Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Ok this issue came up on another thread, and I want to get more peoples opinions on it.

If a stationary mortis dread (giving it skyfire and interceptor) is on the board when an enemy flyer enters play, but the flyer does not move into the dreadnoughts fire arc, then can the dreadnought still make its interceptor attack by pivoting on the spot?

The main argument here is that to intercept a unit, and therefore pivot to shoot at it, it must first have line of sight, and as dreadnoughts only draw line of sight from their weapons, then they cannot begin their pivot and interceptor attack in the first place.

BRB Walker rules say something like "when shooting a Walkers weapons, turn it towards the target." so yes, you can turn to shoot for interceptor. you don't get to turn it back after though.

Did it arrive within LOS? If not, you cannot use Interceptor

Only when you actually get to fire can you then pivot

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Did it arrive within LOS? If not, you cannot use Interceptor

Only when you actually get to fire can you then pivot

Aren't you also limited to 'in range' also? It seems to me that this would be checked at the end of the enemy movement phase, just before the interceptor weapon(s) fire, but the BRB's wording isn't quite clear. If the LOS is a requirement for the beginning of the movement, so is range. Unless, it is supposed to be checked at the end of the enemy's movement phase, then it'd be like normal shooting. However, I'm not sure which is the correct interpretation from reading the Interceptor rule.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Did it arrive within LOS? If not, you cannot use Interceptor

Only when you actually get to fire can you then pivot

Yes you must have line of sight and of course range. But is LoS only taken from the guns of the walker? If so then a walker could never pivot to fire at a target outside its fire arc, because it does not have line of sight at the start of making the interceptor move, even though it could gain line of sight by pivoting.

I'm not trying to argue this either way. At the moment, HWIPI I would think the dread should turn on the spot, if it has skyfire and interceptor in the first place, then I imagine it has the mobility to turn to track a flyer. But I'm looking for a definite answer to make sure this is ok or not.

Big Blind Bill wrote:
If so then a walker could never pivot to fire at a target outside its fire arc, because it does not have line of sight at the start of making the interceptor move, even though it could gain line of sight by pivoting.

Correct. This is how walkers have worked for at least 2 editions, if not more.

Correct me if Im wrong, isn't a walker allowed to pivot to face its target in the shooting phase?

I don't have my BRB with me atm, but I believe it does state something similar to what Acrimonious wrote:

"when shooting a Walkers weapons, turn it towards the target."

Is this not the case?

It does.

BRB 83 wrote:When firing a Walker's weapons, pivot the Walker on the spot so that its guns are aimed at the target

To shoot a weapon, you must have Line of Sight. Therefore, to pivot you must have Line of Sight with one weapon or the other.

BRB 83 wrote:
When firing a Walker's weapons, pivot the Walker on the spot so that its guns are aimed at the target

And this is different, in your opinion, from pivoting to fire using the interceptor rule, because of the wording of the 'order of sequence' in the interceptor rule?
That a walker must have LoS first before using the interceptor rule?

Sorry if this comes across as disagreeing with you, I'm not. I just want to make sure I understand that this is where your reasoning lies.

It does seem that the walker in the shooting phase also starts pivoting before it has line of sight too though, does this in no way set a precedent.

Big Blind Bill wrote:

BRB 83 wrote:
When firing a Walker's weapons, pivot the Walker on the spot so that its guns are aimed at the target

And this is different, in your opinion, from pivoting to fire using the interceptor rule, because of the wording of the 'order of sequence' in the interceptor rule?
That a walker must have LoS first before using the interceptor rule?

Sorry if this comes across as disagreeing with you, I'm not. I just want to make sure I understand that this is where your reasoning lies.

It does seem that the walker in the shooting phase also starts pivoting before it has line of sight too though, does this in no way set a precedent.

In order to pivot, you must first declare a target (otherwise, you would not be able to pivot to face said target). In order to declare a target you (usually) need LOS. Therefore, the order would be check LOS for all weapons, declare target, pivot to face the target.

Walker pivot when shooting there weapons.
There is no restriction that you can only do that in the Shooting Phase, so I voted that it can pivot and intercept.

Big Blind Bill wrote:

BRB 83 wrote:
When firing a Walker's weapons, pivot the Walker on the spot so that its guns are aimed at the target

And this is different, in your opinion, from pivoting to fire using the interceptor rule, because of the wording of the 'order of sequence' in the interceptor rule?
That a walker must have LoS first before using the interceptor rule?

Sorry if this comes across as disagreeing with you, I'm not. I just want to make sure I understand that this is where your reasoning lies.

It does seem that the walker in the shooting phase also starts pivoting before it has line of sight too though, does this in no way set a precedent.

No, you never pivot before having line of sight. I've quoted that you pivot when firing. You must (absolutely must) have line of sight prior to firing.
This is for both Interceptor and normal shooting. There's no difference in this case.

You must (absolutely must) have line of sight prior to firing.

If this the case then why include the rules about pivoting at all? There would be no need to pivot when firing, as you should have done it in the movement phase.

But this quote:

BRB 83 wrote:
When firing a Walker's weapons, pivot the Walker on the spot so that its guns are aimed at the target

Seems to suggest you move in the shooting phase to give the weapons LoS. If this is true then it would surely be possible to begin a shooting phase attack on a unit not in a dreadnought's weapons line of sight, but then pivot the model during the phase.

rigeld2 wrote:

No, you never pivot before having line of sight. I've quoted that you pivot when firing. You must (absolutely must) have line of sight prior to firing.
This is for both Interceptor and normal shooting. There's no difference in this case.

Wouldn't the sentence after the one you quoted, from the BRB 84, indicate that the range and line of sight are checked after pivoting?

Big Blind Bill wrote:

You must (absolutely must) have line of sight prior to firing.

If this the case then why include the rules about pivoting at all? There would be no need to pivot when firing, as you should have done it in the movement phase.

But this quote:

BRB 83 wrote:
When firing a Walker's weapons, pivot the Walker on the spot so that its guns are aimed at the target

Seems to suggest you move in the shooting phase to give the weapons LoS. If this is true then it would surely be possible to begin a shooting phase attack on a unit not in a dreadnought's weapons line of sight, but then pivot the model during the phase.

Because you could have LoS with one weapon but not the other, and then fire both after pivoting. Because following the shooting procedure,

Nominate a Unit -- easy, the walker.
Choose a Target -- this is where you check LoS ("If no models have line of sight, then a different target must be chosen.") and then pivot.
Check Range -- You've pivoted, so now check range with all weapons with LoS - ie both.

rigeld2 wrote:
No, you never pivot before having line of sight. I've quoted that you pivot when firing. You must (absolutely must) have line of sight prior to firing.

BRB 72: "When firing a vehicle's weapons, point them at the target and then trace line of sight from each weapons' mounting and along its barrel...".
Step 1: point weapons. Step 2: check LoS.
Before checking for LoS, you first turn the weapons in the direction of the target unit.

BRB 84: "When firing a Walker's weapons, pivot the Walker on the spot so that its guns are aimed at the target.... Line of sight is measured from the mounting point of the weapon and along its barrel, as normal for vehicles."
Step 1: pivot Walker. Step 2: check LoS.
Pivoting the Walker is the same as "pointing" another vehicle's weapons.

quirthanon wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

No, you never pivot before having line of sight. I've quoted that you pivot when firing. You must (absolutely must) have line of sight prior to firing.
This is for both Interceptor and normal shooting. There's no difference in this case.

Wouldn't the sentence after the one you quoted, from the BRB 84, indicate that the range and line of sight are checked after pivoting?

Which sentence? The one after I quoted (thanks for correcting me on the page number) is "Range is measured from the weapon itself and line of sight is measured from the mounting point of the weapon and along its barrel, as normal for vehicles." and I'm not sure how that indicates they're checked after pivoting. It doesn't indicate an order at all, just clarified how they're measured (because people mistakenly believe that you can get LoS from the head of the walker).



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
No, you never pivot before having line of sight. I've quoted that you pivot when firing. You must (absolutely must) have line of sight prior to firing.

BRB 72: "When firing a vehicle's weapons, point them at the target and then trace line of sight from each weapons' mounting and along its barrel...".
Step 1: point weapons. Step 2: check LoS.
Before checking for LoS, you first turn the weapons in the direction of the target unit.

BRB 84: "When firing a Walker's weapons, pivot the Walker on the spot so that its guns are aimed at the target.... Line of sight is measured from the mounting point of the weapon and along its barrel, as normal for vehicles."
Step 1: pivot Walker. Step 2: check LoS.
Pivoting the Walker is the same as "pointing" another vehicle's weapons.

Your quotes do not say the bolded as far as declaring a target.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
No, you never pivot before having line of sight. I've quoted that you pivot when firing. You must (absolutely must) have line of sight prior to firing.

BRB 72: "When firing a vehicle's weapons, point them at the target and then trace line of sight from each weapons' mounting and along its barrel...".
Step 1: point weapons. Step 2: check LoS.
Before checking for LoS, you first turn the weapons in the direction of the target unit.

BRB 84: "When firing a Walker's weapons, pivot the Walker on the spot so that its guns are aimed at the target.... Line of sight is measured from the mounting point of the weapon and along its barrel, as normal for vehicles."
Step 1: pivot Walker. Step 2: check LoS.
Pivoting the Walker is the same as "pointing" another vehicle's weapons.

rigeld2 wrote:
Your quotes do not say the bolded as far as declaring a target.

THAT is definitely true!
Ok, so the pivoting is only useful to get one weapon into the correct arc when another weapon already is in the correct arc of fire.


and Edit: whose Dreads can Intercept? Forgeworld?

Yes - only contemptor dreads AFAIK (and then maybe only mortis? I'm not a marine kind of guy).

I asked the original question to cover forgeworld Mortis and Contemptor Mortis dreads. Both are considered good for anti-air. But if this rule goes against them then it would drastically drop their effectiveness.

No, it just means they're not brain dead to run. Denying a section of the board is still considered anti-air because the Flyer has a no-fly zone. Shooting it down is not the only way to render a unit useless (applies to more than just Flyers).

I agree. if the rules should be played like this then it will make them require more forethought to run, but it will certainly hurt the efficiency the kheres assault cannon build.

Las or auto cannon dreads can afford stay towards the back of the board, so their 45degree fire arc is still fairly decent.

But range 24 assault cannons have got to move up the board, so they will be totally useless as interceptors if they cannot pivot. They are already limited by being unable to move to gain skyfire and intercept.

Big Blind Bill wrote:
But range 24 assault cannons have got to move up the board, so they will be totally useless as interceptors if they cannot pivot. They are already limited by being unable to move to gain skyfire and intercept.

I disagree that they'd be totally useless. Plus, I'd bet the reason they have Interceptor is to shoot at ground targets without snap shots - not so they can nuke stuff coming in.

I disagree that they'd be totally useless.

Totally useless at preventing at intercepting flyers the turn they come in then. (kheres cannons are pretty awesome against almost everything else)

Plus, I'd bet the reason they have Interceptor is to shoot at ground targets without snap shots - not so they can nuke stuff coming in.

This might have been the case before the latest FAQ, where people were confused over whether the dreads got skyfire and intercept in the opponents turn, and some people put forward the exact same idea, intercept was only used for ground targets.

But the latest FAQ stated that they have skyfire and intercept if they didn't move in your turn, until the start of your next turn, and therefore is active in your opponents turn. This to me implies that their intention was for the dread to work as AA interceptors, even if the RAW doesn't support it.

I'm inclined to believe that the RAI would let dreadnoughts pivot to intercept, though it seems the current RAW may not allow it.

I think one could just model the Dreadnought with its guns aimed slightly outward facing, thus giving a better chance of having arcs of fire that have LOS when the flyer comes in from Reserves. If the argument that 1 gun needs LOS before pivoting for Interceptor is the winning rule, then model it that way. But that seems ridiculous, that one player's Dread is modeled with cool poses aiming upward or something suffers a lack of Interceptor potential, and one shrugging with the guns out like he doesn't know what's going on would be more able to Intercept.

So I voted yes, the Dread can pivot before drawing LOS to Interceptor. Then we can pose it as we see fit and have consistency despite different poses.

Big Blind Bill wrote:

I disagree that they'd be totally useless.

Totally useless at preventing at intercepting flyers the turn they come in then. (kheres cannons are pretty awesome against almost everything else)

... Except it's not. You're dictating how a unit with limited manoeuvrability moves on the board. How is that useless?
And - assuming you go first - it's not that hard to cover a large portion of your 24" range with LoS before his Flyers come on. Seriously, the sky isn't falling here.

I'm inclined to believe that the RAI would let dreadnoughts pivot to intercept, though it seems the current RAW may not allow it.

I couldn't care less (not being a marine player) either way and would let you pivot before shooting or intercepting.

At the end of the enemy Movement
phase, a weapon with the Interceptor
special rule can be fired at any one unit
that has arrived from reserve within its
range and line of sight.

If the flyer arrived outside of line of sight, it did not arrive "from reserve within [the dreadnought's] range and line of sight, therefore you cannot fire as you haven't fulfilled the requirements of Interceptor, regardless of being able to pivot.

Tricky, but I'm siding with walkers getting their pivot. The range and LOS of a walker's weapons are determined after, not before it pivots. You can't know if the unit arrived within such until after the pivot.

 Fafnir13 wrote:
Tricky, but I'm siding with walkers getting their pivot. The range and LOS of a walker's weapons are determined after, not before it pivots. You can't know if the unit arrived within such until after the pivot.

So how are you declaring something that is out of sight as a target? You declare a target, then pivot.

"When firing a walker weapons, pivot the walker on the spot so that its guns are aimed at the target" P 84
pretty clear that you pick a target, then pivot.

*amended*

This means that you pick a target, pivot, measure range/line of sight, fire. thus, walker gets to make the shot.