dlight wrote:
Nah, I would say the same thing about Tau. There is a reason so many people are screaming about them.

 Desubot wrote:

dlight wrote:
Nah, I would say the same thing about Tau. There is a reason so many people are screaming about them.

Like what and how?

Honestly every tau thread iv seen has almost always boiled down to i cant kill riptides even then we try to explain to ignore them and kill the supports and troops.

They are monsters when they are properly supported which greatly increases the points cost per riptide but that argument gets ignored forever.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:
I partially agree with Xenosterminus.

In regards to the Riptide, I'm just going to quote myself.

Although I'd already decided upon it before, my opinion that Riptides are the most broken and dumb unit in 40k at present has been reinforced. They're just ridiculous. For 200 or less points, you have an almost impossible to kill unit that does absolutely everything. High strength, AP2 pie plates? Yeah. Melta gun for heavy AT? Yeah. Effective AA? Yeah. Nightfighting? Range? Whats that? Oh, you're going to plan to shoot from a distance/assault me? I get a 2D6 jump pack move, so screw you.

12 Lascannon shots at BS4 (aka taking 3 Devastator squads fully tooled up with them) results in an average 4.444 (possibly plus a bit) wounds against a Riptide in each shooting phase. Bearing in mind this thing has a 72'' range and massive height, can jump on buildings and jump down to get LOS on anywhere on the board and abuse cover saves, AND the fact my calculations take into account that the Riptide hasn't gone for the 3++ (in which case, 2.222 wounds) you are basically boned using Devastators. You'll fire once, then he'll drop a pie plate on one of your Devastator squads, and if you even suffer 2 deaths (which is pretty likely), your wound output goes down to 3.704 average. You need to kill these things fast. If he has two, or even three, what the hell are you going to do?

You just devoted the entirety of your 450 point fire support reserves to wounding one 185 point model. Well done.

The only solution I can think of is drop podding Company Vets/equivalents with 10 Combi Plasmas, hoping you get within range and that he hasn't bubble wrapped. If you rapid fire all of them, you've got 5.926 average wounds, or average dead. On the other hand, you now have a 300+ pt squad of 2 attack Tactical Marines that are worthless at anything else, that will inevitably meet the bad end of a metric ton of pulse rifle shots. The fact that you're almost paying double the price of the Riptide just to remove a sub 200 pt model is ridiculous.

You can't ignore it. It can shoot at you 99% of the time, with a S8 AP2 pie plate that will obliterate your infantry. Unless your opponent is a complete idiot you will never charge it, because a competent player will abuse its movement+2D6 (or if he NR's, 3D6) jump to put him miles away from your assault units, if he doesn't already have a bubble wrap. He'll probably be on the other side of the table.

They invalidate Space Marine mechanized armies. You want to know what my 40 Marines in my Dark Angel army would do if they all rapid fired at 12'' at a Riptide?

With the bolters, average 2 wounds.
With the plasma guns, average 2.37 wounds.

You are never, ever, ever, going to get 40 Marines within rapid fire range of a Riptide owned by a competent player. Even if you do you won't kill it in one turn on average, and then that Riptide and the rest of his army is going to either be A) Sitting on or taking the objectives or B) Massacring you with fire.

When I look at my IG, Marines and Ork Codexes, I have to think, 'man, how am I going to set this army up? where's the killy stuff? how do I do W,X and Y without sacrificing Z?'

Usually, that's 'how do I kill tanks, how do I kill MC's, how do I kill flyers, without sacrificing scoring capability too much or list structure/reliability?'

A Tau player can start his list by going 'Oh, this Riptide can have a Velocity tracker, and handle everything. In fact, lets have two. Scoring units, damn. Oh, I know, Fire Warriors, they can start shooting effective fire from turn 1, and they're 54 points starting price. Easy. '

And the most important question, the entire reason for playing the hobby in the first place:

I do not find it fun in the slightest to play someone who can wipe me off the board while I barely get to scratch most of his army. If that's the case, whats the point of unpacking your models?

I've yet to see anyone come up with a compelling argument against this.

Kangodo wrote:

Compared to other MC's from almost every army it's quite the insane model.
T6 with 2+/5++ and possible FNP?
I don't even have that on the MC's that WANT to get close.
Imagine how you would feel if Terminators suddenly get T6 and jump packs.

XenosTerminus wrote:
ok, so in retrospect I realize that I lost my cool here, so I will man up and apologize for being rude. I do appreciate the advice, I am just frustrated because my two MEQ armies, combined with the models I physically own, are seeing no success against Tau regardless of my tactics.

BT is basically a lost cause as discussed (being antiquated, and their strengths designed around 4e/assault).

Let me explain why I also believe DA has very little to combat Tau with a few exceptions:

DA's strengths, really, are Bikes and Terminators. Terminators aren't terribly competitive anymore and are generally overcosted for the firepower they bring to the table. Tau also have no issues murdering them, so I don't believe Deathwing lists are really viable.

Bikes are promising, but they suffer because Tau can just remove their cover saves and kill them easily. The PFG is nice, but can only cover so many models.

Whirlwinds are good for taking out Tau Infantry for sure, but that won't win me the game alone, especially if the Troops are in Devilfish.

I have honestly struggled with DA against most armies- the book is just so mediocre overall compared to what else has come out in 6e- it's just mint flavored vanilla marines with a few gimmicks thrown in, and has likely once again been relegated to being a test bed for the new vanilla marine book.

So really, my frustration is probably tied to the fact Tau are very good at killing Marines- 2 of my armies I have played since 4e and spent the most time building/painting/playing. It's like he doesn't even need to try to kill them. I don't know if I can counter that without buying different models to confront his weaknesses/try different strategies, but I really don't want to do that just because of Tau.

 Desubot wrote:
If the next space marine codex has anything to say about it, they proablbly will
Edit: there are supposed to be marines in marine suits that are ether FA or HS so who knows :p
But compared to other MC's it has piss poor aim (bs3 (not really that bad but not great) and fights like a old (I2) lady (ws2)
The thing is just damn resilient.

 Desubot wrote:

Kangodo wrote:

Compared to other MC's from almost every army it's quite the insane model.
T6 with 2+/5++ and possible FNP?
I don't even have that on the MC's that WANT to get close.
Imagine how you would feel if Terminators suddenly get T6 and jump packs.

If the next space marine codex has anything to say about it, they proablbly will
Edit: there are supposed to be marines in marine suits that are ether FA or HS so who knows :p
But compared to other MC's it has piss poor aim (bs3 (not really that bad but not great) and fights like a old (I2) lady (ws2)
The thing is just damn resilient.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Tau with Riptide spam just won singles ETC. Just sayin'.

XenosTerminus wrote:
Now, I am sure my list could 'be more optimized'- that's not the point here.

Kangodo wrote:
Well, you CAN complain.
It shouldn't take a top tier 'competitive list' to beat an average list.

Kangodo wrote:
Well, you CAN complain.
It shouldn't take a top tier 'competitive list' to beat an average list.

XenosTerminus wrote:
Ok, so I got in another game against my buddies Tau.

First off he is now aware of his markerlight oversight, so that has been corrected.

I told him to bring a mostly competitive list but not go too overboard. I brought Dark Angels.

Here is my list:

Azrael

Librarian (he rolled the ignore cover blessing and I took Prescience)
+Bike
+Power Field Generator
+Mastery Level 2

PFG is pointless, the Bikes get a consistent 5+ jink if you move and a 4+ if you turboboost.

Command Squad (They podded with Azrael)
+4x Flamers
+Power Fist
+Standard of Fortitude

Personally I would have taken either meltaguns or plasmas instead, preference on the latter. You would have shaved most of the wounds off the Riptide easily that way.

The standard here is pretty pointless. I wouldn't even take an Apothecary, they're a suicide unit, they're going to die anyway. In this regard I see it as extremely inadvisable to throw in a 200 point character with them as well.

Tactical Squad in a Rhino
+Plasma Gun
+Lascannon

If you take Tac Squads in Rhinos take at least 4, or none at all. They die far too easily and give up first blood with ease.

2x Scout Squads
+Sniper Rifles
+Missile Launcher
+Camo Cloaks

Scout Snipers suck. As in, they're abysmal. Never take them unless you're running minimized troops for an out-of-troops gimmick list or supporting DW.

Ravenwing Assault Squad of 6 with a Multi-melta attack bike (Librarian went here)
+2x Meltaguns

Melta's pretty naff in this edition, you'd be better off with plasma. Black Knights rip Riptides to pieces and are more survivable, especially if you bring an LSS.

Deathwing Knights

Did you put a locator beacon on your Azrael drop pod? the one-two punch is quite effective if these guys DWA turn 2.

Venerable Dread in a pod- Plasma Cannon and Heavy Flamer

I'd replace the PC with an assault cannon or multi melta. This unit is pretty naff in general.

Devastators- 2x Missile Launchers, 2x Plasma Cannons

Don't ever go both ways. You're not Wolves, you can't splitfire, so only half of the weapons in the squad can be effective at whatever you shoot. I'd take 4 ML's or 4 Lascannons. Plasma Cannons are naff vs Riptides.

2x Whirlwinds

Another bucket full of naff. I'd take either:

Ravenwing Support Speeders with dual heavy flamers - if you deepstrike onto the locator beacon no scatter bubble, you can annihilate a FW unit. Also only 60 points, so its cheaper than a Whirlie.

Alternatively, an assault squad with just two flamers, sergeant with combi-flamer and a drop pod. It comes to a ridiculously cheap 105 points.

I'll try to summarize what he took the best I can

Commander with a 2+, and the ability to forgo shooting to let something ignore cover. He went with 3 other suits all with missiles and some drones

2 groups of pathfinders

2 Devilfish with Fire Warriors inside

Riptide with the usual cheese

Ion Head

Long Strike

2 groups of kroot with snipers/1 hound

Skyray

Stealth Suit squad of 3

A Sunshark


My basic strategy was to get in his face quickly. It was objectives, so I concentrated all of my forces closest to where the 3 met, with the long range support back field. He reserved his Pathfinders as not to get nuked by the Whirlwinds- this is important, because the outcome was surprising EVEN WITHOUT the markers pretty much all game.

He took turn 1. He concentrated a lot of firepower on my bikes, taking them down to 4 members and a wounded Librarian. That was about it. I used the homer on the bikes to put the pod w/azzy down and deploy towards a lot of his parked tanks. The Knights also deployed in a similar fashion. I managed to assault and kill longstrike with my bikes, and wound the riptide a few times with snipers/devs.

The next turn nothing spectacular happened- casualties here and there. I managed to nuke his skyray with a melta from the bikes as it tried to get away (pretty lucky- needed a 5 since it was outside 12). At this point I was thinking I had this. I controlled an area near most of the objectives and he was on the run. My troops were all in great spots in either cover or near objectives for late grabs. I could camp it out with the troops and pressure him with my 'expendable' units, like the command squad, the dread, etc.

It quickly spiraled out of control. Tau mobility is ludicrous, especially against Marines. He gunned down my bikes, so I lost my fastest unit quickly. Basically the rest of the game turned into my assault units failing to ever catch up to so many skimmers and suits, while he moved around and shot dozens of missiles and burst cannons at my troops. It ended on turn 6 with a table.

Now, I am sure my list could 'be more optimized'- that's not the point here. As I originally stated, I am having trouble against ANY Tau list, regardless what I bring with what I physically own. He didn't fire off a single markerlight. He either ignored it outright with missiles, or just weight of fired me to death so it didn't matter.

So I ask- what now? Keep asking him to bring crappier and crappier lists? That doesn't really sound very enjoyable.

Basically my opinion stands (even if I need to play more games against them)- Tau is just not fun to fight against. Thoughts? Advice? Opinions? Flames?

XenosTerminus wrote:
Well that's refreshing. Being told that the list you took is absolute crap and your unit choices are 'bad'. That's what is wrong with this game.

If you can't bring a relatively balanced list and expect to do at least decently against another army without catering your choices (you basically told me to spam things to help kill the riptide, or avoid things because they aren't 'optimal'.

XenosTerminus wrote:
I said relatively balanced- and try not to sound so arrogant with a definitive description on what is or is not 'balanced'. That is your opinion.

It had a good amount of long range shooting, support, things to deal with infantry in cover, assault elements, etc. All of the units themselves may not be what is considered competitive or optimal, but from a marine perspective it had tools to deal with a wide range of targets.

A list like mine would be just fine against an opponent who didn't bring their A game so to speak. The issue is that even when Tau doesn't bring an optimal list (he didn't) I still struggle. I was very successful in 5th edition and before Tau, even with lists like that.