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In regards to the Riptide, I'm just going to quote myself.
Spoiler:
Although I'd already decided upon it before, my opinion that Riptides are the most broken and dumb unit in 40k at present has been reinforced. They're just ridiculous. For 200 or less points, you have an almost impossible to kill unit that does absolutely everything. High strength, AP2 pie plates? Yeah. Melta gun for heavy AT? Yeah. Effective AA? Yeah. Nightfighting? Range? Whats that? Oh, you're going to plan to shoot from a distance/assault me? I get a 2D6 jump pack move, so screw you.
12 Lascannon shots at BS4 (aka taking 3 Devastator squads fully tooled up with them) results in an average 4.444 (possibly plus a bit) wounds against a Riptide in each shooting phase. Bearing in mind this thing has a 72'' range and massive height, can jump on buildings and jump down to get LOS on anywhere on the board and abuse cover saves, AND the fact my calculations take into account that the Riptide hasn't gone for the 3++ (in which case, 2.222 wounds) you are basically boned using Devastators. You'll fire once, then he'll drop a pie plate on one of your Devastator squads, and if you even suffer 2 deaths (which is pretty likely), your wound output goes down to 3.704 average. You need to kill these things fast. If he has two, or even three, what the hell are you going to do?
You just devoted the entirety of your 450 point fire support reserves to wounding one 185 point model. Well done.
The only solution I can think of is drop podding Company Vets/equivalents with 10 Combi Plasmas, hoping you get within range and that he hasn't bubble wrapped. If you rapid fire all of them, you've got 5.926 average wounds, or average dead. On the other hand, you now have a 300+ pt squad of 2 attack Tactical Marines that are worthless at anything else, that will inevitably meet the bad end of a metric ton of pulse rifle shots. The fact that you're almost paying double the price of the Riptide just to remove a sub 200 pt model is ridiculous.
You can't ignore it. It can shoot at you 99% of the time, with a S8 AP2 pie plate that will obliterate your infantry. Unless your opponent is a complete idiot you will never charge it, because a competent player will abuse its movement+2D6 (or if he NR's, 3D6) jump to put him miles away from your assault units, if he doesn't already have a bubble wrap. He'll probably be on the other side of the table.
They invalidate Space Marine mechanized armies. You want to know what my 40 Marines in my Dark Angel army would do if they all rapid fired at 12'' at a Riptide?
With the bolters, average 2 wounds.
With the plasma guns, average 2.37 wounds.
You are never, ever, ever, going to get 40 Marines within rapid fire range of a Riptide owned by a competent player. Even if you do you won't kill it in one turn on average.
When I look at my IG, Marines and Ork Codexes, I have to think, 'man, how am I going to set this army up? where's the killy stuff? how do I do W,X and Y without sacrificing Z?'
Usually, that's 'how do I kill tanks, how do I kill MC's, how do I kill flyers, without sacrificing scoring capability too much or list structure/reliability?'
A Tau player can start his list by going 'Oh, this Riptide can have a Velocity tracker, and handle everything. In fact, lets have two. Scoring units, damn. Oh, I know, Fire Warriors, they can start shooting effective fire from turn 1, and they're 54 points starting price. Easy. '
This is a legitimate concern. I praise Xenosterminus for having the balls to do this because I knew there would be people with delusional happy cookie-cutter images of 40k trying to tear this up before I even entered the thread.
I do understand that the potential for the Riptide is pretty high. That potential however has an associated price to achieve.
The weapon still gets hot, which can cost it firing it's main weapon for the turn, or in other words it can fire 83% of the time.
If it fires it has 66% to scatter.
If it scatters it has about a 60% chance to veer off target by 3+" in any direction, which can be effective if the targeted opponent spreads units out.
This is generally minimized by taking markerlights, usually by pathfinders or expensive HQ combinations. I generally have a problem with marine players saying how they aren't getting enough saves when the save is usually removed thanks to a T3 5+ unit that has to sit outside of a tank and is vulnerable to everything ever.
The Nova charge also forces them to risk a few extra wounds or they can take some expensive upgrades to try and mitigate this.
It's not terribly priced for the amount of damage it deals, but I wouldn't say it's broken in anyways. It's not as especially good against flyers or heavier vehicles since the HBC isn't the weapon of choice, and even when that option is taken its usually with a commander to give it tank hunter to really be effective.
I've faced down too many T8+ FMC with iron arm and other psychic powers to really feel anything is broken at this point.
On to the original issue. Tau units are still as vulnerable as ever. Yes they can hide thanks to JSJ, but LOS blocking terrain shouldn't be so heavy that it can completely stop a player from shooting at an enemy. Tau troops are still extremely vulnerable to just being shot at by anything. Deepstriking/outflanking still works just fine. The only weapon to really fear on Interceptor still scatters normally and doesn't allow cover. I've outflanked units right next to an enemy and let him scatter onto friendlys. It doesn't really completely remove that aspect, you just have to work around it instead of plodding straight through. Crisis/Broadside suits are still susceptible to the same kind of weapons they were before, and I can remember getting beaten down by several missile spam and Psyfleman dread spam lists in the past that completely decimated most of my heavy firepower. The tanks are cheaper, but actually less manueverable and defended than before thanks to loss of multi-tracker and the raise in cost and nerf of D. pods.
What really changed? A lot actually. One thing that didn't change though was the Tau being able to field a lot of AP2 weapons and the ability to ignore cover. Before it was a joke because it was so ungodly hard to actually remove it entirely. Most of the lists I've seen actually had people trying to remove markers from their list entirely (except tetras) because it wasn't cost effective. Now that the ability is actually able to be used people say it makes the Tau broken or not fun. It's hilarious to me because every time I tried to explain the limitations of the 4th ed Tau to marine players they'd laugh and just say how I have such insane access to AP2 weapons and removing cover. To me, this is more Karma than anything else.
I'm expecting an Imperial Knights supplement dedicated to GW's loyalist apologetics. Codex: White Knights "In the grim dark future, everything is fine."
"The argument is that we have to do this or we will, bit by bit,
lose everything that we hold dear, everything that keeps the business going. Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky."
-Tom Kirby
I don't think Tau are overpowered, but I think the people playing older and underpowered books and struggling against Tau have legitimate reasons to be upset. Not every book has been updated yet so it's expected for problems to arise. If only all books were as well-written as Tau.
The only things that make me frown with Tau are Librarian Farsight bombs and triple Riptide at 1000 points and under, but plenty of other armies can field incredible deathstars and outmuscle you at low points value as well, and at least Tau take huge risks for playing those kinds of builds.
I think it's fortifications and allies and playing older books that are the real problem, not Tau.
Did they shake up the meta? Absolutely, but it a terrible way. All of the seemingly ‘reliable’ ways people mention to ‘beat Tau’ rarely progress beyond anecdotal and circumstantial evidence.
Losing the auto-win button against Tau hasn't shaken up the meta, as tournaments show.
I've seen Demon players kick the ever lovin crap out of Tau armies that bring all the toys.
Clearly some people are going to be a bit...entrenched ....one some of these topics.
I have to say, instead of looking at the strengthes of the tau (or ANY CODEX) instead look at the weaknesses ....
If you fear the riptide, already won he has.
And yes, silly yoda-esque prose aside....read the statline...then read it again...and remember, you don't have to KILL a riptide...you just have to make it useless...
The key to beating tau (an why I have never lost to them) it to not fight their strengths....but their weaknesses.
Now, barring that...I think I am gonna go back to painting minis and watching star wars.
DavePak
"Remember, in life, the only thing you absolutely control is your own attitude - do not squander that power."
Fully Painted armies:
TAU: 10k Nids: 9600 Marines: 4000 Crons: 7600
Actor, Gamer, Comic, Corporate Nerd
I don't think Tau are overpowered. One thing I'll say for 6th is that most of the codexes have been pretty balanced, if not always fluffy (damn it chaos), which is a nice change of pace.
Many people have hit the nail on the head here with why tau are regarded as OP, while Eldar are not. Hardly anybody likes fighting a gun line, and tau tend to win big (nobody reaches assault, and the list was assault focused) or have a close game. It's rare to see a tau list just get curb stomped, because they always get at least 2 turns of pretty impressive weapons fire.
That said, they are not anywhere near op. siren bomb, iron warriors, or Eldar from 3rd were op. gk and arguably necrons from 5th were borderline op, but even they were defeatable. Tau are just less fun to lose to than say, nids or orks
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/05 01:34:27
The problem I find is that tau's weakness is close combat yet you can almost never make it to close combat. I play wolves and I find that I never have enough bodies to make it into combat and still live. I'm not the most competitive player but I can realize that there is some bs here. Just the other day, a crisis suit commander killed my thunderlord in close combat. I did something right finally and then lost when it came down to it. I have regularly been tabled by the end of turn four after killing about 5 people. Every game where he gets to go first, I know the game is over before it starts. He has killed 8 out of 10 terminators deep striking with one riptide shot.
It's all about the terrain in this edition (in my limited experience). Make sure there are no positions where either player can just sit and have open avenues of fire to all parts of the board. LOS blocking terrain is a must, as much as possible. Place a large cardboard box in the middle of the table if you have to. A gun-line player of any sort is never going to do this themselves (why would they?), but you will instantly find that you both are having more interesting games.
Tau are a good book, I wouldn't say they were a game breaking book, they don't have any units that quite break the game the way for example the helldrake did.
In my experience Tau have been rather dull to play against (I play Dark Eldar). Here's why:
1) Everyone and there brother has jumped on the Tau bandwagon, this means 1 out of 3 of my games is against Tau. This can make playing them quite repetitive.
2) The book encourages players to sit back and shoot and not play the game. I would say most of the tau players I have encountered adopt this boring static gunline play, and the changes to marker light encourages this. You don't even need to move out and claim objectives if you can just shoot people off them.
3) Tau is a very beginner friendly army, now this is not to say the Tau codex doesn't have a high skill ceiling, it's just that an average player can do quite well with the gunline playstyle as a result innovative play is not encouraged. If you can beat most players around your skill level by sitting back and shooting why change anything?
4) So far I have won all my games against Tau bar one (using Dark Eldar), what bothers me is each time I feel my opponents clearly had the tools to beat me but had no initiative, no creativity and relied massively on list building in order to win. When their sit there and shoot strategy stops working they just fall to pieces.
Now a lot of the same things could be said about imperial guard, but this goes back to my first point tau are really popular at the moment so people play tau more than they probably want to, combine this with a lot of players not knowing how to deal with tau and a lot of tau players using a very static shooting playstyle and you will get internet "hate".
Can Tau be fun to play against? Sure they have some great potential to play very dynamically, stealth teams with counter fire defence and kroot bait, piranha blocking, aggressive mechanised fire warriors, mobile broadsides with marker support moving into the midfield and so on.
For all the mobility in the new book, GW made the tau static gunline look so much better on paper, as a result your average Tau opponent sits in his deployment zone, guiding and presciencing his riptides with a bunch of broadsides behind an aegis until turn 5 when his windrider jetbikes capture some objectives.
The problem isn't that it's unbeatable, far from it, it's just boring as hell to play against. Playing against it every three games only compounds the matter.
I do agree that most standard Tau lists are very boring to play against, as already mentioned sitting back and unloading a god-like amount of shots at your opponent is a scary things to face. However that is why I am going with a pure Battle Suit list in part for fluff, its decently competitive, and there will be a lot of "jumping around" making the movement phase key as I would probably shoot myself if I just sat back and rolled dice all game
19th Krieg Siege Army 7500pts.
40k/HH Night Lords 5000pts.
Orks Waaaghmacht Spearhead 2500pts.
OP if you are interested in learning how to combat tau I would take some example lists and a list of your models over to the list building sub-forum. I would also suggest a less inflammatory title and statements as such statements will attract large numbers of "Tau are OP!!!" and people who disagree with you. Either way it will clutter any discussion on how to deal with tau.
As for this thread I believe some of the stuff in the tau dex is somewhat over costed;
-vespids are a cool model that I never see due to poor rules and worse points pricing
-perhaps stealth teams as they never seem to get taken
and others are under costed;
-velocity tracker should change price with the unit it goes on as these are much better on broadsides and riptides than flakk missiles are on every SM -riptides are under costed by a pretty significant amount, I'm sure people will argue but it is obvious if you look at how many are taken to a tournament setting
-suit command teams probably should have been capped in size at a much lower number to avoid farsight/shadowsun bombs from getting out of hand
I would however say that none of this is particularly beyond handling with a decent TAC list. I consider the new Tau book to be a big step up as the old dex had 1 build that was even decent and you never saw a different build. I now see at least 3 different builds in the competitive bracket.
The real problem is that the old SM builds that were good in 4e/5e are not good anymore against most of the 6e meta. New non traditional lists are starting to see light with drop pod BoD fortresses, LR spam, land speeder spam (yes you would be shocked how good this list can do), and RW.
I see alot of stuff about Tau missile spam but nothing about the fact it has a grand 36" range? This means that a traditional Tau list that wants to deploy at distance has to deploy somewhere ~12" from the board edge.
I will abstain from further commentary of this thread but there has been a huge amount of misinformation thrown out here about Tau durability and DA offense/defense.
jifel wrote: Tau aren't broken however. They're as prone to bad luck as all armies, and can be countered by quite a few current good lists, like Daemons and some Crons.
I agree with this. Certain Daemon builds in particular are very difficult to beat especially if things don't go your way with dice there's practically no recovery...you're done if those FMCs or flesh hounds hit your lines. Support fire and snapshots will not save you.
Competitively speaking...mono Tau isn't the powerhouse TAC list. I think you will see Tau+Eldar or Eldar+Tau varieties being the most frequent in the top 10.
Space marines book is showing its age. Their new book is right around the corner and they always get good stuff. So, hopefully the marine whinging vs. Tau will lessen soon.
I play:
40K: Daemons, Tau
AoS: Blades of Khorne, Disciples of Tzeentch
Warmachine: Convergence of Cyriss
Infinity: Haqqislam, Tohaa
Malifaux: Bayou
Star Wars Legion: Republic & Separatists
MESBG: Far Harad, Misty Mountains
I agree with this. Certain Daemon builds in particular are very difficult to beat especially if things don't go your way with dice there's practically no recovery...you're done if those FMCs or flesh hounds hit your lines. Support fire and snapshots will not save you.
Problem with this is that even though Daemons can beat a broad range of stuff (including the Tau Master Race), they can only do this when all the stars align and the Dice Gods smile down to the player. A CD army with all the right rolls is unbeatable. A CD army with random rolls all around the place is a free kill. So personally, I say arguing that the Tau is not OP only because the CD can beat it is kinda' off the mark. Oh yeah, it can... roughly 50% of the times. On the other hand, the Tau army will have a similar efficiency, giving a much better average.
-vespids are a cool model that I never see due to poor rules and worse points pricing
-perhaps stealth teams as they never seem to get taken
and others are under costed.
This is only an excuse for people who need to win with plastic toy soldiers. GW as we know is never "balanced". Can GW really be at fault? From what I here, Privateer Press is extremely balanced and still alot of people only take one or two builds because of "cost effectiveness". So it's not only GW. Even if GW "balanced" everything people will still take the "best units" and people will still be complaining.
So what it comes too is it's not GW fault, it's just people need to "win" with plastic toy soldiers. It's just like saying guns kill. Is it the guns fault or the people who use them?
Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.
Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?
Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".
Tau are a good book, I wouldn't say they were a game breaking book, they don't have any units that quite break the game the way for example the helldrake did.
In my experience Tau have been rather dull to play against (I play Dark Eldar). Here's why:
1) Everyone and there brother has jumped on the Tau bandwagon, this means 1 out of 3 of my games is against Tau. This can make playing them quite repetitive.
2) The book encourages players to sit back and shoot and not play the game. I would say most of the tau players I have encountered adopt this boring static gunline play, and the changes to marker light encourages this. You don't even need to move out and claim objectives if you can just shoot people off them.
3) Tau is a very beginner friendly army, now this is not to say the Tau codex doesn't have a high skill ceiling, it's just that an average player can do quite well with the gunline playstyle as a result innovative play is not encouraged. If you can beat most players around your skill level by sitting back and shooting why change anything?
4) So far I have won all my games against Tau bar one (using Dark Eldar), what bothers me is each time I feel my opponents clearly had the tools to beat me but had no initiative, no creativity and relied massively on list building in order to win. When their sit there and shoot strategy stops working they just fall to pieces.
Now a lot of the same things could be said about imperial guard, but this goes back to my first point tau are really popular at the moment so people play tau more than they probably want to, combine this with a lot of players not knowing how to deal with tau and a lot of tau players using a very static shooting playstyle and you will get internet "hate".
Can Tau be fun to play against? Sure they have some great potential to play very dynamically, stealth teams with counter fire defence and kroot bait, piranha blocking, aggressive mechanised fire warriors, mobile broadsides with marker support moving into the midfield and so on.
For all the mobility in the new book, GW made the tau static gunline look so much better on paper, as a result your average Tau opponent sits in his deployment zone, guiding and presciencing his riptides with a bunch of broadsides behind an aegis until turn 5 when his windrider jetbikes capture some objectives.
The problem isn't that it's unbeatable, far from it, it's just boring as hell to play against. Playing against it every three games only compounds the matter.
This is exactly what the OP was trying to say.
Jollydevil wrote: In my eyes, every weapon is special.
No weapon left behind.
A GumyBear wrote: I mop the floors with Tau when I play BT the concept of beating them is quite simple. Just take a ton of squads of 5 neophytes and 5 initiates all with BP and CCW maybe a flamer or meltagun in drop pods and then laugh at the tau since you get to stay bunkered down inside your pods for a turn then assault the next and if your entire army is in pods you have just won since the tau can do nothing in CC and struggle against mech armies. They will be unable to touch most of the pods that land then you get the alpha strike with the horde of marines clubbing baby seals in a leather sack
I looked into this a bit because I had never heard of this. The FAQ for BT does in fact permit this RAW.
Regardless, I don't think I would be comfortable playing Drop Pods in this way, as much as I would love to, without feeling like TFG. It's pretty clear GW just botched up the FAQ and has not updated it, which is honestly no surprise since they don't really care about BT. A Drop Pod is a Drop Pod, and since they updated every other previously different aspect to pre 5e Drop Pod rules, it is not out of the question to play it as such.
Back on topic, there are probably things I could do better against Tau as a whole since my primary lists/strategies are not seeing success- the problem is this won't change the fact I just don't enjoy playing against them. Similar to IG gunlines, it's an army that just lacks a lot of variety- sit back and shoot buckets of dice at your opponent. Bleh.
In my opinion, MEQ armies are actually really starting to suffer in this edition. I remember when being T4 and having a 3+ made you tough as nails. Paying the points for this luxury was worth it. The trend with the 3 most recent Xenos books (Necron, Tau, Eldar) is to just dump so many high STR shots at infantry the toughness is irrelevant, and you WILL roll 1's and 2's via weight of fire.
They made this edition SO shooty that MEQ troops are actually now terrible. It is far more effective to have cheap troops that are expendable. You don't care if the same amount of firepower is coming at you, since the models are more abundant.
I don't think the Vanilla book is going to change this. This may very well be the turning point where MEQ is relegated to Ally fodder/mid-low tier armies. An odd move for GW's cash cow/baby
A GumyBear wrote: I mop the floors with Tau when I play BT the concept of beating them is quite simple. Just take a ton of squads of 5 neophytes and 5 initiates all with BP and CCW maybe a flamer or meltagun in drop pods and then laugh at the tau since you get to stay bunkered down inside your pods for a turn then assault the next and if your entire army is in pods you have just won since the tau can do nothing in CC and struggle against mech armies. They will be unable to touch most of the pods that land then you get the alpha strike with the horde of marines clubbing baby seals in a leather sack
I looked into this a bit because I had never heard of this. The FAQ for BT does in fact permit this RAW.
Regardless, I don't think I would be comfortable playing Drop Pods in this way, as much as I would love to, without feeling like TFG. It's pretty clear GW just botched up the FAQ and has not updated it, which is honestly no surprise since they don't really care about BT. A Drop Pod is a Drop Pod, and since they updated every other previously different aspect to pre 5e Drop Pod rules, it is not out of the question to play it as such.
Back on topic, there are probably things I could do better against Tau as a whole since my primary lists/strategies are not seeing success- the problem is this won't change the fact I just don't enjoy playing against them. Similar to IG gunlines, it's an army that just lacks a lot of variety- sit back and shoot buckets of dice at your opponent. Bleh.
In my opinion, MEQ armies are actually really starting to suffer in this edition. I remember when being T4 and having a 3+ made you tough as nails. Paying the points for this luxury was worth it. The trend with the 3 most recent Xenos books (Necron, Tau, Eldar) is to just dump so many high STR shots at infantry the toughness is irrelevant, and you WILL roll 1's and 2's via weight of fire.
They made this edition SO shooty that MEQ troops are actually now terrible. It is far more effective to have cheap troops that are expendable. You don't care if the same amount of firepower is coming at you, since the models are more abundant.
I don't think the Vanilla book is going to change this. This may very well be the turning point where MEQ is relegated to Ally fodder/mid-low tier armies. An odd move for GW's cash cow/baby
1d4chan's prophecy of the Necrons replacing the Space Marines as the face of 40k is becoming true!
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
Power armour being low on the totem pole was actually the way it was in 2nd edition too. IMO the thing that really hurt the game in 3rd edition was making marines a more powerful book-- you got lots more experienced players playing some variety of marines which made for rather stilted statistics w/r/t armies played. I'd much more prefer perfect balance, but barring that I'd rather have power armour armies be weaker and thus somewhat rare (with various xenos armies filling in the gaps) than be too strong and have it feel like 2/3rds of the armies you're playing are MEQs.
If our club was a stilted a playing field as was common in 3rd ed (i.e. mostly MEQs vs. the single MEQ army we have playing among the 6 of us) I think we would have gotten border and started playing something else instead. Marines IMO have a pretty awful backstory, and having them show up with the kind of regularity they have just seems odd since they are supposed to be rare special forces.
Frankly, a tough battle for me is a fun battle. I like being forced to think.
Gods? There are no gods. Merely existences, obstacles to overcome.
"And what if I told you the Wolves tried to bring a Legion to heel once before? What if that Legion sent Russ and his dogs running, too ashamed to write down their defeat in Imperial archives?" - ADB
I will tell you guys how to deal with tau.
Objective games. They suck at them. place objective to where you can hide from tau shooting and just play the waiting game
hotsauceman1 wrote: I will tell you guys how to deal with tau.
Objective games. They suck at them. place objective to where you can hide from tau shooting and just play the waiting game
If you're in cover, the Tau can remove it, if both of you are camping out of LoS doing nothing, you have somehow invented a game more boring than monopoly.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I will tell you guys how to deal with tau.
Objective games. They suck at them. place objective to where you can hide from tau shooting and just play the waiting game
If you're in cover, the Tau can remove it, if both of you are camping out of LoS doing nothing, you have somehow invented a game more boring than monopoly.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I will tell you guys how to deal with tau.
Objective games. They suck at them. place objective to where you can hide from tau shooting and just play the waiting game
If you're in cover, the Tau can remove it, if both of you are camping out of LoS doing nothing, you have somehow invented a game more boring than monopoly.
Tau vs. IG
Okay that made me laugh, have an exalt.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
Tau can remove cover, yes. But it's from either a T3 5+ unit or a unit filled with T4 4+ models. Neither of those is hard to remove.
But Tau are not that great at grabbing objectives. High cost transport and weak troops make it pretty simple to land on more objectives than your opponent.
Seriously though, is this thread against gunlines or Tau. Cause I play fairly mobile and dynamic Tau and am getting a bit upset to have my army refered to as the new "easy mode" or "newb proof" army or that it just wouldn't be fun to play against me. Cause I had plenty of games in late 5th edition where GK and SW players had fun playing me and all they had to do was hide and lob S8+ weapons at my few suits all day long. Maybe it's wrong to compare the effectiveness of a codex made for a certain edition against one that's pretty out of date. I know that Deamons, Necrons, DA, and CSM seem to be fairly balanced against Tau and have been my harder match ups.
I'm expecting an Imperial Knights supplement dedicated to GW's loyalist apologetics. Codex: White Knights "In the grim dark future, everything is fine."
"The argument is that we have to do this or we will, bit by bit,
lose everything that we hold dear, everything that keeps the business going. Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky."
-Tom Kirby
Savageconvoy wrote: Tau can remove cover, yes. But it's from either a T3 5+ unit or a unit filled with T4 4+ models. Neither of those is hard to remove.
But Tau are not that great at grabbing objectives. High cost transport and weak troops make it pretty simple to land on more objectives than your opponent.
Seriously though, is this thread against gunlines or Tau. Cause I play fairly mobile and dynamic Tau and am getting a bit upset to have my army refered to as the new "easy mode" or "newb proof" army or that it just wouldn't be fun to play against me. Cause I had plenty of games in late 5th edition where GK and SW players had fun playing me and all they had to do was hide and lob S8+ weapons at my few suits all day long. Maybe it's wrong to compare the effectiveness of a codex made for a certain edition against one that's pretty out of date. I know that Deamons, Necrons, DA, and CSM seem to be fairly balanced against Tau and have been my harder match ups.
Gunline armies as a whole are no fun, why do you think world wae 1 RTS games are so rare?
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
Seriously though, is this thread against gunlines or Tau. Cause I play fairly mobile and dynamic Tau and am getting a bit upset to have my army refered to as the new "easy mode" or "newb proof" army or that it just wouldn't be fun to play against me. Cause I had plenty of games in late 5th edition where GK and SW players had fun playing me and all they had to do was hide and lob S8+ weapons at my few suits all day long. Maybe it's wrong to compare the effectiveness of a codex made for a certain edition against one that's pretty out of date. I know that Deamons, Necrons, DA, and CSM seem to be fairly balanced against Tau and have been my harder match ups.
It's the gunline. When people think of Necrons, they immediately assume Flyerspam / Wraithspam. When people think Tau, they immediately think gunline. It's a lot of over-generalization that's happening in such discussions and while I do agree that Tau are slightly over the top, that's, as usual 1-2 units that should be notched down and we're good. And really, I think they, just as Necrons, deserve this after being an auto-win for so long.
I've played the new Tau a few times, I've never found them to be too difficult, I'd say I have more wins than losses (although probably a narrow margin).
I currently play Mixed Wing DA and my lists are not competitive really, I just play what I like or is fluffy. (Fluff Bunny btw.)
Also as good as the new Tau are shooting, I've never really been in a game or even witnessed many where they truly dominated the shooting phase over an opponent, I've even outshot them on occassion (I don't even use Banner of Devastation.)
They are a good army and there are a few gripes I have about the book (Riptide, again not rules, I just think it's too strange/dumb.), but in reality I wouldn't say it's any more OP than any other. The only thing annoying me in terms of rules just now is Wave Serpents but even then it's not so bad I'd go on about it.
Also I find Tau are pretty bad on the objective side of things, they struggle to take and hold objectives and in some games that alone can be punishing when it comes to the end game point total.
Once we had a gunline Death Korps vs Gunline Tau game with near total LOS blockage that funneled anything thatbpassed into a no mans land where pretty much every long range gun could fire at the passerby.
So we spent like a half hour shouting variations of "Come at me bro!" At each other before realizing this was going nowhere fast.
Of course this was against my wife and we were gak faced, singing, slurring words drunk
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/05 18:07:46
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
19th Krieg Siege Army 7500pts.
40k/HH Night Lords 5000pts.
Orks Waaaghmacht Spearhead 2500pts.
5000pts 
6000pts 
3000pts
'I'm like a man with a fork, in a world of soup.'