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So they released 3 really good flyers that made everyone fear flyers and bring AA.
Then every flyer since has been a bit, well, pants.
I play Tau and wouldn't even fathom it.
1stly it's a waste of points and will be shot down as soon as it enters play (low av)
2ndly they have rubbish weapons (quantity and effect).
So with the exception of the big bad ones does anyone feel that flyers are a bit too rubbish to take?

I play DA.
Guess what my answer will be.

 thenoobbomb wrote:
I play DA.
Guess what my answer will be.

Lol. I used to play DA so i know what you mean.

On the other hand, I do play IG too..

Like most blanket statements, this is wrong. Some flyers are good, some aren't. Some players use their underpowered flyers effectively, some use their awesome ones stupidly.

So, do you wish to discuss your Tau flyer's capabilities, or just keep making sweeping generalities about the range of flyers available?

well i think it was a smart idea not to make every flyer amazing. Because then you would have nothing but flyer battles, and EVERY army would have to bring AA.

This kind of levels it out a little bit. Just like some armies have much better artillery and some armies have much better close combat characters and some armies have great psykers.

it sets up some more variation. Now I think a lot of flyers may seem terrible when you compare them to a helldrake or a vendetta.

But not all of them are very expensive points wise, and as an outflanking unit may still serve some purpose in an army.

Doom Scythes, Night Shrouds, Avengers, Nightwings, Thunderbolts, Storm talons, Flyrants, Baracuddas, Storm Ravens, Bloodthirsters, Lords of change, and winged Daemon Princes are all good.

and dakkajets, theyre good too, dont forget them

Oh and Dakkajets and Fighta bommaz.

Edit: Ninjas...

 Kain wrote:
Oh and Dakkajets and Fighta bommaz.

Edit: Ninjas...

no, just dakkajets. You wont see anyone using fighta bombaz.

So, now that we've listed almost every flyer in the game, have we concluded the OP was.poorly stated?

Boniface wrote:
I play Tau and wouldn't even fathom it.

Really? Tau Barracuda are ace! Tiger Shark AX 1-0s and Mantas in Apoc games are very strong as well.

 D6Damager wrote:

Boniface wrote:
I play Tau and wouldn't even fathom it.

Really? Tau Barracuda are ace! Tiger Shark AX 1-0s and Mantas in Apoc games are very strong as well.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
So, now that we've listed almost every flyer in the game, have we concluded the OP was.poorly stated?

Yes

There are a lot of good flyers as others have pointed out and as the OP infers, there are some mediocre ones too.

I think the big thing to note though is that not all flyers are equal in terms of effectiveness and purpose. I know a guy who loves the new Eldar Fighter (not the wraith one) because he uses it as his anti-air and anti-armor flyer. Dakkajet are decent at anti-infantry but I don't know if I would rely on them for anti-air or armor since it's only S6. Necrons....well the night scythe should cost more points.

The way I look at flyers is to not take a flyer for the sake of having a flyer...look at any strengths the flyer has and then see how that fits into the goals of your list. If it fits, cool. If not, don't take one. I'm not big into tau so I can't speak for their flyers and provide advice on them though.

Oh and tau flyers can get a 4 up invun against any gun with interceptor for tge cost of a gretchin, and what about tge DE razor wing paper armour but super versatile the only down side is no vector dancer.( at least to me).

I like forgeworld flyers - a large point investment, but you get some bang for your buck.

in my opinion, the reason theres so many crap fliers is because people gear up, and have the ability to easily do so in many situations, to deal with the 3-4 monster fliers. Now, the normal fliers that arent suppose to be a major powerhouse on their own fall over like flies to the preparations designed for the bigger fliers.

If these bigger fliers never existed, or cost an arm and a leg to field, and the hardcore air counters (Tau groups, quad guns, or mass dakka firing snaps) didnt exist, there would be more than 3-4 fliers that actually work. Its basically if you arent AV12 you arent doing anything. Only reason the Necron AV11 works is because theres SO DAMN MANY OF THEM and theyre insanely cheap.

The range of power these planes have are too wide, and the counters are designed for the high end of the spectrum. It needs to be normalized.

Ironically, the best flyers (the Vendetta and the Heldrake) were written when flyers weren't a thing and when the impact of flyers on games of 40k weren't really that extensively known, respectively. The Tau and Dark Angel flyers are pretty butt, but the Crimson Hunter isn't bad. The Stormtalon, Dakkajet, and Necron Croissant are all pretty solid too, and the Stormraven is pricey but powerful.

Didn't the helldrake come out in C: CSM a post 6th ed codex?
same as the C: DA point handicaps.

Yeah, Helldrake is post 6e. With the arguable preplanning of the Necron codex, it's the only post 6e codex with an 'overpowered' flier, though. I think the Helldrake would cause a lot less rage if the flamer was only AP4, like other heavy flamers... even though it would still slaughter anyone who isn't dang Space Marine.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Yeah, Helldrake is post 6e.

In theory maybe. Depending on how long it sat around waiting before the book was officially released it could have been designed and balanced at the end of 5th, or in 6th edition playtesting before GW had a clear idea about what they wanted to do with flyers. The Helldrake makes a lot more sense if you assume it was a 5th edition design that didn't get revised when GW decided flyers were going to be weaker, with the DA flyers being the first true 6th edition designs.

Why would you write a 6th ed codex and playtest it in 5th ed?

I find it hard to belive that CSM was written and tested before DV and not tried with 6th ed rules, especially since people keep harking on about necrons and greyknights being designed for 6th.

I find it far more likley someone thought "its supposed to be hard its a deamon" to be the explanation.

 Kain wrote:
Doom Scythes, Night Shrouds, Avengers, Nightwings, Thunderbolts, Storm talons, Flyrants, Baracuddas, Storm Ravens, Bloodthirsters, Lords of change, and winged Daemon Princes are all good.

Had to read it twice to make sure but you actually didn't list Vendettas...

 Zande4 wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Doom Scythes, Night Shrouds, Avengers, Nightwings, Thunderbolts, Storm talons, Flyrants, Baracuddas, Storm Ravens, Bloodthirsters, Lords of change, and winged Daemon Princes are all good.

Had to read it twice to make sure but you actually didn't list Vendettas...

Didn't the OP already mention them?

I would like to revise my broad statement.
I think that a large proportion of flyers have been made significantly less usable.
Not necessarily compared to the big ones.
Mostly they have av10-11 now.
Most armies can spam S4-5 weapons to some degree.
So a 10 man squad can possibly glance a 3HP flyer to death. (I know it's gonna be hardish to do).
On top of that a lot of armies have access to S7 skyfire. This can glance/pen on 3-5. They might get a 50% chance to save.
On top of that it can be 150-200 points for maybe 2-3 guns that usually get 1-2 shots each occasionally more.
This doesn't turn up until turn 2 (at the earliest) then might leave.
So if it turns up there is a chance that it dies before doing anything. It might do some damage yes but if it leaves the table it could give your opponent points.
When you compare the 'better' ones they often have higher armour rendering standard weapons useless, some troop carrying ability or some horrific weapons (quantity/quality).
Whilst I agree not all flyers should be equal I feel that a lot of them are awful

I really kind of agree with you OP. Since the big chaos turkey the flyers haven't been worth the points or money. DA, Eldar, Tau all three got just the worst selection of flyers ever. Tau can be justified because they murder things that fly with little to no care. However it just seems unfair that I am forced to take Tau allies with my Eldar just to beat back flyers because my AA is incredibly overpriced and my flyers suck. And DA are marines so while still weird they really don't need a flyer.

I stopped taking flyers for two reasons. First, ADL and things with intercept generally meant my 150 to 450 point investment was poor.

The second was simply that when they live, those points spent an average of 2 turns shooting. I can get much more effective units on the board far cheaper that will see 4 turns of action.

Mr.Church13 wrote:
I really kind of agree with you OP. Since the big chaos turkey the flyers haven't been worth the points or money. DA, Eldar, Tau all three got just the worst selection of flyers ever. Tau can be justified because they murder things that fly with little to no care. However it just seems unfair that I am forced to take Tau allies with my Eldar just to beat back flyers because my AA is incredibly overpriced and my flyers suck. And DA are marines so while still weird they really don't need a flyer.

The Eldar flyers aren't bad at all, just very focused and very fragile. The crimson hunter is very capable at taking out enemy armour and other flyers, but useless against FMC and infantry. The other one (name escapes me) I've not played against, but it seems like it would be decent against armoured infantry and MCs, but less than useless against other flyers. Both get shot down if you so much as look at them cross though, so they are best used as support units and not a main offensive crux (so spamming them won't work).

I think that is where the break down occurs between the "crappy" flyers and the OMG flyers. OMG flyers are designed as a primary offensive focus and thus work well when spammed (due to cost per damage output capabilities, lack of other decent FOC options), while the "crappy" flyers were never meant to play that role, and really are supposed to serve as a harassment or support type unit. Its no surprise that 2 of the 3 armies stuck with less than optimal flyers have enough power to never really notice their lack of air support. That last army suffers just because GW still holds on to the belief that terminators are the shiznit.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

Mr.Church13 wrote:
I really kind of agree with you OP. Since the big chaos turkey the flyers haven't been worth the points or money. DA, Eldar, Tau all three got just the worst selection of flyers ever. Tau can be justified because they murder things that fly with little to no care. However it just seems unfair that I am forced to take Tau allies with my Eldar just to beat back flyers because my AA is incredibly overpriced and my flyers suck. And DA are marines so while still weird they really don't need a flyer.

The Eldar flyers aren't bad at all, just very focused and very fragile. The crimson hunter is very capable at taking out enemy armour and other flyers, but useless against FMC and infantry. The other one (name escapes me) I've not played against, but it seems like it would be decent against armoured infantry and MCs, but less than useless against other flyers. Both get shot down if you so much as look at them cross though, so they are best used as support units and not a main offensive crux (so spamming them won't work).

I think that is where the break down occurs between the "crappy" flyers and the OMG flyers. OMG flyers are designed as a primary offensive focus and thus work well when spammed (due to cost per damage output capabilities, lack of other decent FOC options), while the "crappy" flyers were never meant to play that role, and really are supposed to serve as a harassment or support type unit. Its no surprise that 2 of the 3 armies stuck with less than optimal flyers have enough power to never really notice their lack of air support. That last army suffers just because GW still holds on to the belief that terminators are the shiznit.

Sure the hunter works against one or maybe two flyers, but when you throw FMCs at it it dies like no ones business. The Wraithfighter however is nigh on completely ueless armor 10 and has a power it cannot use untill it's been on the board for a whole turn and extremely short range weapons that dont do a whole lot that a Wraithknight can't do better. If you have to deal with multiple flyers or especially FMCs you need to look outside the codex to have any hope of hurting them because to keep flyers and Tau selling no ther things can have an advantage over flying things this edition. Not the best plan for this edition but alas its what we get till they fire Ward for writing the busted main flyer rules in the BRB and errata them away.

Mr.Church13 wrote:
Sure the hunter works against one or maybe two flyers, but when you throw FMCs at it it dies like no ones business.

That's because FMC's are not like other flyers. Something designed to hunt flying vehicles will fail miserably against an FMC due to working completely differently. They share a few properties with regular flyers, but for the most part are very different (mostly due to the fact they can switch between normal and flying movement, always have 360 degree shooting and have toughness, wounds and a save instead of an armour value and hull points).