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Made in fr
Hungry Little Ripper




Australia


Hi,
does anyone think Raveners, Lictors or Genestealers are usable at all in 40k, i know they can't assault the turn they come it but can they still be useful?

For Raveners, you could upgrade them with either Spinefists, Devs or Deathspitters and then they deep strike in, trying to get a bit of LoS cover and shoot, next turn they can assault.

For Lictors, you could deep strike him in near a single model maybe, a smaller one and then use Flesh hooks, if that doesn't kill the enemy, the enemy could assault next turn and you can do some damage, or you could use the same strategy as the Raveners.

For Genestealers, i have heard a couple people mention this, infiltrating and going to ground when shot at then assault next turn.

What are your opinions on these, do you think they could work at all?

Thanks

om nom nom 
   
Made in nl
Brainy Zoanthrope





I would yust let the raveners run. They are beasts so they go across the board fast. Give themm rending claws and they will do some damage

Lictor is to much points to yust trow away like that. He "may" kill something but thenn he yust gets shot. Our other elites are simply somuch better i don;t see a place for him.

You can't assault after going to ground can you?
   
Made in gb
Twisted Trueborn with Blaster






I use Raveners sometimes still. I either deep strike them equipped with Rending Claws and Deathspitters, or I just give them Rending Claws and rush them across the board, hugging terrain.

I cant say ive found a real place for lictors. But I do use Deathleaper often.

Genestealers are still an ok choice. Just infiltrate them and hug cover to get close. Take a broodlord for challenge shenanigans.

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Made in au
Tea-Kettle of Blood




Adelaide, South Australia

Usable? Yes. Competitive? No.

 Ailaros wrote:
You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.

"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" 
   
Made in sg
Brainy Zoanthrope





In mew few games so far I've seen both used.

Once my opponent used a Genestealer squad with a broodlord. They infiltrated, snuck closer out of LOS and... Got shot up. The broodlord made it into combat and took two wounds off a Ripper Base before being killed as well.

I used Raveners once, with RCs.
Deepstruck them out of LOS of all enemies and still, by the time my next turn rolled around, they were back in the box.

Now I'll give them another try at some point but the Raveners doing zero damage and essentially just being a distraction was a bit disappointing for a 175 points unit..
   
Made in us
Sneaky Lictor





Amoras wrote:
I would yust let the raveners run. They are beasts so they go across the board fast. Give themm rending claws and they will do some damage

Lictor is to much points to yust trow away like that. He "may" kill something but thenn he yust gets shot. Our other elites are simply somuch better i don;t see a place for him.

You can't assault after going to ground can you?


Yes, you can assault after going to ground **If you've gained fearless** as a means to stand back up. Because per the BRB FAQ after you've gained fearless you can act normally.
   
Made in fr
Hungry Little Ripper




Australia

So, Lictors are out of the picture.

Genestealers, maybe? Unlikely though.

Raveners could be ok, but usually just a diversion

Is this right on average?

And what about Deathleaper?

om nom nom 
   
Made in au
Tea-Kettle of Blood




Adelaide, South Australia

Deathleaper has some uses thanks to its special rules, the leadership drop is especially useful against HQs reliant on their leadership, like psykers.

 Ailaros wrote:
You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.

"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




none of the three are usable for competitive play really anymore. most success ive had with lichtors is with deathleaper only. making one psyker models LD go down for psychic tests is pretty awesome. specially if i can get the doom to land nearby and make them roll on 3d6. just more of a funny thing than something you can count on to work. really he just goes down to the first unit that engages him in CC or bolters him to death.

biggest success ive had with stealers is making them small units with a broodlord. psychic scream if you cant roll anything good on the chart. and try for something good to happen. otherwise they just kinda die before they get anywhere. not being able to assault the turn they outflank has kinda ruined em for me. ymgarl stealers ive seen used but with mixed success to say at best. kind of a gamble points dump deal. funny/fun but in a one trick pony way.

raveners just go squish for me no matter how i use em so i just dont anymore.

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Made in gb
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant





Teesside

I still think Deathleaper works, though he's expensive for what he does. Hide him in a ruin somewhere so i's hard for enemies to even get LOS to. Be mean with his leadership drop (and exploit it with stuff like Doom as mentioned above). Only bring him out to contest an objective or attack something you know he'll kill handily in a couple of turns.

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Made in ca
Grey Knight Psionic Stormraven Pilot





Canada

Genestealers are usefull as Ymargl, cause they can charge the turn they enter in game.

Lictor could also be usefull with his special rule allowing DS units in 6" range not to scatter. But as a fighting unit, his 5+ save is a big weakness IMO

Abyssus abyssum invocat

 
   
Made in us
Huge Hierodule





Louisiana

zteknon wrote:
none of the three are usable for competitive play really anymore. most success ive had with lichtors is with deathleaper only. making one psyker models LD go down for psychic tests is pretty awesome. specially if i can get the doom to land nearby and make them roll on 3d6. just more of a funny thing than something you can count on to work. really he just goes down to the first unit that engages him in CC or bolters him to death.

biggest success ive had with stealers is making them small units with a broodlord. psychic scream if you cant roll anything good on the chart. and try for something good to happen. otherwise they just kinda die before they get anywhere. not being able to assault the turn they outflank has kinda ruined em for me. ymgarl stealers ive seen used but with mixed success to say at best. kind of a gamble points dump deal. funny/fun but in a one trick pony way.

raveners just go squish for me no matter how i use em so i just dont anymore.


Psychic shriek is a witchfire so the brood lord (BS0) can't use it.

Been out of the game for awhile, trying to find time to get back into it. 
   
Made in au
Tea-Kettle of Blood




Adelaide, South Australia

 tetrisphreak wrote:
zteknon wrote:
none of the three are usable for competitive play really anymore. most success ive had with lichtors is with deathleaper only. making one psyker models LD go down for psychic tests is pretty awesome. specially if i can get the doom to land nearby and make them roll on 3d6. just more of a funny thing than something you can count on to work. really he just goes down to the first unit that engages him in CC or bolters him to death.

biggest success ive had with stealers is making them small units with a broodlord. psychic scream if you cant roll anything good on the chart. and try for something good to happen. otherwise they just kinda die before they get anywhere. not being able to assault the turn they outflank has kinda ruined em for me. ymgarl stealers ive seen used but with mixed success to say at best. kind of a gamble points dump deal. funny/fun but in a one trick pony way.

raveners just go squish for me no matter how i use em so i just dont anymore.


Psychic shriek is a witchfire so the brood lord (BS0) can't use it.


And you don't even get to reroll witchfires you can't use, which really killed my psychic choir Tyranid list I had planned when 6th was brand new.

 Ailaros wrote:
You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.

"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" 
   
Made in us
Sneaky Lictor





 PrinceRaven wrote:
 tetrisphreak wrote:
zteknon wrote:
none of the three are usable for competitive play really anymore. most success ive had with lichtors is with deathleaper only. making one psyker models LD go down for psychic tests is pretty awesome. specially if i can get the doom to land nearby and make them roll on 3d6. just more of a funny thing than something you can count on to work. really he just goes down to the first unit that engages him in CC or bolters him to death.

biggest success ive had with stealers is making them small units with a broodlord. psychic scream if you cant roll anything good on the chart. and try for something good to happen. otherwise they just kinda die before they get anywhere. not being able to assault the turn they outflank has kinda ruined em for me. ymgarl stealers ive seen used but with mixed success to say at best. kind of a gamble points dump deal. funny/fun but in a one trick pony way.

raveners just go squish for me no matter how i use em so i just dont anymore.


Psychic shriek is a witchfire so the brood lord (BS0) can't use it.


And you don't even get to reroll witchfires you can't use, which really killed my psychic choir Tyranid list I had planned when 6th was brand new.


What? I wasn't aware of that...I thought you could reroll psychic powers you couldn't use, ie Tervigon can't use invisibility, so if you we're to get it, you could reroll it...I'm gonna look that up right now...
   
Made in au
Tea-Kettle of Blood




Adelaide, South Australia

roxor08 wrote:
 PrinceRaven wrote:
 tetrisphreak wrote:
zteknon wrote:
none of the three are usable for competitive play really anymore. most success ive had with lichtors is with deathleaper only. making one psyker models LD go down for psychic tests is pretty awesome. specially if i can get the doom to land nearby and make them roll on 3d6. just more of a funny thing than something you can count on to work. really he just goes down to the first unit that engages him in CC or bolters him to death.

biggest success ive had with stealers is making them small units with a broodlord. psychic scream if you cant roll anything good on the chart. and try for something good to happen. otherwise they just kinda die before they get anywhere. not being able to assault the turn they outflank has kinda ruined em for me. ymgarl stealers ive seen used but with mixed success to say at best. kind of a gamble points dump deal. funny/fun but in a one trick pony way.

raveners just go squish for me no matter how i use em so i just dont anymore.


Psychic shriek is a witchfire so the brood lord (BS0) can't use it.


And you don't even get to reroll witchfires you can't use, which really killed my psychic choir Tyranid list I had planned when 6th was brand new.


What? I wasn't aware of that...I thought you could reroll psychic powers you couldn't use, ie Tervigon can't use invisibility, so if you we're to get it, you could reroll it...I'm gonna look that up right now...


Unfortunately, that only applies to powers you can't use because of your Mastery Level.

 Ailaros wrote:
You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.

"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I really like the Go to Ground with Genies then use Fearless to pick them back up idea. Pretty brilliant.

I think small groups of Genies supporting Broodlords works pretty well. I think people get trapped into tunnel vision with this unit, expecting it do perform one specific task, and then are disappointed when it fails at that task. I find they work best with Biomancy, and the dictating how you are going to use them by which Bio roll you get.
   
Made in id
Fixture of Dakka




Temple Prime

Genestealers are pretty pricey for what has largely become a broodlord delivery mechanism. The nerfs to assault and outflanking didn't help either, Ymgarls are good but compete with the now ascendant Zoanthrope.

Lictors are startlingly vulnerable in this age of ignoring cover being handed out like candy, they could be used to fleshhook monsters and rear vehicle armor into submission but Zoans in a pod do that job better.

Raveners cost too much for my likig given their piss poor armor saves, though having a lot of wounds helps. The problem is that the unit is a few overcharged ion blasts away from doom. Interestingly though, a big brick of them has enough wounds to push past the autohits inflected by flamer spamming squads like Legion special weapons teams, Burnaboyz, D-scythe Guards (though distort can gib some instantly and pretty much every hit will wound), and Flamercide Chaos Termis (2 heavy flamers, rest combiflamers, sometimes with a lord with the Scalathrax flamer), or flamer suits, and still make them pay, though as warriors still get their saves against regular flamers they're better for this.

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.



 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Oh thats right. Id forgotten about the whole BS0 not being able to use witchfire powers. Now I remember why i completely stopped using stealers. That was the final nail in the coffin for them to me. Hopefully they get better in the next codex but Im pretty much done with Genestealers. Which sucks becuase i got 45 of the damn things painted up completely and even the bases are color matched to show unit identification. Got em done just in time for 6th and then kabloey they suck.

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Made in id
Fixture of Dakka




Temple Prime

Stealers need a price cut for sure, costing as much as they do while being made of paper is one of their biggest weaknesses. As is being able to do nothing offensively speaking when they outflank. Meaning they have no reliable way of getting into assault, which has helped contribute to making gants and gons pretty much the only troops ever taken.

The oher slots have the same issue, only one or two units in each are worth taking if you want to compete. HQ: Hive Tyrant or Swarmlord, primes only see action when the points are tight or for a death star, guards are pricey ablative wounds but they're basically options for the Tyrants, Mortex is fun but pricey and squishy, Gons are almost always troops. Oh and the Tyrant is always a flier with two BL devourers because not only does it shame all the other guns, it's your only source of skyfire. The Swarmlord is a death machine and when buffed is the killiest model in the game. The Malanthrope used to be amazing but was completely changed by FW and is now cheap but nothing special, shame, the Old one would have dominated challenges as an MC with 2+ poison and instant death, warp field, and psychic tomfoolery.

Troops: Gons and Gants. Hormies means less Gons and the cost goes way up if you want them to be really killy, also no spawner means you can't throw them away as lightly as Termagants. We already discussed stealers. Warriors are stuck with an armor save ignored by nearly all the heavy weapons, and a toughness that makes them easily ID'd, also they cost too much. Rippers derp themselves to death out of synapse and if someone's packing S6 or better or templates they're toast. And they don't kill much either, and only one pricey gimmicky SC spawns them while the gant is pooped out by an affordable, spammable MC that is excellent on it's own merits.

Fast attack: This is Garg territory, cheap, fast, pours on tons of wounds and got buffed by the new rules, shame about the lack of spawners. Shrikes and Raveners share the same issues already discussed, and again, cost TEQ prices for less durability against most things. Skyslashers are pricier rippers that have a harder time finding cover...ughhh. Harpies, can pour down a lot of blasts and are hard to hit, but one hit can knock them down at which point this frail MC usually bites it. In dire need of skyfire to find a place. Spore mines are terrible, but can be spawned for free by biovores, meiotic spores can be fun though.

Elites: Zoans and the Doom for very obvious reasons dominate this slot, though the return of invinciskimmers have given the Hive Guard a renaissance.Ymgarls, Lictors, and the deathleaper have already been discussed. Venomthropes got less useful due to the saves they provided getting much easier to acquire but aren't bad, just overshadowed. That burny unit that shall not be named is not just bad, it is a god damn disgrace.

Heavy support: Now we see some variety. Biovores, Trygons, Dakkafexes, and Stonecrushers. Biovores make cover camping xenos and guard armies wet themselves and making gunline guard and tau cry is a rare treat. Dakkafexes crap out vey reliable S6 shots in massive amounts and can be spammed pretty tremendously, but can run you up a pretty penny. Trygons are a great help for deep striking armies and are ruinous in assault and come with a snazzy gun, but are pricey and the loss of mutations and t7 means krak missiles will ruin you. Stonecrusher carnifexes are nearly unkillable with their better regen and 2+ saves, and AP1 makes vehicles cry, oh and they're cheap for what you get.

HS cont: Other Carnifex options cost too much for so little, and the Tyrannofex is pricey with a gun that doesn't fit it, a wannabe punisher cannon, and an ap4 baleflamer. None of it's weapons can kill MEQs, but with a 2+ save, six wounds, and reasonably priced regeneration it can be a hard nut to crack, best when buffed but it wants to be close to melee when it is terrible at melee. Old one eye costs nearly as much as the Swarmlord and is worse than literally anything else with the price tag. So much costlier than a meleefex for so little in return. Mawlocs are rather situational, and I'm not sure if they should be in the good or bad slot.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/26 14:29:01


 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.



 
   
 
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