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Hi Dakkadakka

What happens if you cannot form an complete concentric circle because forming the circle would bring a model into impassable terrain or within 1 inch of an enemy model?

A friend of says that each circle must include as many models as will fit. And since you cannot fit a model inside impassable terrain or with 1 inch of an enemy model, you must start a new circle if you cannot complete the circle.

I, on the other hand, am of the opinion that you mishap if you cannot form an entire circle because of impassable terrain or getting a model within 1 inch of an enemy model.

Ive already posted this question on another 40k forum and gotten the reply I expected. But due dilligence compels me to ask the question here as well.

You have to complete each circle before moving on to the next. If you can't complete a circle, the unit mishaps.

You mishap if you can not form a complete circle. With each models' base touching the one inside, beside and if the unit is big enough the ones outside.

agreed. you may not be "creative" and make a crescent shape or anything. it has to to be encircling the first landed model until done or a mishap.

The only circle allowed to be incomplete is the final outer circle.

Mishap.

There is not a mishap in the case of Impassible terrain because of this:

In the deep strike rules you are told to arrange the remaining models around the first model and in base contact with it to form a concentric circle.

However this line tells us that if there is not room for a model you can start a new circle: "Each circle must include as many models as will fit." (36)

If you can not place a model you have to start a new one because clearly the model will not fit in the circle.

For HIWPI I agree with Deathreaper, I've had to look this up mid-battle before and that's how we played it. However it's easy to see the counter-point - if you start the next circle early, then you haven't actually completed the circle. So for strict RAW it's a 50/50 for me and so no vote.

Disagree;
The words 'will fit' is to address the situation where you might not be able to squeeze an additional model between two others without having base's overlap. This would lead to 'incomplete' circles as the table top would be seen between some of the models so they needed to grant permission to ignore situations where the base size would create incomplete circles. I would state it was designed to try and prevent 'those **** guys' from saying you must create a completely circle with no gaps anywhere in it and then pointing out your big based models can never do that so they always mishap.

I come to this conclusion because the mishap rule states three things will cause mishaps if it applies to any model in the unit and not just the originally placed model. Two of those, impassable terrain and the board edge, would be completely irrelevant if you had permission to simply state 'the model can't fit there, so I will create a new circle.' Because they are mentioned as situations that would cause a mishap we have to keep them in consideration, instead of simply creating a situation where you can ignore that these two factors are pointed out by name as situations which cause mishaps.

JinxDragon wrote:
Disagree;
The words 'will fit' is to address the situation where you might not be able to squeeze an additional model between two others without having base's overlap.

Citation needed.

I am not seeing that situation mentioned anywhere.

Its the context - youre adding models around another model. No mention is made of terrain,just of the models.

Except that if there is impassible terrain in the way of placing the 6th model then the 5 models is "as many models as will fit." (36) and you start the next circle.

Except not, as you cannot place the model as required and so there is a mishap

I've thought of it like electron shells: the inner shell must fill completely before any electrons will start on the next shell.
If you can't fill the inner shell completely, then the atom doesn't form. (Different shells have different sizes.)
The inner circle must fill with models completely before any models will start on the next concentric circle. If you can't fill the inner circle completely, then the deep strike doesn't fit. (Different sized bases will create different amounts of models in each circle; if you mix base sizes in a single unit, there will be some small space on one ring.)

 DeathReaper wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
Disagree;
The words 'will fit' is to address the situation where you might not be able to squeeze an additional model between two others without having base's overlap.

Citation needed.

I am not seeing that situation mentioned anywhere.

Its about the only interpretation as yours is a direct violation of Raw.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Except that if there is impassible terrain in the way of placing the 6th model then the 5 models is "as many models as will fit." (36) and you start the next circle.

Nope, in that situation the model will fit in the circle... he just can't be placed because something is in the way. You can't complete the circle.

 DeathReaper wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
Disagree;
The words 'will fit' is to address the situation where you might not be able to squeeze an additional model between two others without having base's overlap.

Citation needed.

I am not seeing that situation mentioned anywhere.

It's right in the passage you've been quoting from. The models must make a circle, with as many of the units models as will fit. Not a half circle, not a three quarters circle... a whole circle. If you have not made a whole circle, you have broken the rule.

 insaniak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Except that if there is impassible terrain in the way of placing the 6th model then the 5 models is "as many models as will fit." (36) and you start the next circle.

Nope, in that situation the model will fit in the circle... he just can't be placed because something is in the way. You can't complete the circle.

If he does not fit then he can not fit in the circle when you try to put him there...

 Abandon wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
Disagree;
The words 'will fit' is to address the situation where you might not be able to squeeze an additional model between two others without having base's overlap.

Citation needed.

I am not seeing that situation mentioned anywhere.

It's right in the passage you've been quoting from. The models must make a circle, with as many of the units models as will fit. Not a half circle, not a three quarters circle... a whole circle. If you have not made a whole circle, you have broken the rule.

That interpretation leads to models that have different base sizes in the same unit always mishapping as you can never have a circle if you have a 40mm base with 25mm bases in the second ring.

P.S. the rule never says what you claim in the text that I underscored...

So, I can create a straight line with models and simply claim the line is different layers in a ring of circles?

Maybe the fact they give you permission to start a new circle when you can't fit another model to complete the inner ring is to address the multiple base sizes and other situations where you can't close the circle simply because the bases would be over lapping. After all it is found within the section of the rules telling you to go about creating these circles, making it very likely it is meant to be used in that context and not some greater manipulation of rules to come. After all it is two words found in a much larger rule-set that is telling you to do precisely do something, not something you should be evoking to ignore the same rule-set that comes later. On that note you still need to explain to me why they have impassable terrain and the board edge mentioned as causing mishaps if you can simply just claim 'doesn't fit, so I will move it over here instead....'

Besides think of it this way:
You can still physically fit in the rings of the circle in most situations, defiantly the edge of the board ones where you can even keep base to base contact. Even in cases where you wouldn't have base to base contact, you still have the model physically fitting into the circle in question and fill that part of the rule. It just happens to be an invalid placement, not one that is impossible to do but just one that isn't legal. You will still have a way to make complete circles, with only the situations where the models can not physically fit within this circle triggering a new layer. The only real issue is the fact the unit would no longer be a valid placement on the table after you have completed this physical placement.

Almost as if they had created the following mishap rule to address situations where the circle can't be created with all models in base to base contact and legally placed.

JinxDragon wrote:
So, I can create a straight line with models and simply claim the line is different layers in a ring of circles?

The rules say Concentric circle...

 DeathReaper wrote:
If he does not fit then he can not fit in the circle when you try to put him there...

He fits in the circle. He can not be placed because of an obstruction.

Otherwise, you would never mishap unless the original model lands on something. You could simply start another circle every time you hit an obstruction. Which is clearly not the intent of the rule.

Umm, if he can not be placed in the circle, he clearly does not fit in the circle.

He could fit in an unobstructed circle, but that is not what the rule says.

 insaniak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
If he does not fit then he can not fit in the circle when you try to put him there...

He fits in the circle. He can not be placed because of an obstruction.

Otherwise, you would never mishap unless the original model lands on something. You could simply start another circle every time you hit an obstruction. Which is clearly not the intent of the rule.

I think this point sums it up best, following your logic DR if my guys deepstrike too close to the enemy, I just make the best circles I can, because I can't place the models that would touch the enemy, so I just start a new circle, again and again. Never mishapping.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Umm, if he can not be placed in the circle, he clearly does not fit in the circle.

You're not making a circle, because there is something in the way. So him fitting or not is not an issue... he can not be placed.

He could fit in an unobstructed circle, but that is not what the rule says.

It is what the rule says, because the rule says that any models that can not be placed cause a mishap. This would never be an issue if you just get to ignore whatever is in the way and put the model somewhere else.

But if he can not be placed then he can not fit.

No, he can fit, perfectly fine. There is space between the other models for the base to fit

However he cannot be placed due to terrain; Not due to other models.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Abandon wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
Disagree;
The words 'will fit' is to address the situation where you might not be able to squeeze an additional model between two others without having base's overlap.

Citation needed.

I am not seeing that situation mentioned anywhere.

It's right in the passage you've been quoting from. The models must make a circle, with as many of the units models as will fit. Not a half circle, not a three quarters circle... a whole circle. If you have not made a whole circle, you have broken the rule.

That interpretation leads to models that have different base sizes in the same unit always mishapping as you can never have a circle if you have a 40mm base with 25mm bases in the second ring.

P.S. the rule never says what you claim in the text that I underscored...

For that matter, how do you make a circle out of round bases? Hmmm... It does require a basic level of abstract thought. However, I'm sure you can extrapolate the proper pattern even for non-uniform base sizes, it's not very hard.

PS: It does not have to.

It says the "as many models as will fit" to require you to maximize the number of models (since there is no requirement for the models to touch each other in the circle, just the model in the center itself). The "fit" part in no way alludes to being allowed to break the previously set out rules.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, he can fit, perfectly fine. There is space between the other models for the base to fit

However he cannot be placed due to terrain; Not due to other models.

If there is something in the way he will not fit...

 DeathReaper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, he can fit, perfectly fine. There is space between the other models for the base to fit

However he cannot be placed due to terrain; Not due to other models.

If there is something in the way he will not fit...

There is a big difference between being unable to place (due to terrain or enemy models in the way) vs not being able to fit (lack of space).

Assuming you could place the model if not for terrain or other restrictions (not related to physical space available) then that means the model CANfit, but CANNOT be placed due to a restriction, therefore you have a mishap.

 DeathReaper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, he can fit, perfectly fine. There is space between the other models for the base to fit

However he cannot be placed due to terrain; Not due to other models.

If there is something in the way he will not fit...

Youre still ignoring context

He can fit just fine, just cannot be placed. The two words are different, and have a different meaning in this context