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I played a game recently against an ork player that did this, basically he had 3 grot cannons (strength 8 ap 3) behind an Aegis line. And since the Artillery rule uses a toughness value of 7 for the unit in the BRB instead of the armor values listed in the codex, he essentially has a bunch of toughness 7 grots that he uses as meatshields to put around the cannons.

Now normally I could have easily dealt with this, except we were playing Dawn of War deployment and he placed all of them within range of the only objective, The Relic.

So, not only was I having to shoot through a 4+ cover save, but also tons of toughness 7 grots that apparently couldn't be hurt by a lasgun because their standing next to an artillery cannon.

Needless to say, it did exactly what it needed to do, wrecked a chimera after 2 turns of shooting, killed some of the units inside, and helped the rest of his army keep me away from the relic.

If this is such an effective tactic, why don't more ork players do this? Or is this part of the meta that I just haven't seen yet?

On a more general note, aside from the order "fire on my target" (which has very limited usefulness as the commander has to have LOS and be within order range) how does Guard deal with the like of enemies sitting behind an ADL?

People do this. Ork kannons are super cheap and the new rules help a lot. Kannons behind an aegis are usually run in some form of a green tide shooty list with a gun line of lootas and big guns behind an aegis, its actually not bad. I think its pretty well known and used.

You're playing Guard.

Have you considered MAB?.

Massive Artillery Bombardment.

Im assuming you were just rolling bad with the lascannons? the artillery has nothing to do with what weapons actually work it just buffs up the toughness. Lascannons should still wound on a 2+, though they dont ignore cover without one hell of an elevation advantage.

Aside from that its a very valid tactic. I bring at least 1 group of them unless im running wagons because my opponents always seem to think they have to deal with them. And unless its something crazy like a high strength barrage or a baleflamer, they take awhile to get rid of....for 60pts thats way worth it lol and those 3 S8 AP3 shots help a ton.

Technically by the way grots are placed you cant even hurt them, but most players ignore that because 1) its kinda silly since the grot is smaller than the ADL to begin with and 2) leaves the kannons wide open, since you cannot allocate wounds out of sight...and we dont want that lol. Im an ork player that fields kannons quite often (least now days now that ive learned their potential lol) and i never mention this during a game because it hurts my kannons more than helps lol. On the flipside i also dont mention it for normal grot groups, as thats a bit of an unfair advantage having a scoring unit shoot a quad gun and cant be shot back.

Did you notice how grots cant see over the wall? Cant see csant shoot.

 davou wrote:
Did you notice how grots cant see over the wall? Cant see csant shoot.

Just model one grot standing on anothers shoulders and put him in the back of the squad. Or let the Runtherd shoot. Or use Lobbas. Or use Orkbbarricade models. Or add tiny little holes on the Aegis line for the grots to see through.

Bring a manticore or two and watch as the barrage rules and Str 10 show their worth.

Because of GW's asinine LoS rules, and the players who follow them to absurd conclusions. IE

Did you notice how grots cant see over the wall? Cant see csant shoot.

Personally, I'm two for two with tournament organizers saying "feth that, they can see past", but this is the NZ meta and we're very relaxed - whereas from what I've seen the player attitudes in other countries (ie America) can get really... 'intense' about stuff like this

Waaaghpower wrote:

Just model one grot standing on anothers shoulders and put him in the back of the squad. Or let the Runtherd shoot. Or use Lobbas. Or use Orkbbarricade models. Or add tiny little holes on the Aegis line for the grots to see through.

That, my friend, is called "modelling for advantage". I expect Peregrine to be along shortly to remark on how it's the vilest form of cheating.

What you can do legally is base your Grots however the feth you like. Suck it MFA gits. Or of course, play against people who don't consider it as such.

Edit: Also, if your opponent was saying "the Grots can see over the ADL to shoot but you cannot see them behind it" then that is cheating. You can't have your cake and eat it too

Is it MFA to build the aegis line all orky? In the BRB it always refers to fire and access points on buildings as 'per model' which insinuates that you can assemble them however you want.

Its debatable, ideally any conversions are true to shape/effect... But standing one model on top of another Has gotta be against some rule!

Basically any piece of based terrain elevates a grot high enough to see over the ADL, assuming the grot is standing on the base and the ADL is not. Or when playing at GW, you often have the overpriced citadel playing field with ramps and hills to do the trick. No MFA required.

I would do this if the ork artillery werent $30 a piece.

Have you every tried ratlings?
10 sniper shots works wonders against artillery.
His toughness doesn't come into play, and you force a pinning check.

If only 2 models can see, he's got to pull those first. If you're playing where all the models can see, those sniper hits can snipe the runt herder.

36" range and infiltrate should give you a decent line of sight during deployment.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Have you every tried ratlings?
10 sniper shots works wonders against artillery.
His toughness doesn't come into play, and you force a pinning check.

If only 2 models can see, he's got to pull those first. If you're playing where all the models can see, those sniper hits can snipe the runt herder.

36" range and infiltrate should give you a decent line of sight during deployment.

-Matt

Let's see... Ten ratlings will kill an average of 2 models behind an aegis line, barely. (About 1.6). Without the line, it's 3 models. For a 100 point squad, built to kill an 88 point squad, you're not impressing me.

Waaaghpower wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Have you every tried ratlings?
10 sniper shots works wonders against artillery.
His toughness doesn't come into play, and you force a pinning check.

If only 2 models can see, he's got to pull those first. If you're playing where all the models can see, those sniper hits can snipe the runt herder.

36" range and infiltrate should give you a decent line of sight during deployment.

-Matt

Let's see... Ten ratlings will kill an average of 2 models behind an aegis line, barely. (About 1.6). Without the line, it's 3 models. For a 100 point squad, built to kill an 88 point squad, you're not impressing me.

They wont be walking off the table when that job is done. And snipers of all colors are getting mre and more useful with things like riptides, nurgle and bikers running around

Thanks for the replies guys, I did try to use my 1 manticore on the guns, but I roll a 1 for my D3 2 turns in a row, and the second time it scattered off the guns.

I have tried using a vendetta, and all that did was fry T7 grots.

I wouldn't try and tell the guy that his gak can't see over the line, I could shoot at his stuff and he could shoot mine, he was pretty nice about it.

Don't forget the pinning test for barrage and that the wounds are allocated to the closest model with cover figured from the hole.

Three LRBT with the "ignores cover" gun. That front armour 14 will laugh the kannons off.

 Dakkamite wrote:
Because of GW's asinine LoS rules, and the players who follow them to absurd conclusions. IE...

What exactly is absurd, in a system that uses true LOS, in assuming that models can't see over something that is too tall for them to see over...?

maceria wrote:
Three LRBT with the "ignores cover" gun. That front armour 14 will laugh the kannons off.

The strength of the eradicator main gun is 6, so against a toughness 7 grot it will wound on a 5. That is a waste of point IMO. The kannons will glace the russes to death before I'm able to kill both the grots and the kannons themselves.

Just use some of those cool bases that add an extra 1/2" in height.

But if people want to play the peek a boo game, switch to loobas, put your ADL on a elevated part of the board, and you're invincible

 davou wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Have you every tried ratlings?
10 sniper shots works wonders against artillery.
His toughness doesn't come into play, and you force a pinning check.

If only 2 models can see, he's got to pull those first. If you're playing where all the models can see, those sniper hits can snipe the runt herder.

36" range and infiltrate should give you a decent line of sight during deployment.

-Matt

Let's see... Ten ratlings will kill an average of 2 models behind an aegis line, barely. (About 1.6). Without the line, it's 3 models. For a 100 point squad, built to kill an 88 point squad, you're not impressing me.

They wont be walking off the table when that job is done. And snipers of all colors are getting mre and more useful with things like riptides, nurgle and bikers running around

My point is, you won't be able to get the job done. In 5 turns of shooting, assuming you take 0 casualties, you won't have wiped out the squad or even stopped it from firing its guns. You'd need three ratling squads to take out a grot artillery squad before turn 3, and that's with a little luck. (Not to mention spending 300 points to kill an 80 point unit.)

In the eternal words of the basilisk crewman from DoW 1

Shatter their sky

Not only will you ignore the Aegis completely, but you will also force a pinning test, and still wound on a 2+