Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I'm sorry to say this, but I've been watching this thread all day and it kind of feels like watching the world's slowest train wreck. I've been munching my popcorn quite eagerly for this one.

I guess for this kind of situation you really do just have to concentrate on the scenario. I actually lose a fair amount with my Tau army because I can't close out and grab objectives.

XenosTerminus wrote:
Let me start by stating this is first and foremost an opinion, albeit an opinion that seems to be relatively common from what I have observed both locally and online.

Let’s talk about the Armoured Battlegroup. I know I know, another posting about the ABG! There are hundreds of topics similar to these all over the internet scattered amongst countless blogs and forum postings. This in itself should be telling, but let me elaborate.

It is my opinion that the ABG is a horrendously balanced codex in a predominantly shooty edition. There are a multitude of reasons I feel this army quite literally ruins games.
The book seems to pride itself with outright ignoring a large portion of the rulebook itself. Cover saves? Nope. Objectives? Nope. Assault? Nope. Line of Sight? Nope. Having more than one wound? Nope. You name it, Tau has an answer for it. This is problematic in what should be a strategic game.

The actual amount of thought that has to go into a typical ABG player's turn is rarely more than “what should I shoot and where”. This is rarely an issue, as they have outright ridiculous ranges and firepower that doesn’t care about cover in most cases or LOS. Rinse and repeat until turn 5 and one of you has nothing on the table.

Did they shake up the meta? Absolutely, but it a terrible way. All of the seemingly ‘reliable’ ways people mention to ‘beat ABG’ rarely progress beyond anecdotal and circumstantial evidence. This typically involves specific units and lists. Since when is ‘list tailor and know what your opponent will be playing’ an acceptable solution to a strategy game? If he brings rock, you bring a piece of paper!
On the topic of matchups, ABG has no bad matchups that I can honestly think of- despite this, they outright destroy other armies (Dark Eldar, Vanilla Marines to name a few examples). Some armies simply do not have answers to what ABG can do.

I could go on, but I can summarize my point as follows: If an army wipes you off the board with very little thought or effort simply because you decided to play a pickup game with a balanced all-comers list- there is a problem.

ABG and tournament players will defend this to death and say it isn’t as bad as it seems, but when all of the ABG players I personally know literally FEEL BAD to play their army, there are issues. The ABG has been relegated to the win-more tournament army of this edition- it’s Grey Knights in 5th edition all over again.

There you go OP, I edited your first post to highlight the ridiculousness of your opinion.

I am going to try and bring a balanced view from a non-gunline Tau player.

First of all - I fething HATE Aegis defence lines. They ARE the bloody problem in 40k atm. It causes far too many armies to forget about proper deployment or using terrain as they just bring a huge piece of 4+ cover themselves and try and out shoot people from behind it. THAT'S boring to play against.

Get your Tau friends to try mech lists or ask them to play more aggressively. Actually - you probably won't want that because we are far more effective close up in my opinion. I often end up getting stuck in and pushing for rapid fire ranges on all my weapons. Be grateful he doesn't do that properly or you would be having a breakdown.

Assaulting - if he has a Riptide and you like assaulting - get him to assault you. I wiped out two LRBT, a command squad and a mortar emplacement with my Riptide last game from assaulting. (made an anti-nid list, didn't bring any fusion or rail) Get him to assault you if you are that bored with shooting. Assault is just the same as shooting you know? Just your models are touching lol.

Get them to try new units? If you're having an unpleasant time then just asking them to try new stuff is not out of order.

Try and change. One of my close 40k friends hasn't beat my Tau yet but he doesn't whine, I ask him to purposely make a great horrible list to beat me. He loves the challenge that Tau offer aside from "rush in to combat".

XenosTerminus wrote:
Not everyone has access to limitless models to craft the ultimate list to 'adjust' to ONE FREAKING BOOK. A generalist Marine list that has had no issues against literally 75% of the rest of the armies that are even in this game has nothing on Tau. It is not my tactics, lists, or unwillingness to adapt. Don't assume I am tactically inept or don't know what I am doing.

I realize I've probably spent more on my models than many others, them being metal... But the choices available to Sisters of Battle are very few. I can decide on meltagun or flamer for special weapons, then pick multimeltas, heavy flamers or heavy bolters as a "heavy" choice. Jump troops get inferno pistols (6'' range melta) or handflamers. Transports? Rhinos and Immolators which are basically Razorbacks now, with crappier weapons options. Tanks? Exorcist, 13 AV front armor and a somewhat unreliable Heavy d6 gun (S8, AP1). The only thing I have that I'd want in CC with Tau suits is St Celestine.

I've never managed a wipeout against Tau, new or old. But throwing twice the number of models at them and killing all scoring units always seems to work pretty well. I'll just have to deal with losing half the SoB on it, then keeping something alive to score while the suits jump around me until the game ends.

Edit: yes, spam... I spam enough Rhino hulls that they can't stop them all. And terrain - if you play the Tau over an open field then ofc you will have problems. Once there's enough terrain to break LOS for part of the army they're a whole lot less scary.

One last thing before we allow this thread to die.
OP you play Templars, a codex from the age of the dinosaurs vs Tau, the new hotness, it's not surprising you lose.
You can't complain you keep losing against Tau when you codex is so old.
It hasn't been balanced against this edition (or any recent one).
When your codex has been updated and you keep losing fair enough.
But it's like comparing a Nokia 3210 and a Sumsung Galaxy phone ATM.

I agree you are outclassed and by comparison the Tau codex is overpowered.

I got through 3 pages of this before I had to stop myself from entertaining this whinge-fest.

Lets be very clear here:

TAC is VERY different from your (XenosTerminus) take some of everything approach. As other more credible sources have explained, conflating TAC with Jack-of-all-trades is a huge error.

The reason Tau gets such a bad name is that it can never even delude itself into taking a JoaTrades list because its so obvious it has only one strength. This focus is its strength. You cannot outshoot Tau, and you should not be able to outshoot Tau.

You have to play to your armies strengths. If you know that your army is more assault oriented, you need to come up with a reliable method of bringing your units into assault range. Hoping they don't have the firepower to gun you down appears to be your current strategy, and one you mistakenly believe is the hallmark of a "fun" player.

There are strategies that work. If something works against Tau, it'll work against the shooty elements of any other army. If you have to make the whole list about that strategy, ,you're tailoring against shooty armies.

If you can integrate it into a list that is also capable of dealing with fliers, hordes, Psykers, super mobility, Death Stars, and armor spam, congratulations, you're more skilled than most. If you can't even do that by itself, sorry, but you're less skilled than most.

 gr1m_dan wrote:
First of all - I fething HATE Aegis defence lines. They ARE the bloody problem in 40k atm. It causes far too many armies to forget about proper deployment or using terrain as they just bring a huge piece of 4+ cover themselves and try and out shoot people from behind it. THAT'S boring to play against.

I love seeing my opponents in tournaments doing that -- they are setting themselves up for losing.

Its very difficult to take objectives when your staying in your deployment zone huddled behind a ADL.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 gr1m_dan wrote:
First of all - I fething HATE Aegis defence lines. They ARE the bloody problem in 40k atm. It causes far too many armies to forget about proper deployment or using terrain as they just bring a huge piece of 4+ cover themselves and try and out shoot people from behind it. THAT'S boring to play against.

I love seeing my opponents in tournaments doing that -- they are setting themselves up for losing.

Its very difficult to take objectives when your staying in your deployment zone huddled behind a ADL.

Well, if your scoring units die faster than your opponents, because he is behind an ADL and you aren't, then mobility quickly loses its importance. If your scoring units are dead, then you won't capture objectives. Simple as that. And at the end of the battle, the guy with the ADL just casually moves onto the objective in his table half and wins...

ok, so in retrospect I realize that I lost my cool here, so I will man up and apologize for being rude. I do appreciate the advice, I am just frustrated because my two MEQ armies, combined with the models I physically own, are seeing no success against Tau regardless of my tactics.

BT is basically a lost cause as discussed (being antiquated, and their strengths designed around 4e/assault).

Let me explain why I also believe DA has very little to combat Tau with a few exceptions:

DA's strengths, really, are Bikes and Terminators. Terminators aren't terribly competitive anymore and are generally overcosted for the firepower they bring to the table. Tau also have no issues murdering them, so I don't believe Deathwing lists are really viable.

Bikes are promising, but they suffer because Tau can just remove their cover saves and kill them easily. The PFG is nice, but can only cover so many models.

Whirlwinds are good for taking out Tau Infantry for sure, but that won't win me the game alone, especially if the Troops are in Devilfish.

I have honestly struggled with DA against most armies- the book is just so mediocre overall compared to what else has come out in 6e- it's just mint flavored vanilla marines with a few gimmicks thrown in, and has likely once again been relegated to being a test bed for the new vanilla marine book.

So really, my frustration is probably tied to the fact Tau are very good at killing Marines- 2 of my armies I have played since 4e and spent the most time building/painting/playing. It's like he doesn't even need to try to kill them. I don't know if I can counter that without buying different models to confront his weaknesses/try different strategies, but I really don't want to do that just because of Tau.

XenosTerminus wrote:
ok, so in retrospect I realize that I lost my cool here, so I will man up and apologize for being rude. I do appreciate the advice, I am just frustrated because my two MEQ armies, combined with the models I physically own, are seeing no success against Tau regardless of my tactics.

This is a good move. I'm surprised this thread even stayed open. This thread literally turned into a troll thread. I thought most of the advice given was solid. Soliciting advice on how to face a specific army, the questions cant be answered without tailoring the advice to face Tau...

Check it out, I cant beat JotWW spam SWs with my 'nids. I've just come to terms with it.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

 gr1m_dan wrote:
First of all - I fething HATE Aegis defence lines. They ARE the bloody problem in 40k atm. It causes far too many armies to forget about proper deployment or using terrain as they just bring a huge piece of 4+ cover themselves and try and out shoot people from behind it. THAT'S boring to play against.

I love seeing my opponents in tournaments doing that -- they are setting themselves up for losing.

Its very difficult to take objectives when your staying in your deployment zone huddled behind a ADL.

Well, if your scoring units die faster than your opponents, because he is behind an ADL and you aren't, then mobility quickly loses its importance. If your scoring units are dead, then you won't capture objectives. Simple as that. And at the end of the battle, the guy with the ADL just casually moves onto the objective in his table half and wins...

if you are Tau of course you markerlight the units behind the ADL and blow them off the table, i've seen it done quite regularly it depends on the mission of course. If it is emperors wil then all you have to do of course is kill a unit first and you have won, unless your oppnent feels very brave and decides to attempt an assault...

on topic...

Tau cause 'problems' and it boils down to a number of factors.

1) if the get firsts turn their 'frist strike' capacity is awesome indeed- the army combo we've bumped into (and i am going to try it out myself...): 2 hammerheads, 2 riptides, 3 broadsides etc it hits like a nuclear strike. My Tau and guard ally deployed as best we could but we got demolished...

2) riptides are a bugger to kill when used properly, they are hard to take down and the assault move is very nifty for getting yourself out of sticky situations: as i call it the 'i'm going to bugger off move

3) Players making mistakes/ bad target priority/army list howlers- here this is area dependent etc. Anecdote: When i buggered over the ace guard player at my club in my first ever Tau game, it was shocking as it was amusing despite having 3 vendettas he failed to kill my riptide despite the fact it was pummeling his army to scrap. 3 vendettas should have minced it easily but no he tried his luck on my hammerdeads and the 4+ save shenanigins bounced them off, and then they proccded to do nothing of value except target practice for my velocity tracker broadsides . The same player now hates Tau after he got wasted by turn 3 by another Tau player but had not bothered to change his list....


It will require a lot of time for palyers to deal with what the Tau can dobut as many have said they are not unbeatable...

Just my humble opinion

Man you could replaced this with "5th Edition IG"

At least Tau look cooler, I've beaten them with my CSM and they already have enough trouble with things (I don't use Heldrakes)

When i buggered over the ace guard player at my club in my first ever Tau game, it was shocking as it was amusing despite having 3 vendettas he failed to kill my riptide despite the fact it was pummeling his army to scrap. 3 vendettas should have minced it easily but no he tried his luck on my hammerdeads and the 4+ save shenanigins bounced them off, and then they proccded to do nothing of value except target practice for my velocity tracker broadsides . The same player now hates Tau after he got wasted by turn 3 by another Tau player but had not bothered to change his list....

Sounds like he didn't do target prioritization very well against an army he's yet to actually play, so his ace skills didn't exactly do him well since he failed to kill the better targets.

As a 5th edition Tau player, I remember there were bunch of match-ups which were just so one-sided for Tau to play against that it wasn't even remotely fun. For example, facing Speed Freaks or Green Tide orks was essentially auto-lose. It was so easy to get cover save for the Boyz, the Bikes had 4+ coversave (3+ when turboboost), even vehicles had cover save thanks to KFF. Non-Tau players never understood when I complained about ubiquitous cover saves: "But you have a way to remove cover, what does that matter!" They didn't realize how expensive and difficult to use Markerlights were in the old book. Then there was wound-allocation and multi-assault: if you shot say, 15 Boyz from a mob, they were removed from the back, leaving remaining 15 close to you to assault you, and multi-assault was ridiculously easy to get with a large unit. And once you did, all the Tau units involved were almost invariably wiped out for little to no loss for attacker. It was incredibly frustrating, and opponent generally needed no skill to pull that off. Just walk forward and multi-assault, game over. So in this sense, I get a good laugh when people complain how their previous, boring autowin strategies no longer work. It's funny only when it happens to other people, hm?

That said, I think current Tau codex is terribly designed. From reading both new lore and rules, it's clear than Vetock knew next to nothing about Tau before going into project. See, the old Tau didn't actually shoot that much. Instead they had plenty of gimmicks to make their shots count. They could split fire, move & shoot, enhance shooting by Markerlights etc. By contrast, new Tau is all about spamming ungodly amount of shots. It's like playing Storm of Dakka orks, who are BS5. Instead of cleverly designed rules and wargear, there are boring spammy rules like Volley Fire and boring spammy units like MissileSides, and units which poorly model the fiction, like Riptide. Couple of games I played with the new book were incredibly boring - it was just throw craploads of dice and watch enemy disappear. I actually had to hold back so that the game wouldn't be as one-sided and unfunny. It's an awful book.

Ok XenosTerminus.

I have taken the liberty of helping you with Dark Angels (as i know the army).

This is an 1850 point list (i started it last night but was tired and didn't really think long into it. It was 2am)

Dark Angels 1850 (1850pts)

Command Squad (160pts)
5x Boltgun, 5x Flamer (25pts), Frag and Krak Grenades,
Drop Pod (35pts)

Command Squad (185pts)
5x Boltgun, Frag and Krak Grenades, 5x Meltagun (50pts), Power Armour, 5x Veterans (100pts)
Drop Pod (35pts)

Belial (190pts))
Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield

Librarian (95pts)
Bolt Pistol, Force Sword, Power Field Generator (30pts)

Deathwing Knights (235pts)

Scout Squad (5) (60pts)
5x Sniper Rifle

Scout Squad (5) (60pts)
5x Sniper Rifle

Tactical Squad (10) (170pts)
Plasma Cannon (15pts), Plasmagun (15pts),

Tactical Squad (10) (195pts)
Heavy Bolter (10pts), Meltagun (10pts),
Rhino (35pts)

Devastator Squad (185pts)
4x Lascannon (80pts), Drop Pod (35pts)

Devastator Squad (150pts)
4x Lascannon (80pts)

Whirlwind (65pts)

Aegis Defense Line (100pts)
Gun emplacement with quad-gun (50pts)

I dont know how many point you play or what you have.

This is the plan.

Aegis is for AA purposes more than anything else.

So set your aegis in the middle with the tac squad with Plasma.

Put some of your devs with the librarian and take divination.

deepstrike belial and the knights within 1" of the army.

Deepstrike the 2 command squads in close and move the last few inches to be 1" away. (interceptor only happens after movement hopefully negating the pie plates)

Use the devs for sniping tanks/big threats.

Use the scouts for MC killing.

Obviously this is just a suggestion and not overly Tau focused. Feel free to take/ignore the advice as necessary.

First, I need to say this. Many people in this forum and you specifically would do well to remember that there is a difference between WAAC and competition. A competitive player is not the same as a WAAC player, in all honesty i've met more WAAC players of the "casual" variety than the competitive variety (of course that's all anecdotal, but it comes to show that they do exist). Second, what is fun to one person may not necessarily be fun to another. It is a good skill to be able to see the difference between something that is subjective and something that is objective. There is no objectively better phase of this game. You may prefer assault, or think that assault is more fun or skill-based, but you will not be able to prove such a statement because it cannot be done. It is a matter of opinion that does not deal with facts and therefore you cannot be right or wrong in it. On a similar note, what is fun to you isn't fun for everyone else. I imagine Peregrine, for example, has natural tendencies when list building that are similar to my own. My mind naturally organizes things based off of efficiency, this extends to wargaming, videogames, card games, etc. It is in my nature and FUN for me to assemble lists of the highest caliber. I also prefer to play against them. I find the games to be more challenging and engaging than playing against a "fluffy" or "fun" list. I do, however, realize that this does not extend to all players.

Advice:

BT are an old, obsolete army who will get badly beaten by Crons, Tau, Eldar, Daemons, etc... If you are going to complain about Tau, you may as well not leave Eldar out of it. Marines especially have very little hope of destroying multiple Wave Serpents + the likely to be seen Wraithknight(s). I would only play BT vs. other obsolete codices, or if you are a much better player than the other folks you face. Keep in mind you are basically playing handicapped with this army.

DA on the other hand should definitely be able to stand toe to toe with Tau, at least in a casual environment. Ravenwing are great and the mobility they offer is very useful. You can use heavy reserves to quickly close on Tau and prevent yourself from being crippled by slogging across the board. Depending on your opinion of allies, you could always ally in some extra goodies, like a Storm Raven or something along those lines. DA Whirlies, Vindicators, Predators are all good buys. I would do a partial mech build with a heavy dosing of Ravenwing and maybe a few Drop Pods (Assault squads for DA can get 3 flamers per 5 men, absolutely brutal for Xenos lists).

If you tell us what the Tau player(s) you face generally are packing, it'll give the community a better chance to help you devise a specific course of action.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

 gr1m_dan wrote:
First of all - I fething HATE Aegis defence lines. They ARE the bloody problem in 40k atm. It causes far too many armies to forget about proper deployment or using terrain as they just bring a huge piece of 4+ cover themselves and try and out shoot people from behind it. THAT'S boring to play against.

I love seeing my opponents in tournaments doing that -- they are setting themselves up for losing.

Its very difficult to take objectives when your staying in your deployment zone huddled behind a ADL.

Well, if your scoring units die faster than your opponents, because he is behind an ADL and you aren't, then mobility quickly loses its importance. If your scoring units are dead, then you won't capture objectives. Simple as that. And at the end of the battle, the guy with the ADL just casually moves onto the objective in his table half and wins...

That would be a valid point if the game had AP2 left, right and center, but it doesn't, the majority of fire in the game is S4-7 high AP values, so the cover from the Aegis never even comes into it for most units.

XenosTerminus wrote:
Let me explain why I also believe DA has very little to combat Tau with a few exceptions:

DA's strengths, really, are Bikes and Terminators. Terminators aren't terribly competitive anymore and are generally overcosted for the firepower they bring to the table. Tau also have no issues murdering them, so I don't believe Deathwing lists are really viable.

Bikes are promising, but they suffer because Tau can just remove their cover saves and kill them easily. The PFG is nice, but can only cover so many models.

Whirlwinds are good for taking out Tau Infantry for sure, but that won't win me the game alone, especially if the Troops are in Devilfish.

I have honestly struggled with DA against most armies- the book is just so mediocre overall compared to what else has come out in 6e- it's just mint flavored vanilla marines with a few gimmicks thrown in, and has likely once again been relegated to being a test bed for the new vanilla marine book.

So really, my frustration is probably tied to the fact Tau are very good at killing Marines- 2 of my armies I have played since 4e and spent the most time building/painting/playing. It's like he doesn't even need to try to kill them. I don't know if I can counter that without buying different models to confront his weaknesses/try different strategies, but I really don't want to do that just because of Tau.

The argument here is that dark angels can't beat tau because tau can remove cover from bikes? I'm sorry but this is a terrible argument that assumes the tau are running only marker lights and plasma rifles. The vast VAST majority of a Tau's shooting is going to be AP4 missile pods and AP5 pulse weaponry. If you lose 25-30 bikes before getting into CC because you don't have a cover save, then you clearly have no idea what you are doing. A 3+ armour save is still a very valuable thing to have and will make the difference more often than not. This whole argument of removing cover is very pathetic considering the vast majority of units in this game have 3+ armour. The OP and some of his supporters seem to think that all Tau weapons never scatter, are AP2 and have 30" + range.

Rail rifles are zero threat to infantry..... they just don't put out hardly any shots. Then there are plasma rifles and fusions blasters - both are single shot weapons at 24" and 18" respectively (plasma doubling at 12") - if my Tau get that close and you still haven't done any damage then you must be running a foot slogging berzerker army. Lastly we have the riptide (1/6 chance to do nothing, potential to scatter with BS3)... they aren't doing as much damage as people will have you believe. I also strongly doubt that many people are running 3 at a time. All we hear about it how the hobby is too expensive and how people have to save all year - yet magically everyone can afford to run 3 of these.

Stop pretending to play math-hammer and actually PLAY math-hammer. Those fancy Tau units aren't consistently capable of some of the feats described.

XenosTerminus wrote:
ok, so in retrospect I realize that I lost my cool here, so I will man up and apologize for being rude. I do appreciate the advice, I am just frustrated because my two MEQ armies, combined with the models I physically own, are seeing no success against Tau regardless of my tactics.

BT is basically a lost cause as discussed (being antiquated, and their strengths designed around 4e/assault).

Let me explain why I also believe DA has very little to combat Tau with a few exceptions:

DA's strengths, really, are Bikes and Terminators. Terminators aren't terribly competitive anymore and are generally overcosted for the firepower they bring to the table. Tau also have no issues murdering them, so I don't believe Deathwing lists are really viable.

Bikes are promising, but they suffer because Tau can just remove their cover saves and kill them easily. The PFG is nice, but can only cover so many models.

Whirlwinds are good for taking out Tau Infantry for sure, but that won't win me the game alone, especially if the Troops are in Devilfish.

I have honestly struggled with DA against most armies- the book is just so mediocre overall compared to what else has come out in 6e- it's just mint flavored vanilla marines with a few gimmicks thrown in, and has likely once again been relegated to being a test bed for the new vanilla marine book.

So really, my frustration is probably tied to the fact Tau are very good at killing Marines- 2 of my armies I have played since 4e and spent the most time building/painting/playing. It's like he doesn't even need to try to kill them. I don't know if I can counter that without buying different models to confront his weaknesses/try different strategies, but I really don't want to do that just because of Tau.

Dont be too scared if the guy likes to camp up inside of d-fish. They are massively expencive for the type of tank that they are.

XenosTerminus wrote:
Ha, classic. Being told that taking 'a random pile of units' is the reason I am losing against Tau.

There are a few issues here, which honestly speaks volumes about both the state of this game and the general mindset of the overly competitive players that lurk around here

So you are telling me that I can't just bring what I want within a book, that is supposedly balanced (based on points, right?) and expect to do decently? You do understand what is wrong with that statement correct? I have to bring optimized lists and only spam/take what is best to win? What a joke. People like you ruin this hobby.

Furthermore, I never even told you what the Tau player has brought. My most recent game he also took 'a random pile of units'. If his 'random pile of units' can outright destroy mine, which did in fact have a saturation of both AV and AI- what gives? It's not like I made mistakes, really. I was outshot, could not take cover, could not assault (combination of overwatch and 6e's 'random charges are hilarious' rules, and simply so much Dakka my 'amazing 3+ saves' didn't account for gak).

On the point on assault- there is a reason a lot of people lament the death of it in 6e- it is the part of a players turn that involves BOTH players rolling dice (other than your models taking saves). It is also far more dynamic than pew pew across the board, and is very visceral. It should be integral to a game of 40k, in tandem WITH shooting. 6e is a shooting gallery, and quite frankly it seems like the people that enjoy it the most are the competitive crowd. To each their own- enjoy your dumbed down experience.

You completely misunderstood my advice to you. You stated that Tau to too hard to beat, I pointed out the inherent weakness in Tau (assault) and gave advice to actually take advantage of that. You being a BT player should understand the importance of committing to an assault. Trying to play BT as "balanced" is kind of missing the point of BT in the first place. They are an assault themed army, and should be played as such if you really hope to have much success against Tau.

And no, assault isn't dead in 6th edition, its just not the auto-win it was in editions past. Its harder to pull off now, as it should be, but when the assault lands, its still every bit as effective as before.

Nowhere did I say spam OP units. I merely suggested some options. BT have access to the LRC which makes an excellent transport against Tau because most Tau builds don't take Hammerheads. Crusaders are expensive, but they get the intended job done and they are the signature tank for BT.

OK, so it look like you have a list that is a hybrid between shooting and HTH. I agree that 40K does a poor job of balancing for "points is points." Meaning that not all 1500 pt armies are equal. There is and always has been, a Rock Paper Scissors aspect to 40K. We can't change that. We an try to use it though.

So, going from my recollection of the marine models you have, this is what I would try.

1.) Don't worry so much about cover saves. As others have pointed out, you have 3+ armor. Most of the Tau volume of fire is AP4 or 5. In this case your armor is as good or better than cover.

2.) Adjust your plan. If I recall correctly (don't have BT or DA codexes) you're allowed to drop your pods empty. Use this. Let your troops slog across the board, but drop some or all of your pods as a "pod wall" to give yourself cover/total concealment. If you are facing a Tau using fireblade this will force him to move. Moving Tau don't benefit from his extra shot.

3.) Take your Whirlwind (I think you said you had one?). Park it somewhere out of LOS (if your board doesn't have any LOS blocking terrain that is one of your problems as well) and let loose. If you are shooting at firewarriors use whichever shot is best. This will cause pin checks. Most Tau are LD7, so in addition to killing some, this will eventually mean that some of them CAN'T shoot back.

4.) Overload on threats. Don't spread out your assets across the entire table. Make a concerted assault block and dedicated shooting block. Have the shooting block target the center of his line so that the flank you want to assault becomes isolated. Target that 1/3 of his line for destruction.

5.) If your whirlwind does drive him into his devilfish, then GOOD. That's less volume of fire for him to shoot you with (no Fire points?) as you cross the board.

6.) Above all do NOT panic. Don't let his overwhelming shooting let him get inside your head. Remember you WILL lose guys crossing the board, but even if he shoots down 2/3 of your assault force (which I would hope is at least 3 units) the last 1/3 should be able to beat Tau in HTH.

I hope that helps. Obviously it is not a Point and Click method of winning. There is no such thing. If you roll like crap on your armor saves, you are done no matter what.

To mitigate this, take as many bodies as you can. If you need to, drop some of the fancy equipment. Don't take 5 meltaguns in a squad if 3 will do. Don't kit out characters with 100 pts of wargear that they will never get to use. Part of the key to fighting this matchup is soaking his fire with as many bodies as possible. Take as many guys as you own.

A final note. You've briefly mentioned your armies, but what is the terrain like where you play? Is it all cover that can be shot through? Is there any LOS blocking terrain? The versions of 40K from 5th on really need 1-3 pieces of LOS blocking terrain for balance. Otherwise I see your pain since the Tau can turn it into planet bowlingball by ignoring cover.

Ghawhaar wrote:
There is a difference between Tau and other armies that can ignore cover.

Tau do so by using one unit to allow every other unit to shoot and ignore the save.

So, the OP is silly getting all defensive, it sounds like he's spent some money on what he thought was the perfect TAC list. Now, Tau crush it. So, now he's upset and doesnt want to modify anything or change anything or god forbid spend money on a hobby! I Honest feel like A LOT of FoTM whiners are just that!

Now, i quoted the above to clear something up that i hope isn't being done wrong,

Tau dont use 1 unit to remover cover for the rest of the army to shoot at. Its 2 markerlights PER squad shooting to remover cover. Without a crap ton of pathfinders or a big ass squad of marker drones its not that realistic to remove cover every time they are shooting at just about any unit. Pathfinders miss, and drones can only shoot 1 unit. Now, if i could use 2 markerlights to remove cover from a unit and then have my whole army shoot at it, while not having cover anymore, then i would agree that tau are OP. But for ever marker light shooting thats 1 gun NOT shooting. Kill the heavy hitters with all the extra guns you can get since you arent paying for magic laser pointers and you might do a little better.

A good point wolfnid, and something I had overlooked as well (not playing Tau I hope I can be forgiven ). I think some people mentally skip the phrase "for this attack" in the markerlight entry indicating that it applies only to a single unit's fire. They see the "all weapons" part of the entry and take it to mean for the rest of the turn.

XenosTerminus wrote:Ha, classic. Being told that taking 'a random pile of units' is the reason I am losing against Tau.

There are a few issues here, which honestly speaks volumes about both the state of this game and the general mindset of the overly competitive players that lurk around here
.

With respect - not really. Some people take this game quite seriously - i'd take my time listening to them, as they're the ones who have figured the game out. they dont have to be "overly competitive" - just serious about the hobby. And i can appreciate that mindset. People say "this works" for a reason. as to the "state of the game", please drop the rose tinted spectavles mate. 40k has always been a bit of a mess.

XenosTerminus wrote:

So you are telling me that I can't just bring what I want within a book, that is supposedly balanced (based on points, right?) and expect to do decently? You do understand what is wrong with that statement correct? I have to bring optimized lists and only spam/take what is best to win? What a joke. People like you ruin this hobby.
.

No need to be snarky about it mate. But yes, you cant "just bring what you want". you never could either, so please dont pretend it has ever been different. Whats wrong with the statement? Nothing, frankly. thats just how these games are designed, and there is no point pretending otherwise. For whatever reasons both good and ill, Internal and external balance has never been high on the list of GW priorities im afraid. there have always been junk in codices, and there have always been "builds". certain things work wiell in conjuction with each other, and they'll work better than a mish mash/hodge podge of codex selections.

Saying people "ruin this hobby" by pointing out the flaws and the ways to be smart within the context of those flaws -that is being quite insulting too - please drop the mock indignation and attitude. its not required. Nor is it constructive.

XenosTerminus wrote:
Furthermore, I never even told you what the Tau player has brought. My most recent game he also took 'a random pile of units'. If his 'random pile of units' can outright destroy mine, which did in fact have a saturation of both AV and AI- what gives? It's not like I made mistakes, really. I was outshot, could not take cover, could not assault (combination of overwatch and 6e's 'random charges are hilarious' rules, and simply so much Dakka my 'amazing 3+ saves' didn't account for gak).
.

what did he bring, out of curiosity?

I find it hard to believe that he is genuinely so overpowering. Tau as a codex are fine. they dont get to do all these shenanigans for free.

XenosTerminus wrote:
On the point on assault- there is a reason a lot of people lament the death of it in 6e- it is the part of a players turn that involves BOTH players rolling dice (other than your models taking saves). It is also far more dynamic than pew pew across the board, and is very visceral. It should be integral to a game of 40k, in tandem WITH shooting. 6e is a shooting gallery, and quite frankly it seems like the people that enjoy it the most are the competitive crowd. To each their own- enjoy your dumbed down experience.

I completely disagree. assault to me is "run across the table, absorb some ping, and when you get within 6" you charge apply a bazillion attacks and roll up a flank". frankly, in third and fourth it utterly dominated. you could get a first turn charge, roll up a flank and be utterly invulnerable. and you didnt have to think about it at all. saying both players get to roll dice makes it more involving is a bit of a joke - i play warmachine, where all i do in my opponents turn is remove models, and im fine with that.

i waited a long time to hear about an edition of 40k where shooting could finally stand on its own legs, and not have its damage output completely outshone by close combat. you might find cc more visceral, and cinematic, and youre entitled to that POV. i've never felt that way about it - it was always something dumb, and something to avoid-in a game with railguns and void cannons, its ridiculous that a guy with a sword does more killing. Also, calling it a "dumbed down" game smacks of arrogance and spite. i dont know if that was your intention or not - i'll give you the benefit of the doubt - but its doing you no favours.

XenosTerminus wrote:No, this is not an issue that I can't adapt or change tactics. I have no issue with that with any new books that have come out.

with respect, you're dismissing out of hand the advice people are giving.

XenosTerminus wrote:
If an army can counter essentially everything you physically own in your army- what then? If an army basically obsoletes your entire collection to the point you cannot play a game against said army, if played well.. what then?

theyre not what Vendetta IG were. They're not what nob bikers were in their era. theyre not space wolves. theyre not grey knights in their day. So no.
Does it do it for "free"? No, it doesnt. Tau have to work to pull those tricks off. they cant do it all, all the time. and ultimately, if you are sitting back and letting them do it, youvew lost the mental game and the one on the board. where are you pressuring the tau? where are you playing your own game? When an army can counter everything i do, i see it as a challenge. the fact that they can counter stuff means nothing more than the fact that theyre in the game. heaven forbif the fact that they have tools they can use to accomplish a win! this isnt 2-player tekken with no one at the other controller. Seriously, look at what you have that can counter them. tau are squishy, leadership can be iffy, a lot of their high end dakka comes on very expensive, and relatively-easy-to-kill platforms. they cant do cc, and whilst they can dish out firepower, they cant really take it, and suffer in battles of attriton.

Tau dont obselete your collection - they just have new tools, and a new updated gamebook. its time to write yours. tau in sixth are a totally new beast.

XenosTerminus wrote:
Why are you incapable of seeing this from a casual or 'fun' perspective? I don't care if I lose- I have never had as many issues with this specific army in my entire experience playing this game since 4e. There is very little I can do with the armies I own, and I have tried different lists- as has my main Tau opponent. The results are always the same.

"why are you incapable of just saying "yes" and agreeing with me". thats what that reads like. People have offered advice - good advice. believe me, things are not as bad as you make out. in any case "fun" is subjective. for me, "fun" is taking on those hard as nails lists. then again, i mainly play warmachine, so its par for the course for me.

XenosTerminus wrote:
I am not looking for people to say "well I have no issues with them, so there obviously isn't a problem!' I don't care if you are having success... you are failing to realize that for MANY people, Tau is simply not enjoyable to face.

No, you are only looking only for people to agree with you, and damn any one else with a different opinion, or a point of view that contradicts yours. Sadly, thats not how the internet works. For MANY people, tau is simplt not enjoyable to face. Fair enough - but lets be fair. for MANY people [insert army list] is not enjoyable to face. i remember playing tau against the 3.5ed chaos list - auto lose, pretty much. Now replace that with grey knights, space wolves, blood angels etc. many other people simply disagree with you, dont see any problems and enjoy a challenge. With respect, dont dismiss a counter point because its not slavishly and unquestioningly agreeing with you.

XenosTerminus wrote:
Not everyone has access to limitless models to craft the ultimate list to 'adjust' to ONE FREAKING BOOK. A generalist Marine list that has had no issues against literally 75% of the rest of the armies that are even in this game has nothing on Tau. It is not my tactics, lists, or unwillingness to adapt. Don't assume I am tactically inept or don't know what I am doing.

you dont need an absolute fortune to change. a good list against tau will have a lot of the same tools to be useful against a lot of other army types.

XenosTerminus wrote:And this is why 40k has progressively gotten worse. When a balanced list is considered bad. This is the direction this game has gone, and it is unfortunately extremely disappointing. I supposed I should have expected to get bombasted by a bunch of win-more waac players on a 40k forum. These places are, after all, generally full of self-entitled and opinionated 40-somethings who evidently have VERY different perspectives on what is fun (rolling a gak ton of dice in the shooting phase and wiping out poor 'unfocussed and terrible 40k players').
).

remember what i said about this kind of stuff not doing you any favours? your incredibly rude and uncalled for insults for the folks who post here, are without merit. and so is your belligerent and strawmanlike attack on what you think the kind of game they play is also uneccessary. 40k hasnt gotten worse - its just changed and we've gotten older and learned what it is. as to the bucket o' dice comment - thats how 40k has always been. its just now you use the dice mainly in the shooting phase, and not the assault phase.

bear in mind also what "balanced" is changes from person to person. to be "balanced" doesnt necessarily mean a composite selection of the codex with a little bit of this and that - to me, balance defines if i can deal with a variety of threats. if i can with MEQ, TEQ, vehicles etc (or the warmachine equiveland of DASH) my composition doesnt matter - my armys balance is sound.

also, drop the waac comments. waac is a completely different beast to "competitive".

XenosTerminus wrote:
So your suggestion, then, is to literally devote my entire army to ONE strategy. Ok... great. So it will be great against specific things I encounter randomly, but terrible against others.

Not necessarily - but (a) have a plan, and (b) have a focused methodology to how you play. if you're good at short ranged firepower, for example, it makes sense to focus your army on doing this, and also on getting there, rather than doing some of this, and rounding it out with things that really arent necessary. if you have good armour - you take it. if you have good speed, you use it. etc.

XenosTerminus wrote:
Rock, Paper, Scissors argument once again. You did, however, prove one of my points. Tau punishes 'unfocussed' army lists. Which is why they are not fun to play against in a casual setting. Perhaps that is all I own? Well, then there is an army that can literally guarantee a win simply because the overall game direction and balancing is to the point you have to spam the best units/make incredibly boring copy/pasted lists to win.

Not necessarily. id argue "casual" is an attiude, not an army list. tau ounishes unfocused armies doesnt invalidate casual play. it just invalidates bad play. end of story. as to autowin - its not, nor is it anywhere near to being what iron warriors were in fourth, or what grey knights were in fifth.

as to the dismissive comment about spamming the best units/copypaste army lists - you do realise 40k has been this way since third? every army has its "builds" - not just tau. this is not "new", or "unique". 40k has always been like this. every edition had its powerbuilds on the net, from craftworld eldar and BA in third - tau and eldar skimmerspam and the dreaded iron warriors in fourth, mechvet vendetta guard, longfang spam space wolves, purifier spam Grey knights in fifth etc.

XenosTerminus wrote:
Now I am starting to understand why other people, despite the games having terrible models, always suggest other games (balance).

there are a variety of reasons for this - sometimes its just to do something new. commets about "terrible models" are also highly subjective.

XenosTerminus wrote:Credibility? It's a forum for a game that involves plastic soldiers.
.

indeed. with people posting. "credibility" implies people willing to listen, and help you. and a lot of your comments have been flat out insulting and incredibly rude and dismissive, and not listening or accepting other points of view.

XenosTerminus wrote:

It seems like no matter where you turn most conversations about this game spiral out of control into opinionated pissing contests between nerds. I have no issues debating, the issue here is that most people reply with the classic 'my experience says otherwise', automatically dismissing what the other person stated is an issue for them. Either that, or they offer their 'expertise' in list building and army methodology- all very situational and not entirely helpful based on the points I raised.
.

and why is "my experience says otherwise" wrong?
and with respect, you are just as guilty of not seeing, (or not wishing to see?) things from a different perspective. people with difference experiences to you have pointed out both ways in which to improve your game, and ways in which they feel your point of view is skewed, and not seeing things as they do. experience is a funny thing. if so may other folks have said that you are not entirely correct in your assertions, then maybe it is at least partially true that there is some merit to what they say?

also if its "not helpful" then what is it that you seek? again, it feels like arant on the internet where all you wanted to hear was people agreeing with you. the fact that they dont should give you pause for thought, and maybe let you think about reevaluating your point of view?

XenosTerminus wrote:

If it matters at this point some of my most memorable games were in fact, losses. No complaints- just good times with some beers. Could care less what the outcome is, because the games were close, and most importantly fun.
.

same here. some of my favourite games were both close ones and ones where i got horribly massacred.

XenosTerminus wrote:
Ever since Tau came out (and to a lesser degree IG) I have just not enjoyed fighting them. That is largely because I, as you already pointed out, like a game with variety. Why have a codex filled with interesting unit choices and great models if you will never see 90% of them?
.

thats 40k as a whole.

XenosTerminus wrote:
Clearly I enjoy assault more than shooting, but that is not to say I dislike shooting entirely. I simply think that gunlines, or 'shooty' armies, are boring, uninspired, and often utilize some of the cheesiest rules to outright ignore some of the rules in the game. Do other people enjoy this? Definitely. I can say with relative confidence, however, that the majority of people rarely enjoy facing off against gunlines- it makes for very dull games.

Can you? Can you speak for the "majority"? Plenty people also dislike playing against assault armies.

XenosTerminus wrote:I really could care less if you take me seriously or not (my future dreams and ambitions of becoming an internet phenomenon and 40k scholar are ruined)

My main purpose was to gauge what the general populace on here thought about Tau. I think I proved my point.

proved what point? with respect, all youve done is state a point of view, and then not listen to other people at all, followed by re-stating it when people came up with counter points, arguments, and different points of view, then casually insult people. you've not proved tau are "boring", nor have you proved they are "overpowered". you've not proved they are "autowins" nor that there is "nothing you can do".

XenosTerminus wrote:
The extent of my 'solutions' can be summed up with the following:

-Don't play against the opponent
-List tailor
-Spam/optimize
-Play different armies because 40k is evidently just an overpriced and flashy version of rock paper scissors with dice

Unfortunately, none of these really solve the problem. I guess I can just play against him and let him pound me into the pavement- I don't want to tell him he can't use his army, afterall

then what does "solve your problem", if youre so unwilling to listen to people's advice? Why did you come here - what is the point? With respect, your personal experience is your experience, your meta is your meta, but these solutions to the problems you face are all valid. But dont not- use them, dont not-listen to them, and then go off and spout the same complaints again and again.

Dark angels can take 3 dev squads kitted out with lascannon (4) for 450pts, or 3 with missiles for 390, you then take 5 five man units with plasma cannons and las plas razorbacks, plus 3 more las plas razorbacks for the devs, also take 2 divination librarians.
Then sit back and out shoot the tau all day long, and that's just greenwing, deathwing can and do also eat tau, ravenwing breeze through tau.

Dark angels are more than capable with dealing with tau and any other army out there...except maybe cron air

I mop the floors with Tau when I play BT the concept of beating them is quite simple. Just take a ton of squads of 5 neophytes and 5 initiates all with BP and CCW maybe a flamer or meltagun in drop pods and then laugh at the tau since you get to stay bunkered down inside your pods for a turn then assault the next and if your entire army is in pods you have just won since the tau can do nothing in CC and struggle against mech armies. They will be unable to touch most of the pods that land then you get the alpha strike with the horde of marines clubbing baby seals in a leather sack

 Formosa wrote:
Dark angels can take 3 dev squads kitted out with lascannon (4) for 450pts, or 3 with missiles for 390, you then take 5 five man units with plasma cannons and las plas razorbacks, plus 3 more las plas razorbacks for the devs, also take 2 divination librarians.
Then sit back and out shoot the tau all day long, and that's just greenwing, deathwing can and do also eat tau, ravenwing breeze through tau.

Dark angels are more than capable with dealing with tau and any other army out there...except maybe cron air

This!!

IMHO, if you play/like one of the armies with a new dex, then stuff it! They are balanced(against each other) incredibly well from what i can tell. No the DA(and others) aren't grey knight OP. Deal with it, because the tau aren't either. Granted, they have gotten a lot better, and have been given the opportunity to throw a few more bodies around but not THAT much has changed since 4th.

Now, im sorry to all the people that have built their list around killing marines for the past decade but it looks like a wider varying era is upon us! Get used to it and adapt! Like the people that dont just whine.

 Zweischneid wrote:
Dunno. Tau ("A supposedly shooty army") doesn't pwn the shooty game in this shooty edition of 40K half as much as Space Wolves ("A supposedly choppy army") pwn the shooty game in the choppy edition.

No problem from my side of things.

Also, Heldrakes... Fix those first.

Thanks.

This. My wolves are shooty as hell, and I don't even try to get into CC about 75% of the time. If you want to charge me, GREAT! I have counterattack to mitigate that. Otherwise my grey hunters are perfectly content to rapid fire you off the board.

And yes, Heldrakes are worse. They are arguably one of, if not the, best anti-infantry units in the game. And it's hard as hell to kill.

Tau are easy. Their troops fall apart like wet cardboard. I put as many templates as possible on them and watch them evaporate. Once their scoring units are gone, you can focus on killing the big scary stuff.

I feel like the real issue here is not that Tau are overpowered; it is that some people don't like Tau (for whatever inane reason), and thus don't think Tau deserve the fighting chance which they've been given.
They're not comfortable with the thought of Tau being a vicious enemy to be taken seriously, the way the other armies are.
These are the people who really enjoyed sneering arrogantly while Tau players lost, (or if the Tau fought with flawless tactical genius, tied.)
It's as if they feel entitled to a condescending attitude toward Tau, and GW took that away from them by not only balancing the Codex, but allowing Tau to deprive them of their cheesy tactics, forcing them to fight toe-to-toe.

Every Codex requires a measure of adaptation. Knowing what an army can do is the first step in defeating it.
The Tau are as beatable as any other army... But I guess that's the problem, isn't it? "They're supposed to be MORE beatable than everyone else!"

I have no sympathy for those of this mindset.

I partially agree with Xenosterminus.

In regards to the Riptide, I'm just going to quote myself.

Although I'd already decided upon it before, my opinion that Riptides are the most broken and dumb unit in 40k at present has been reinforced. They're just ridiculous. For 200 or less points, you have an almost impossible to kill unit that does absolutely everything. High strength, AP2 pie plates? Yeah. Melta gun for heavy AT? Yeah. Effective AA? Yeah. Nightfighting? Range? Whats that? Oh, you're going to plan to shoot from a distance/assault me? I get a 2D6 jump pack move, so screw you.

12 Lascannon shots at BS4 (aka taking 3 Devastator squads fully tooled up with them) results in an average 4.444 (possibly plus a bit) wounds against a Riptide in each shooting phase. Bearing in mind this thing has a 72'' range and massive height, can jump on buildings and jump down to get LOS on anywhere on the board and abuse cover saves, AND the fact my calculations take into account that the Riptide hasn't gone for the 3++ (in which case, 2.222 wounds) you are basically boned using Devastators. You'll fire once, then he'll drop a pie plate on one of your Devastator squads, and if you even suffer 2 deaths (which is pretty likely), your wound output goes down to 3.704 average. You need to kill these things fast. If he has two, or even three, what the hell are you going to do?

You just devoted the entirety of your 450 point fire support reserves to wounding one 185 point model. Well done.

The only solution I can think of is drop podding Company Vets/equivalents with 10 Combi Plasmas, hoping you get within range and that he hasn't bubble wrapped. If you rapid fire all of them, you've got 5.926 average wounds, or average dead. On the other hand, you now have a 300+ pt squad of 2 attack Tactical Marines that are worthless at anything else, that will inevitably meet the bad end of a metric ton of pulse rifle shots. The fact that you're almost paying double the price of the Riptide just to remove a sub 200 pt model is ridiculous.

You can't ignore it. It can shoot at you 99% of the time, with a S8 AP2 pie plate that will obliterate your infantry. Unless your opponent is a complete idiot you will never charge it, because a competent player will abuse its movement+2D6 (or if he NR's, 3D6) jump to put him miles away from your assault units, if he doesn't already have a bubble wrap. He'll probably be on the other side of the table.

They invalidate Space Marine mechanized armies. You want to know what my 40 Marines in my Dark Angel army would do if they all rapid fired at 12'' at a Riptide?

With the bolters, average 2 wounds.
With the plasma guns, average 2.37 wounds.

You are never, ever, ever, going to get 40 Marines within rapid fire range of a Riptide owned by a competent player. Even if you do you won't kill it in one turn on average, and then that Riptide and the rest of his army is going to either be A) Sitting on or taking the objectives or B) Massacring you with fire.

When I look at my IG, Marines and Ork Codexes, I have to think, 'man, how am I going to set this army up? where's the killy stuff? how do I do W,X and Y without sacrificing Z?'

Usually, that's 'how do I kill tanks, how do I kill MC's, how do I kill flyers, without sacrificing scoring capability too much or list structure/reliability?'

A Tau player can start his list by going 'Oh, this Riptide can have a Velocity tracker, and handle everything. In fact, lets have two. Scoring units, damn. Oh, I know, Fire Warriors, they can start shooting effective fire from turn 1, and they're 54 points starting price. Easy. '

And the most important question, the entire reason for playing the hobby in the first place:

I do not find it fun in the slightest to play someone who can wipe me off the board while I barely get to scratch most of his army. If that's the case, whats the point of unpacking your models?


This is a legitimate concern. I praise Xenosterminus for having the balls to do this because I knew there would be people with delusional happy cookie-cutter images of 40k trying to tear this up before I even entered the thread.

 Archonate wrote:
I feel like the real issue here is not that Tau are overpowered; it is that some people don't like Tau (for whatever inane reason), and thus don't think Tau deserve the fighting chance which they've been given.
They're not comfortable with the thought of Tau being a vicious enemy to be taken seriously, the way the other armies are.
These are the people who really enjoyed sneering arrogantly while Tau players lost, (or if the Tau fought with flawless tactical genius, tied.)
It's as if they feel entitled to a condescending attitude toward Tau, and GW took that away from them by not only balancing the Codex, but allowing Tau to deprive them of their cheesy tactics, forcing them to fight toe-to-toe.

Every Codex requires a measure of adaptation. Knowing what an army can do is the first step in defeating it.
The Tau are as beatable as any other army... But I guess that's the problem, isn't it? "They're supposed to be MORE beatable than everyone else!"

I have no sympathy for those of this mindset.

I think there is something to this. That whole "young race" thing tends to get some people to think Tau shouldn't have the level of power they do.

Unfortunately, from what I've personally seen, a lot of the Tau hate stems from all the new Tau players who jumped on board the Commie-wagon once they found out how powerful certain builds were. All these players tend to use the same optimized lists containing multiple riptides and broadside units (normally maxed missile-sides). And even that's not the real issue, its the fact that many of these players, being new to Tau, tend to just castle up and shout, "COME AT ME BRO!" While its certainly a valid strategy, its not particularly fun to essentially only have only one side actually doing anything other than rolling dice. Castle-Tau are just boring as feth to play against, but mobile Tau are an entirely different experience, one that I'll gladly play against with either of my armies.