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Hey guys,

I've been struggling to decide which Elite units to field for my CSM armies, I'm not really impressed by any of them. Could I have some help narrowing it down please?

Here are the units I'll be fielding most of the time, this isn't a list, I'm just giving you an idea of what I've got. Just listing to make it easier to suggest which Elites to use.

HQ: Typhus, DP, Lord MoN
Troops: PM, CSM, Cultists (Rhinos available)
Fast Attack: Heldrakes
Heavy Support: Oblits

So, the Elites.. Here is what I think of them..

Terminators: Good unit, but I don't want to use a LR. I don't like the look of them either.
Possessed: Too expensive.
Zerkers, PM, Sons, NM: Why not run them as troops with the appropriate HQ/mark?
Mutilators: I haven't proxied these yet, but I'm not impressed from the start. Old oblit design and crappy fluff...Meh.

This leads me into possibly buying a couple of Hellbrutes.
I love the look of the model(Though I'm concered they all look the same) and on paper they seem quite effective.

Could I please have your opinions on the CSM Elite choices?

Cheers =]

Bare bones terminators are extremely good investments for their points. I can see a very strong case to be made for bringing 30 of them in an army. The goal is to keep them cheap.

Hellbrutes are 'meh'. They are a problem because they want to be both assaulty and shooty and they don't do the hybrid role well.
You can give them a TL LC and ML for the same price as an imperial dread -- which is OK. Its not great.
You can also give them 2 assault weapons and just rush them forward for 100 points. 3 of those would not be bad, as they can apply pressure. They are so cheap you don't want to bother shooting at them, yet if you don't address them they will rip apart vehicles and squads without the right tools.

I like two squads of 3 terminators with combi meltas. Deep strike in, slay a vehicle or put some wounds on an MC then be annoying. If you mishap they weren't that expensive, if shot at they will take up a lot of fire that could go elsewhere, and if ignored will be a pain in the enemy's backfield.

PM are the best thing in the elite section

Terminators are very very good
Combi weapons are great
DS is great
so 3 man termicide with combi plas/melta or walking brick in foot sloggers for counter assualt
making them expensive death star is very very bad.

Noise Marines are good. Fairly cheap, fearless, str8 AP3 ignore cover blasts

Chosen are almost good. Tons of attacks and tons of special weapons. 6 guys with 5 flamers in a rhino is a surprise bbq for your opponenent. The 6 guys with 5 plasma is a surprise that will work perhaps once against a half good oppoenent.

Khorne Bezerkers are pretty meh. assault is kind of dead in 6th edition and these guys arent even that good at that with their limited delivery systems

Helbrukes are very meh. AV12 is pretty easy to ping these days and their weapons arent aweinspiring or that devistating. They cant tarpit against grenades or "our weapons are useless" They do have uses in Dinobot lists to improve armor saturation

Tsons are just terrible

Possessed are just terrible

For an armored list, Helbrute is cheap saturation. MSU Termies with a dedicated Land Raider are good but expensive saturation.

Helbrutes have been good to me so far. It all depends on saturation.
Terminators are my stars of anti-small arms fire. Sure, some times you roll five 1's in a row, but it's not gonna happen often. And with armour enough on the table, they're not going to be targeted by AT-weapons.

The problem with Helbrutes is that they're unpredictable and must shoot the last guy to shave off a hull point, which means a smart enemy can kite them all day every day. Also they're an AV12 walker in an edition where popping AV12 has never been easier.

Suicide drop termies can get rid of any one thing you want, just kit them out right. Plasmacide will melt TeQs and MeQs, Flamercide (with heavy flamers where possible) fries large blocks of infantry. Meltacide means any vehicle you dislike is now gone.

They're very cheap for 2+ save units, and with combiweapons they can play sternguard. If they still live, charge them into something for a final bout of glory, with power axes of course. With a 2+ going last shouldn't bother you and axes keep you cheap while giving AP2 and more strength.

Terminator for deep strike melta/plasma kills is a good "elite" staple.

I've had fun doing the lone-aggressive-mutilator-deep-strike-to-cause-havoc and it's been a great return on investment or a flat out "There goes 55pts of failure". It's a risk vs reward thing.

I know you don't like the look of them, but terminators are SO good. Yes, you can take 4 of them with typhus in a land raider, but that's not the only way you can run them. As mentioned, you can run them as suicide combi-melta distributors, and you can also run them in large squads either on foot or deepstrike area denial. Outside of obliterators and certain HQ choices, they're the only thing that's good in both shooting and assault. Their versatility and durability really make them shine.

As for possessed, I'd disagree that they're too expensive. You get an awful lot for what you pay for, but if you can't get the use out of all that swag, then yeah, you're overpaying. That's not possessed's fault, though.

For non-scoring god warriors, they can still be worth taking compared to marked units. Like possessed, they're more expensive, but you get more for it. MoK CSM, for example, get FC and rerolls to charge range OR fearless, while berzerkers get them both. They also get WS5. If you can't make the use out of the special rules you're paying for, then yeah, once again, go with cheaper units.

As for hellbrutes... poor, poor hellbrutes. The best I can see from them is the fact that they can tarpit the living hell out of anything with a pair of flails. Offensively, though, they overpay for too little firepower.

Footslog = terminators. Mechanized = hellbrute, for saturation. They are cheap and dont take up heavy slot.

Thanks your opinions guys.

I'm tempted to get out the GS and introduce the terminators to Nurgle.

Nurgle termies are awesome. I usually footslog 5+ across the board and if they get targeted, they soak up fire, if not, they destroy something in melee. Their performance is usually determined by my ability to roll 2+.
Dont forget to make the run move. At times it is simply a far better option than shooting a couple of bolters (night fighting comes to mind).
They are an excellent fire and forget unit, because you just pointthem in the general direction of the enemy and if they make it there you win the combat and most likely the battle.

Nurgle termies are more durable, but they're not necessarily the most durable. They do really well against lasguns, but they're only equal in durability against bolters compared to slaanesh terminators with FNP. Then the slaanesh marines do better against S5, and S6. At S7, though, you have a similar border between slaanesh and tzeentch. Slaanesh is better against autocannons, but tzeentch is better against plasma guns. From S8+, tzeentch is more durable.

Put another way, the durability spectrum vs. S of weapon goes...

3 - nurgle
4 - nurgle/slaanesh
5 - slaanesh
6 - slaanesh
7 - slaanesh/tzeentch
8 - tzeentch
9 - tzeentch
10 - tzeentch

You can see it's a pretty smooth blend. Slaanesh is generally the best for handling volume of fire, while tzeentch is better against dedicated terminator killers. Nurgle really only shines, though, at the bottom of the barrel. The MASS volume of fire from lasguns and autoguns and the like.

Or you could take khorne, wherein you take a third more casualties, but you do a third more damage, so it all evens out.

Helbrutes all the way. I have recently been running 2 of them. Both with power scourge multi melta and heavy flamer. Advance them behind a cultist squad then separate when you are within range of a juicy target. 115~ points is a bargain for this build. I swear by them...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Chosen can also be effective... Don't equip them as close combat like dark vengeance suggests, they have availability of a special weapon on every man, so 5 meltas or plasma guns riding in a rhino is a great delivery system. Hold them back to deter deep striking termies..

 Ailaros wrote:
Nurgle termies are more durable, but they're not necessarily the most durable. They do really well against lasguns, but they're only equal in durability against bolters compared to slaanesh terminators with FNP. Then the slaanesh marines do better against S5, and S6. At S7, though, you have a similar border between slaanesh and tzeentch. Slaanesh is better against autocannons, but tzeentch is better against plasma guns. From S8+, tzeentch is more durable.

Put another way, the durability spectrum vs. S of weapon goes...

3 - nurgle
4 - nurgle/slaanesh
5 - slaanesh
6 - slaanesh
7 - slaanesh/tzeentch
8 - tzeentch
9 - tzeentch
10 - tzeentch

You can see it's a pretty smooth blend. Slaanesh is generally the best for handling volume of fire, while tzeentch is better against dedicated terminator killers. Nurgle really only shines, though, at the bottom of the barrel. The MASS volume of fire from lasguns and autoguns and the like.

Or you could take khorne, wherein you take a third more casualties, but you do a third more damage, so it all evens out.

Is this factoring in the AP of weapons, or just a pure strength-based view?
Since ap2 or better is excellent at killing termies, as they generally also carry a mid-high strength punch they tend to ignore the bonus of the added toughness from the MoN.

Edit: spelling

Jonas_U wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
Nurgle termies are more durable, but they're not necessarily the most durable. They do really well against lasguns, but they're only equal in durability against bolters compared to slaanesh terminators with FNP. Then the slaanesh marines do better against S5, and S6. At S7, though, you have a similar border between slaanesh and tzeentch. Slaanesh is better against autocannons, but tzeentch is better against plasma guns. From S8+, tzeentch is more durable.

Put another way, the durability spectrum vs. S of weapon goes...

3 - nurgle
4 - nurgle/slaanesh
5 - slaanesh
6 - slaanesh
7 - slaanesh/tzeentch
8 - tzeentch
9 - tzeentch
10 - tzeentch

You can see it's a pretty smooth blend. Slaanesh is generally the best for handling volume of fire, while tzeentch is better against dedicated terminator killers. Nurgle really only shines, though, at the bottom of the barrel. The MASS volume of fire from lasguns and autoguns and the like.

Or you could take khorne, wherein you take a third more casualties, but you do a third more damage, so it all evens out.

Is this factoring in the AP of weapons, or just a pure strength-based view?
Since ap2 or better is excellent at killing termies, as they generally also carry a mid-high strength punch they tend to ignore the bonus of the added toughness from the MoN.

Edit: spelling

he must be assuming AP2 (or better) otherwise Tzeench would never be best as it provides no value. It is also assuming a T4 base so that FNP is canceled by str8. This is for terminators, on bikes, CSM or raptors the rankings are substantially different

Thanks for the clarification.
Again if what you field has a significant presence of armour on the table, then the terminators might just be targeted by bolter fire and the MoN doesn't need an icon to be effective. I still dread the days, when my icons in 5th simply got picked off and I lost my +T, A, I, or bonus Inv save.

Actually, I'm assuming that Ap more or less scales.

On the one hand, other than tau plasma and power axes, is there anything that's going to be both S6 or worse and also Ap2? Meanwhile, what do you have that's S8 or better that you're shooting at terminators that isn't Ap2 or better? Not that there aren't those weapons, but how often are terminators going to be the target of said weapons?

In any case, it's a rough guide, but it somewhat illuminates the idea that all three marks give you more durability - it just depends on what weapon types you want to be more durable against.

So, I'm going to going up against Tyranid most of the time.

S6 MCs and Zoanthropes.

Which would you suggest? =]

 Ailaros wrote:
Actually, I'm assuming that Ap more or less scales.

On the one hand, other than tau plasma and power axes, is there anything that's going to be both S6 or worse and also Ap2? Meanwhile, what do you have that's S8 or better that you're shooting at terminators that isn't Ap2 or better? Not that there aren't those weapons, but how often are terminators going to be the target of said weapons?

In any case, it's a rough guide, but it somewhat illuminates the idea that all three marks give you more durability - it just depends on what weapon types you want to be more durable against.

There is plenty of AP2 that is not str6+
Rending, shurkien weapons, liquifiers, Disintegrators, Vindicators, Incubi, Huskblades, Daemon Weapons(CSM), Daemon Lessor Rewards Weapons(CD) Dsythes...

There are a lot of str8+ weapons without AP2 but I agree, who would fire them at termiantors.

Plenty that you're actually going to see? There aren't a lot of demon weapons, vindicators, incubu and d-scythes out there. Most of the time you're going to be dealing with bolters, lascannons, and plasma guns, and their rough equivalents against shooting, and close combat weapons and powerfists and their ilk in assault.

And below S8, you're making FNP with those slaanesh terminators. I guess if you're wanting ot make the argument that tzeentch is just better because the extra ++ is better against sniper rifles and liquefiers, you could, but really, you're going to get shot at more by lasguns, shootas, and bolters.