Ordnance - can it move?
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The Hive Mind
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It actually does and you're not understanding how rules work.
How about - maybe - cite the conflict. You've failed to so far.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/24 19:32:49
Subject: Re:Riptide Firing Ordnance - can it move?
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Rough Rider with Boomstick
Wiltshire
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Steel-W0LF wrote:jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote: Steel-W0LF wrote:Ordinance rule says only one weapon.
Tau codex says one additional.
That's a conflict.
The codex wins.
End of story. Arguing otherwise negates all kinds of "codex trumps.." rulings. It just doesn't float.
There's no direct conflict, so we never go to Codex>BRB.
As it stands it only fires 1 whilst firing ord.
And the codex says they fire 1 additional.
Codex wins. Counter the argument with something from the codex, or lose the debate. The BRB does not over rule a codex rule stating an additional weapon may be fired.
Multiple Modifiers.
Let's call the number of weapons allowed to fire N.
A riptide is an MC, so N = 2
Multitracker provides +1 weapon so
N = (2+1)
Set modifier from ordnance is one weapon so...
N = ((2+1) * 0) + 1
or N = 1
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Note to the reader: my username is not arrogance. No, my name is taken from the most excellent of commanders: Lord Castellan Creed, of the Imperial Guar- I mean Astra Militarum - who has a special rule known only as "Tactical Genius"... Although nowhere near as awesome as before, it now allows some cool stuff for the Guar- Astra Militarum - player. FEAR ME AND MY TWO WARLORD TRAITS. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/24 19:35:51
Subject: Re:Riptide Firing Ordnance - can it move?
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Sneaky Lictor
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Tactical_Genius wrote: Steel-W0LF wrote:jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote: Steel-W0LF wrote:Ordinance rule says only one weapon.
Tau codex says one additional.
That's a conflict.
The codex wins.
End of story. Arguing otherwise negates all kinds of "codex trumps.." rulings. It just doesn't float.
There's no direct conflict, so we never go to Codex>BRB.
As it stands it only fires 1 whilst firing ord.
And the codex says they fire 1 additional.
Codex wins. Counter the argument with something from the codex, or lose the debate. The BRB does not over rule a codex rule stating an additional weapon may be fired.
Multiple Modifiers.
Let's call the number of weapons allowed to fire N.
A riptide is an MC, so N = 2
Multitracker provides +1 weapon so
N = (2+1)
Set modifier from ordnance is one weapon so...
N = ((2+1) * 0) + 1
or N = 1
You're trying to apply statline modifier rules to rules that are not statline modifiers.
Try again.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/24 19:36:39
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/24 19:39:03
Subject: Riptide Firing Ordnance - can it move?
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Rough Rider with Boomstick
Wiltshire
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OK point conceded, but you haven't answered the most important questions: the ones posed by nos and rig.
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Note to the reader: my username is not arrogance. No, my name is taken from the most excellent of commanders: Lord Castellan Creed, of the Imperial Guar- I mean Astra Militarum - who has a special rule known only as "Tactical Genius"... Although nowhere near as awesome as before, it now allows some cool stuff for the Guar- Astra Militarum - player. FEAR ME AND MY TWO WARLORD TRAITS. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/24 19:59:47
Subject: Riptide Firing Ordnance - can it move?
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Sneaky Sniper Drone
Firebase Zulu
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Multi Trackers don't say "even when firing an enplaced weapon" yet it is accepted that a suit can fire a Quadgun on a Bastion and one of its own weapons. I don't know if there are any Marine vehicles with Ordnance weapons but Power of the Machine Spirit doesn't say anything about "even when firing ordnance", it simply says it "can fire one more weapon at its full Ballistic Skill than normally permitted."
The rules are not written with every exception in mind, it would be impossible to read them much less play them if they tried to do that. It is why they have such rules as "Codex trumps base" to resolve the issue.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/24 20:01:16
Subject: Riptide Firing Ordnance - can it move?
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Lieutenant Colonel
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its just like shooting missles from a storm raven,
yes Power of the machine spirit lets you fire one additional WEAPON,
but you cannot fire more then 2 missles still, because the specific missle rule is 2 per turn
some things like missles/ordanence has specific restrictions on how they affect # of weapons to be fired, specific permission to overide these limitations is needed, having a general bonus +1 to generic weapons fired in no way overides specific rules RE: missles/ordinance
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