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I Currently Run A Destroyer Lord With 3 Wraiths As A Mini deathstar, And read Somewhere That Changing Them Out For Some Acanthrites Would Be A Good Move. My Group Has A Small Tourney Coming Up And Thought About Trying Them Out. I Play Against Marines, blood Angels, Orks, Chaos, And Eldar. Running 500 PointS And Then 1750 After The Tourney.

I don't know what the final rules on them were, but if its the pdf I saw right after they were announced but before release, then no, wraiths are way better. It came down to short ranged guns not causing as many wounds as wraiths charging did, and it left you in rapidfire/ charge range of things that could mess you up.

They are tougher against small arms fire, and their attacks have rending and ES. They also come with stealth and a S6 melta weapon.

They are almost 50% more expensive.
Wraiths has 2 more Strength, so they win.
Acans have +1 Tougness, they also have one more wound.
Wraiths have an additional attack.
It's 3++ vs Stealth, so Wraiths win!
Acans have Entropic Strike and they get a "Melta-pistol".
Wraiths have their Wraithflight.

In my opinion Acanthrites are okay, but they have a different roll in the army.
They are an anti-AV strikeforce that can deal with light combat and survive some shooting.
Wraiths are a close combat pain in the ass.

While they are a slightly tougher, they don't have the invulnerable save that the wraiths have. Stealth, Voidblades, and a 12" melta are nice and may justify the cost difference; however, IMO wraiths are better unless your meta has a lot of armor being played.

Alright, So If I'm Going AgainstArmor Run Acanthrites, Otherwise Keep My Wraiths.

 Doncron wrote:
Alright, So If I'm Going AgainstArmor Run Acanthrites, Otherwise Keep My Wraiths.

Or lots of small arms fire. A wraith is only as hard to kill as 2 marines. It also takes only 1 lucky krak missile to kill one.

Acranhites seem like their rules still had 5e in mind. They definitely would have been terrors last edition.

Acanthrites are ludicrously OP. If your group is dumb enough to let you use them, they won't for much longer. 9 plus a D Lord is insane.

 Chumbalaya wrote:
Acanthrites are ludicrously OP. If your group is dumb enough to let you use them, they won't for much longer. 9 plus a D Lord is insane.

Really? I would rather face Acanthrites than Wraiths with my armies.
And please stop with the "Ban OP stuff"-nonsense, there are far more dangerous things to be concerned with.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Doncron wrote:
Alright, So If I'm Going AgainstArmor Run Acanthrites, Otherwise Keep My Wraiths.

Or lots of small arms fire. A wraith is only as hard to kill as 2 marines. It also takes only 1 lucky krak missile to kill one.

Well i've Had A Lot Of Luck Apparently, Because The SM Guy I Play Against Gets Pissed When I Pull Them Out. They Wipe through Almost anything They Get In Cqb With. You Are Correct On The Krak Missle Part. Last Game I Left My D. Lord And Wraiths In The Open. Got Hit With A Few Krak Missles And Took Out 2 Of The 3 Wraiths. They Still Went On To Cause Some Damage Though.

 Doncron wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Doncron wrote:
Alright, So If I'm Going AgainstArmor Run Acanthrites, Otherwise Keep My Wraiths.

Or lots of small arms fire. A wraith is only as hard to kill as 2 marines. It also takes only 1 lucky krak missile to kill one.

Well i've Had A Lot Of Luck Apparently, Because The SM Guy I Play Against Gets Pissed When I Pull Them Out. They Wipe through Almost anything They Get In Cqb With. You Are Correct On The Krak Missle Part. Last Game I Left My D. Lord And Wraiths In The Open. Got Hit With A Few Krak Missles And Took Out 2 Of The 3 Wraiths. They Still Went On To Cause Some Damage Though.

You need to stop capitalizing every word....it's obnoxious.

Chumb is correct in his assessment. Acanthrites are borderline broken. In terms of straight damage output they aren't far off from wraiths, trading S6 for S4 and rending for a voidblade, but they also get a slightly down-gunned melta-gun and entropic strike. Where they really shine is in durability. T5 and W3 with stealth is just....stupid. They are virtually unkillable at range unless your opponent has massed demolisher cannons or something.

Where a wraith has the survivabilty of 2 marines against small arms, a acanthrite has the survivability of 4+,
5.4 missiles/lascannons to kill a wraith on average, 6.4 to kill an acanthrite standing in the open, and 10.8 when they are in any sort of 5+ cover.

They are basically TWICE as hard to kill and hit every bit as hard in combat. When they get massed in units of 9, it's extremely difficult to remove them.

They are not OP. They are good, but not OP.

They are bloody expensive per model, for one thing, and fall easier to plasma than wraiths (Wraiths get 3++, Arcs get 6++. The toughness doesn't come into effect here, as the plasma wound both on 2s)

 Carnage43 wrote:

 Doncron wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Doncron wrote:
Alright, So If I'm Going AgainstArmor Run Acanthrites, Otherwise Keep My Wraiths.

Or lots of small arms fire. A wraith is only as hard to kill as 2 marines. It also takes only 1 lucky krak missile to kill one.

Well i've Had A Lot Of Luck Apparently, Because The SM Guy I Play Against Gets Pissed When I Pull Them Out. They Wipe through Almost anything They Get In Cqb With. You Are Correct On The Krak Missle Part. Last Game I Left My D. Lord And Wraiths In The Open. Got Hit With A Few Krak Missles And Took Out 2 Of The 3 Wraiths. They Still Went On To Cause Some Damage Though.

You need to stop capitalizing every word....it's obnoxious.

Chumb is correct in his assessment. Acanthrites are borderline broken. In terms of straight damage output they aren't far off from wraiths, trading S6 for S4 and rending for a voidblade, but they also get a slightly down-gunned melta-gun and entropic strike. Where they really shine is in durability. T5 and W3 with stealth is just....stupid. They are virtually unkillable at range unless your opponent has massed demolisher cannons or something.

Where a wraith has the survivabilty of 2 marines against small arms, a acanthrite has the survivability of 4+,
5.4 missiles/lascannons to kill a wraith on average, 6.4 to kill an acanthrite standing in the open, and 10.8 when they are in any sort of 5+ cover.

They are basically TWICE as hard to kill and hit every bit as hard in combat. When they get massed in units of 9, it's extremely difficult to remove them.

I'D Stop The Capitalizing If I Could. It Pisses Me Off Too.That's Just What My Phone Does. Where Do You Get The 2 Marine Thing From?

Both have T4 and a 3+ save.
But Wraiths have two wounds, so that makes them as durable as two marines.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
They are not OP. They are good, but not OP.

They are bloody expensive per model, for one thing, and fall easier to plasma than wraiths (Wraiths get 3++, Arcs get 6++. The toughness doesn't come into effect here, as the plasma wound both on 2s)

I Agree With You Here. I Deal With A Good Bit Of Plasma Most Matches. I Only Have 3 Wraiths And Was Gonna Proxy Those 3 As Acanthrites. If I Have To Run More Than that I'l forget Them. I Do Fine With 3 Wraiths. I'll Get More Of Them Before I Go Out And Buy 9 Acanthrites. I Wouldn't Be Able To Buy That Many Anyway. Haha!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kangodo wrote:
Both have T4 and a 3+ save.
But Wraiths have two wounds, so that makes them as durable as two marines.

Ok. I See Where You Can Get That. But Wraiths Also Have A 3++, Which As Far As I Know Marines Don't Have.

3++ doesnt matter against ap4 or worse, you can only take one save.

Well, I Don't Usually Worry About AP4 Or Higher.My Group Mainly Fires AP3 Or Lower At Them. Plasma, Lascannon, Sniper, etc.

Kangodo wrote:
3++ doesnt matter against ap4 or worse, you can only take one save.

Unlike marines, they still get to try to save. That makes em harder to kill in my book.

 RavenGuard55 wrote:

Kangodo wrote:
3++ doesnt matter against ap4 or worse, you can only take one save.

Unlike marines, they still get to try to save. That makes em harder to kill in my book.

Marines still get a save against AP4 and worse. Which was his point.

Against small arms fire (high AP weapons) wraiths are as tough as 2 marines. When it comes to weapons that pack a punch (plasma, rending, ect) wraiths are tougher.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Doncron wrote:
Well, I Don't Usually Worry About AP4 Or Higher.My Group Mainly Fires AP3 Or Lower At Them. Plasma, Lascannon, Sniper, etc.

Which is the worse thing you could do. Well, it makes some bit of sense to fire S8+ at them to force an instant kill, but anything lower should be directed against things like destroyers, arcanthrites, lychguard, vehicles that lost their QS, etc.

My fault, quoted the wrong post. Meant to quote the generalized statement that wraiths are durable as 2 marines. Maybe as durable as 2 LotD but not regular marines.

Well, Since Noone Can Decide, I'll Just Try 3Acanthrites In Place Of My Wraiths And Go From There.

Acanthrtes can move through terrain like wraiths still right?

if you use them carefully through terrain you can get into fun time combat pretty safely, especially with stealth giving you average 3+ save anyway (in most ruins).

cant be instant death by most things, and can rend makes them a bit more killy i feel.

give it a shot and write up a report.

Will do Desubot. Thanks For the post.

 Desubot wrote:
Acanthrtes can move through terrain like wraiths still right?

if you use them carefully through terrain you can get into fun time combat pretty safely, especially with stealth giving you average 3+ save anyway (in most ruins).

cant be instant death by most things, and can rend makes them a bit more killy i feel.

give it a shot and write up a report.

No. Acanthrites do not have the ignore cover effects that wraiths have, they are still jump infantry but you have to be careful where you land them.

 Chumbalaya wrote:
Acanthrites are ludicrously OP. If your group is dumb enough to let you use them, they won't for much longer. 9 plus a D Lord is insane.

I have a demolisher cannon, you have nine models that don't get to save against them and get ID'd.

Now you lose most of your points, in one shot.

Alternatively, I have Grey Knights, you don't get a save, enjoy instant death.

Or, I have a warboss biker with a power klaw and a lot of squishy models to punch them with.

Or, I have a warp speed Tervigon with claws and used smash.

Or, I have a Prince of Tzeentch with an exalted reward and forewarning.

Or, I have the Swarmlord with Iron arm and Warp speed, your unit is gone in two assault phases.

Or I have grimoire'd flesh hounds and now you are stuck in assault forever.

Or I have hammernators and you are still stuck in assault forever.

Or I have Wraithguard with D-Scythes and wipe your entire unit in one go.

Or I have my standard comp deathguard list, the only ground vehicles I have are IG ally artillery and rhinos. When I use daemons of nugle allies I have even fewer good targets. The rest is a sea of MCs, fliers, and nugle marked infantry.

Or I have a wraith knight, you have T5 models with no invulnerable save that can only wound on sixes.

Or I have Tau and you ragequit because I tabled your army with triple IA riptides and markerlights

Or I have Skarbrand who eats your unit and army

Shall I go on?

Acrans have a lot of counters and aren't quite as fire and forget as wraiths are, they're good but very specialized and expensive.

Yes please. Because cherrypicking situations againt a unit is really the way to show their strngths and weaknesses. Especially if half your cherrypicked situations are at the very least silly (how will a tervigon, a swarmlord, hammernators make it into assault with a jump infantry unit? magic maybe? if triple IA riptides are shooting t5 3w models with str 8 guns, instead of firing at the rest of my army, ive won already.)

Warp speed gives fleet, which means traditionally slow units can now get in your face and eat it in seconds.

If you have 9 Acs and kitted out D lord you've sunk over 500 points into a vehicle killer squad in an edition where Vehicles are rare or bubble wrapped to hell and back.

A squad with no invulnerable save at that.

If that unit is tar pitted for any reason at the very least in a 3k points game a sixth of your points is now stuck, and at smaller games it gets worse.

All a Tau player needs to tarpit Acs are the huge mobs of kroot many armies bring anyway while the tides and missilesides blow up the rest of the army.

Tyranids and Daemons have no optimal target for Acs, Monstrous creatures can smash them and the gribblies are not something you want to be tarpitted by, bring Wraiths instead.

What Acs are good against are Guard, Eldar, Ork, and Marine lists who do bring lots of ground vehicles.

Just pray the Guard player isn't fond of LRDs.

Mory silly examples. Good placement menas that 6 inch move creatures have very little chance in getting to combat with jump infantry. Movement phase is where the game happens ;-)

The above goes for tarpitting with kroot as well.

I am not arguing that aracnites are better than wraiths, I never have. I havent even said they are good.

I'm just saying that your cherrypicked examples are bad.

Arachnites' survivability is weak against flying and jump FMCs and fast tarpits. Thats pretty much it. They kill heavy inf and vehicles well. Thats what theyre good at.

If you like that outlook, then play them. If not, then dont.

But dont claim, that they are useless or op.

Btw, quick mathhammer on your Tau example.

Triple riptide with tl fusion with 6 markerlight hits per turn (hah) will kill approx 2,5 arachnites a turn provided all pieplates hit 3 bases and never roll gets hot (hah). So if youve fired your 600 pts plus markerlight units at arachintes for 2 turns for 5 dead arachnites then....

JohnnyCage wrote:
Mory silly examples. Good placement menas that 6 inch move creatures have very little chance in getting to combat with jump infantry. Movement phase is where the game happens ;-)

The above goes for tarpitting with kroot as well.

I am not arguing that aracnites are better than wraiths, I never have. I havent even said they are good.

I'm just saying that your cherrypicked examples are bad.

Arachnites' survivability is weak against flying and jump FMCs and fast tarpits. Thats pretty much it. They kill heavy inf and vehicles well. Thats what theyre good at.

If you like that outlook, then play them. If not, then dont.

But dont claim, that they are useless or op.

Btw, quick mathhammer on your Tau example.

Triple riptide with tl fusion with 6 markerlight hits per turn (hah) will kill approx 2,5 arachnites a turn provided all pieplates hit 3 bases and never roll gets hot (hah). So if youve fired your 600 pts plus markerlight units at arachintes for 2 turns for 5 dead arachnites then....

I assume you've never seen a hundred and twenty kroot layed out from board end to board end.

You want the tides, sides, and finders? You need to get through them.

God damn Tau.

While your uber expensive unit is trying to find a way through a forest of kroot the Tau are free to shoot.

I like Acs against Guard, Marines, Eldar, Mech Chaos and such, but I find them disappointing against Tyranids, Tau, Dark Eldar, and Daemons.

Orks are hit and miss depending on the list. Biker nobz? Forget it. Wagon spam? Now we're talking.

Wraiths are just more of a TAC unit. Now if I knew I was going against a siege assault vanguard list I'd spam Acs in a heartbeat.