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 FlingitNow wrote:
Why though. It does not restore models it adds them. If your adding a Lord or Cryptek where are you getting permission to upgrade them and if you can why not go all the way and give them literally everything?

Because the thread-title is "HIWPI", not "try to cheese the maximum out of an unclear rule".

 FlingitNow wrote:
Yakface you are claiming using the starting squad numbers as different things is being inconsistent yet adding models with their starting gear and then claiming they can't use 1 use items that a different model used is likewise just as inconsistent.

It's not that inconsistent. Necrolord Bob popped off his Tacheon Arrow just prior to taking a plasma cannon to his face. His internal teleporter takes his remains off to safety. The Ghost Arc speeds his repairs and puts him back on the table. The ghost ark is a Repair Barge, not an Ammo-Depot Barge, so when he comes back, he's still missing the Arrow that he popped off.

-Matt

The barge doesn't repair though it added new models. That is what the rules say it does. If you're allowing it to add court members and allowing them to have the same upgrades as any dead attached member. Then it should have the same wargear including any one use items. To do anything else is just as inconsistent as using 2 different starting number references.

 FlingitNow wrote:
The barge doesn't repair though it added new models. That is what the rules say it does. If you're allowing it to add court members and allowing them to have the same upgrades as any dead attached member. Then it should have the same wargear including any one use items. To do anything else is just as inconsistent as using 2 different starting number references.

No, the rules as written don't make any coherent sense.

No matter what argument is being made, it is under the basis of guessing how the rule is 'supposed' to be.

Adding models back to the unit is completely consistent in every regard.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Yakface you are claiming using the starting squad numbers as different things is being inconsistent yet adding models with their starting gear and then claiming they can't use 1 use items that a different model used is likewise just as inconsistent.

It's not that inconsistent. Necrolord Bob popped off his Tacheon Arrow just prior to taking a plasma cannon to his face. His internal teleporter takes his remains off to safety. The Ghost Arc speeds his repairs and puts him back on the table. The ghost ark is a Repair Barge, not an Ammo-Depot Barge, so when he comes back, he's still missing the Arrow that he popped off.

-Matt

But at no point does the Ark tell you to return models to play. It says add. Adding models would mean create new models. Compare this to the wording of RP and EL. In those ones the models are returned not added to the units/game(in regards to IC)

Example: I have a unit of 15 warriors and a cryptek with a VOD. 2 warriors and the crypetk die during my opponents turn failing their RP rolls. My ghost ark succeeds on its repair test and rolls a 6 for how many models I can add. I get to add 3 models.

Here are the possibilities

1. I add 3 necron warriors as my unit starting strength was 16 and i can "add models" up to my starting strength.

2. I add 3 necron Lychguard as my unit starting strength was 16 and i can "add models" up my starting strength.

3. I add 2 necron warriors and 1 cryptek with a VOD as my unit starting strength was 16 and I can "add models" up my starting strength.

If you stop me from doing 2 how can you justify me doing 3. 2 and 3 are the same. Repair Barge does not give you permission to "return models" that were previously in the unit only to "add models." So somewhere there is a precedent of what models can be added to a warrior unit and my argument is that its the unit entry of the back of the book.

Logically I believe the RAI only means warriors, but if we follow RAW (excluding ridiculous additions of farseers and titans) it does say to the unit.

Now, attached RC members, (and SW wolfguard) who join a unit become part of it. They can not leave, and do not count as separate units in any situation. (For example when calculating VP's or determining %50 for reserves). Therefore in game terms they are indistinguishable from the unit. Until it is FAQ'd I would say this allows them to be repaired by the barge.

The same rules can be used to determine that if an IC is killed whilst in a unit of warriors, they are NOT able to be repaired by the barge.
They are counted for reserves, award victory points, and may leave the unit at any time. By losing their last wound, they are removed from play completely. They are no longer the part of the unit.

Also, as the RAW stats that 'models' are added, as opposed to wounds, it is clear that the barge has no effect on wounded IC's who are currently part of the unit either.

Therefore: Raw - Warriors and RC members of the squad, but in no case ICs.

Warfrog wrote:

But at no point does the Ark tell you to return models to play. It says add. Adding models would mean create new models. Compare this to the wording of RP and EL. In those ones the models are returned not added to the units/game(in regards to IC)

Example: I have a unit of 15 warriors and a cryptek with a VOD. 2 warriors and the crypetk die during my opponents turn failing their RP rolls. My ghost ark succeeds on its repair test and rolls a 6 for how many models I can add. I get to add 3 models.

Here are the possibilities

1. I add 3 necron warriors as my unit starting strength was 16 and i can "add models" up to my starting strength.

2. I add 3 necron Lychguard as my unit starting strength was 16 and i can "add models" up my starting strength.

3. I add 2 necron warriors and 1 cryptek with a VOD as my unit starting strength was 16 and I can "add models" up my starting strength.

If you stop me from doing 2 how can you justify me doing 3. 2 and 3 are the same. Repair Barge does not give you permission to "return models" that were previously in the unit only to "add models." So somewhere there is a precedent of what models can be added to a warrior unit and my argument is that its the unit entry of the back of the book.

Again, we're not talking about a rule that has ANY clear logical way to be read that makes sense.

But yes, adding models to a unit could mean to add NEW models to the unit, but it can also be adding models BACK to the unit. It can absolutely be interpreted either way.


So as I've pointed out quite a few times in this thread now, if you're playing that it only allows you to 'add new' warriors, then you have a weird situation where you can add MORE warriors into the unit than it ever had. Something that makes no logical sense considering the background behind the rule.


The only way that makes logical sense and is consistent in all situations is to play that you're adding models back to the unit.

The largest point of contention now is over the wording of 'add', and if it should actually be interpreted as 'repair' or 'return' d3 units to the squad.

This would clarify the issue of RC wargear or adding additional warriors you didnt pay points for. (IMO if you are using the barge to add wargear to an RC member or adding warriors, instead of simply returning the points you paid for, then you know you are cheating.)

Something that makes no logical sense considering the background behind the rule.

But background does not equal rules. In the background of the Night Scythe it says the tesla destructor is turret mounted when the official models is hull mounted. Try using a Night Scythe with a turret conversion and see how far that goes.

I agree that it doesn't make logical sense that the Cryptek is rebuilt a warrior but as the rule goes that is best interpretation you can get otherwise prepare to see warriors being turned into Lychguard.

Warfrog wrote:

Something that makes no logical sense considering the background behind the rule.

But background does not equal rules. In the background of the Night Scythe it says the tesla destructor is turret mounted when the official models is hull mounted. Try using a Night Scythe with a turret conversion and see how far that goes.

I agree that it doesn't make logical sense that the Cryptek is rebuilt a warrior but as the rule goes that is best interpretation you can get otherwise prepare to see warriors being turned into Lychguard.

This isn't a case where I'm arguing that the background somehow trumps the rules, because that is nonsense. If the rules actually said that you could only add warriors, then everything would be clear and the small inconsistency about adding additional warriors instead of attached Royal Court members would just be a minor hiccup that we have to accept.

But the rules AREN'T clear, so yes, looking at things like background becomes necessary when attempting to guess what the rule is actually supposed to be saying.

I have presented a perfectly logical and consistent interpretation that does not suddenly allow Lychguard (or Titans) to be added into the unit.

All you have to do is assume that the interpretation is that you are adding models BACK to the unit and everything works perfectly. This means you're only allowed to add models back to the unit that were already there.

Using this interpretation, everything works, nothing breaks and it even matches the background of the unit (a repair barge).

Waaaghpower wrote:
RAW anyone including ICs. However, if I play anyone who adds a 200+ point character just to exploit that poor choice of wording, I'll dreadsock them into oblivion.

How do you figure IC's are included in RAW. Is an IC still a member of the squad when he is dead?

 yakface wrote:

This isn't a case where I'm arguing that the background somehow trumps the rules, because that is nonsense. If the rules actually said that you could only add warriors, then everything would be clear and the small inconsistency about adding additional warriors instead of attached Royal Court members would just be a minor hiccup that we have to accept.

But the rules AREN'T clear, so yes, looking at things like background becomes necessary when attempting to guess what the rule is actually supposed to be saying.

I have presented a perfectly logical and consistent interpretation that does not suddenly allow Lychguard (or Titans) to be added into the unit.

All you have to do is assume that the interpretation is that you are adding models BACK to the unit and everything works perfectly. This means you're only allowed to add models back to the unit that were already there.

Using this interpretation, everything works, nothing breaks and it even matches the background of the unit (a repair barge).

I as a count-point have provided an interpretation that does not require the assumption that words that are not written on the page are intended to be there. Add models to a warrior unit. What models can normally be part of a warrior unit? Warriors

Add models to a warrior unit. What models can normally be part of a warrior unit? Warriors

And Royal Council.

Big Blind Bill wrote:

Add models to a warrior unit. What models can normally be part of a warrior unit? Warriors

And Royal Council.

Check the Necron Warriors entry in the codex.

I could just reply "check royal council in the codex" but making a statement like this is pointless.

Can you argue with the logic and RAW in my previous post? That a RC model is not part of the unit it joins?

I agree with you, RAI should be just warriors. RAW however means RC too.

A RC member is part of the unit it joins that I agree. However in list building you cannot add the royal court member to the Warriors. Royal court members join of their own rule before battle but after you made the list. The ark does not allow you to return models only create new ones. So as far as adding models to a unit of warriors you can only add warriors.

Actually RaW means you can add d3 Imperator Titans to the unit as it simply states models. So you have to work out what the intention is because RaW is dumb...

Yeah, the RAW alternative is just stupid. There's no way they mean to allow you to add D3 Titans to the unit, or even D3 Wraiths or whatever.

But even if they changed "model" to "warrior", you could still add D3 Tyranid Warriors

I think we can skip the "you can add titans/baneblade/etc" nagging. We all know the rule is a mess.

I think the HoH rule of the Deathmarks creates a precedent regarding this issue. HoH is a rule that affects a deathmark unit and it has been faqed to affect attached RC members. Likewise a rule that affects a Warrior unit should affect attached RC members as well.

Your logic makes sense and I agree,I believe what you have said is what the authors wanted the RAI to be. However with the RAW, there is no mention of army list limitations or initiative steps at which a unit is calculated. This is where the questions about RC members, and also adding more models than the previous squad size, comes from.

RAW should be written IMO as: If a unit of warriors has had models removed due to lost wounds (Yes this would come into effect with things like JotWW), then the barge may attempt to repair the unit. Return d3 warriors to the squad. These models may not take a unit above its starting size.

However in the Current RAW we have the word models, and not warriors (Even after an FAQ). It does not state what these models should be. (despite it most obviously meaning warriors)

So with no clarification of when the unit is calculated (ie before or after RC are added), and nothing to suggest that the RC is not part of the squad. I would have to say, as it stands, the RC would legally be allowed to be 'added' to the squad again.

 The Shadow wrote:
Yeah, the RAW alternative is just stupid. There's no way they mean to allow you to add D3 Titans to the unit, or even D3 Wraiths or whatever.

But even if they changed "model" to "warrior", you could still add D3 Tyranid Warriors

Which is why my argument is that since the RAW says "nominate a necron warriors unit" you are only allowed to add models that you could add to the unit during list creation. Otherwise you get things like adding wraiths and in extreme cases titans.

The only restriction is the unit's starting size. And as has been said before, the cryptek is part of the unit's starting size for all other rules ie Morale.

Which is why my argument is that since the RAW says "nominate a necron warriors unit" you are only allowed to add models that you could add to the unit during list creation.

But a warrior squad can contain both warriors and RC models.

You are using logic in a RAW discussion. Logic here counts less than what is written.

What you have said is good logic, but at no point does it say "the unit at list creation", or alternatively "the unit after RC units have been assigned".

As there is no clarification, there is no certainty that your argument does indeed only cause warriors to be added.

Both models can be 'added' to the unit before turn 1, as supported by the codex. The barge adds models to the unit, which can consist of both warriors and RC models.

So I still believe nothing has been said yet that opposes the RAW, that would allow RC models to be returned.

The only restriction is the unit's starting size.

Ok thanks copper

Big Blind Bill wrote:
RAW, that would allow RC models to be returned.

The thing is your are not returning models but creating new ones. Compare the wording to that of RP and EL. So if you allow RC members to be added then you would be able to make a new one with new wargear.

The difference between adding and repairing here is of no consequence if you can add up to the max number of the unit.

For example, lets take a unit of 9 warriors and 1 RC member (With X wargear) It has a unit size of 9 warriors and 1RC.

This is a unit. They work together for all intends and purposes. If the RC is removed, then the squad has lost a model, it is down to unit size 9.

The barge states that you may add models up to the starting size. The starting size was 9 warriors, and 1 RC model (with X wargear). If there is no RC model now, where does it say that he cannot be added?

Big Blind Bill wrote:
The difference between adding and repairing here is of no consequence if you can add up to the max number of the unit.

For example, lets take a unit of 9 warriors and 1 RC member (With X wargear) It has a unit size of 9 warriors and 1RC.

This is a unit. They work together for all intends and purposes. If the RC is removed, then the squad has lost a model, it is down to unit size 9.

The barge states that you may add models up to the starting size. The starting size was 9 warriors, and 1 RC model (with X wargear). If there is no RC model now, where does it say that he cannot be added?

Even if we broke down unit composition to 9 warriors and 1 cryptek the unit composition or size does not specify wargear so then you could arguably add models up till you are back to 9 warriors and 1 cryptek with any wargear. So now take a vanalla cryptek and when the barge returns him it comes back with a bunch of new gear for free.A space marine sergeant with a chain sword and a space marine sergeant with a power fist are still both space marine sergeants. The reason this doesn't matter with the warriors is that they have no options aside from taking more or adding dedicated transports.

Use the Ghost ark to add more ghostarks for infinite model win button?

True, you could technically give them more wargear (unless starting size of the unit is measured in points and models)
But then again many GW rules create loopholes, discrepancies or game breaking problems. Evidence from the lack of clarification doesn't hold much weight.
It is a very poorly written rule, and does not fully support either side of this debate.

As I've said before, I agree it should be warriors only. But the current Raw just doesn't support it, Despite some problems there is nothing in the rules that would stop a cryptek from being added to a unit (but only as many as were originally added).

I'll pose this question. When you pay your pints for the warrior and the ark is the ic, or cryptec in the equation at that point.

Hiwpi.... Warriors only.

The starting size of the unit is when your pointing your army up and buying the ark to begin with.

Yes Bill we agree that RaW you can add Crypteks, or Overlords, Ghostarks, Monoliths, Pylons or even Imperator Titans if you want to. The RaW says models and puts no restriction on that. We are trying to figure out what the actual rules are and create a HYWPI that is as close to RaI as we can get.

Also you are advocating cheating because you accept the rule is one thing yet are trying to argue you can do something else because it is RaW. Deliberately breaking RaI is by definition cheating.